off topic True Detective

[qwksndmonster]

I thought this most recent episode (with The Eyes Wide Shut party) was pretty good.

 

Still pretty lukewarm about the show.

The opening scene between Velcoro and Frank was awesome.  I have no idea why they broke it up into two parts (the ~40 second scene where Paul and Anti ponder the bloody chair in the torture shack interrupts it).  I would have opened the episode with the entire scene uninterrupted.  (something to revisit once the season is complete)

 

The party was very tense and had so many story points intersecting with Anti (emotionally and otherwise).  Too bad they couldn't give Velcoro and Paul something emotionally connected to the party also, but that's well in line with the over complicated plot issue.

Edited July 30, 2015 by qwksndmonster

[WildCard]

Just caught up on this show; that last episode was nuts! I like how they have 3 characters with enough background depth to make them interesting rather than Russ's insomnia and Harry's infidelity driving the show. Also, Vince Vaughn's character finally got very, very interesting. So far, I like this season much more than the previous. 

Edited August 2, 2015 by WildCard

[sabills]

Just watched the latest episode. It was very good.

 

 

They tied up Paul nicely enough, and he went out like the badass god warrior he is.

 

 

I don't see any of our intrepid crew making it out of this alive. Maybe Ani. I'm also worried that Ray is the only one who didn't make plans for his family.

 

Also, I'm out of town next week, so I have to wait 2 weeks to see the finale! Bullcrap.

[qwksndmonster]

I liked the finale, but I also had huge problems with it as well.  I'll get a long rambly nerd post going here eventually.

[nfreeman]

I thought the finale was by far the best episode.

 

Overall, I'm giving the season a B-minus.  I thought there was a bit too much piling on by TV critics, but overall there were indeed a number of serious flaws.

[Hoss]

I thought the finale was by far the best episode.

 

Overall, I'm giving the season a B-minus. I thought there was a bit too much piling on by TV critics, but overall there were indeed a number of serious flaws.

Agreed for the most part. I thought the season was much better than people let on (in my opinion). I'll give it an even B.

 

DONT READ THE POST BELOW MINE IF YOU HAVENT SEEN THE FINALE.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Hoss

[Fidelio]

For a contra opinion: I was pretty lukewarm about season 1 and I'm finding season 2 similarly meh. I think it's a bit better than Boardwalk Empire, which is the faintest of praise, but much closer to that show than to the high-end HBO shows.

 

OMG BRO, 

No you didn't (shakes finger sassily) 

 

I agree about season 2 of TD.  The pacing and script were disjointed and the actors chemistry wasn't top notch.  

Season 1 however.. well .. what didnt you like about it??

 

But most importantly? HOW DID YOU NOT LOVE BWALK..... ESPECIALLY THE FINAL SEASON.. 

seriously just wanna hear your thoughts.

Just watched episode 4 and 5 today.....gotta say season 2 is growing on me.

 

WAIT HUH? Cohen wrote this song?  That damn priest.. great lyrics, tho I envisioned some embattled former gang or war vet/ lifelong sufferer (guess he is).... not this guy.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

I hope there is a season 3

[nfreeman]

OMG BRO, 

No you didn't (shakes finger sassily) 

 

I agree about season 2 of TD.  The pacing and script were disjointed and the actors chemistry wasn't top notch.  

Season 1 however.. well .. what didnt you like about it??

 

But most importantly? HOW DID YOU NOT LOVE BWALK..... ESPECIALLY THE FINAL SEASON.. 

seriously just wanna hear your thoughts.

 

On Season 1 of TD:  I thought all the Rust Cohle philosophizing was silly BS, and I thought all the mystical yellow king theorizing was just silly.

 

On BE:  I thought it was cliched, predictable, humorless and overall just mediocre. 

 

Now, to be sure, it suffered by comparison with the great HBO shows like The Sopranos and The Wire -- but BE was the show that HBO was rolling out as a successor to those 2 -- and it wasn't even in the same ballpark.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

On Season 1 of TD:  I thought all the Rust Cohle philosophizing was silly BS, and I thought all the mystical yellow king theorizing was just silly.

 

 

I was intrigued by Rust and I like a couple of thoughts that stuck with me........I can be a pretty negative guy at times, so maybe thats why and I like "the silly BS".

[Fidelio]

On Season 1 of TD:  I thought all the Rust Cohle philosophizing was silly BS, and I thought all the mystical yellow king theorizing was just silly.

 

On BE:  I thought it was cliched, predictable, humorless and overall just mediocre. 

 

Now, to be sure, it suffered by comparison with the great HBO shows like The Sopranos and The Wire -- but BE was the show that HBO was rolling out as a successor to those 2 -- and it wasn't even in the same ballpark.

 

Well the nature of philosophy and perception is obviously subjective, so i SHANT argue with you.

 

But.... To me,  the (perceived) transformation of Rusty from an ardent pessimist (resulting from the death of his daughter and the ensuing erosion of his marriage, in tandem with (likely) rewiring of his neural pathways from the persistent use of drugs (most namely meth) causing serious emotional and behavioral disfunction) to slowly beginning to appreciate the mystery of the universe through his obsessive inspection of details pertaining to murders, near death experiences, and ultimately, at the end, an epiphany while he was in a coma that he had shed his body and sense of identity completely, and became one with the "warmth" that he associated with his daughter but with the understanding that it was the greater state of non existence in this realm, and that through his admiring of the stars (metaphorically the great unknown, the great beyond) he had  some sort of incomplete, but newly present awareness of the progression of reality, that it all might be connected, the "oldest story of light and dark", and that in the final moments, he sincerely and openly gestured towards optimism by correcting woody's initial assertion that the dark blanketed the sky, simultaneously signifying his evolution as a character and the infinitely layered dualities of nature... 

 

WELL.... IT MADE ME HEART WARM

 

BE to me was really a cold, harsh but honest look into humanity as it pertains to WILLFUL choices and their consequences. 

I thought the finale was one of the most powerful, satisfying ways to close out an act of expression i have ever seen.

The way that Nucky, this man of power and control, devolved into wandering the boardwalk in dissolution as he once did as a child, the way that he was burdened with the reality of his failures; the pain of leading so many who looked to him for direction astray, that lack of  anything meaningful in his wake and the resulting sense of purposelessness, the awareness that he was in fact a "bad" person and had been responsible for so much destruction for the purpose of his fickle gain, all cascading in his consciousness as his final moments drew near, really struck me.

(That final conversation between him and his brother where he essentially endows upon eli whats left of his material self and they examine their lives together in earnest, sent chills down my spine.)

Then of course, when the young boy who was the son of a woman whose life nucky destroyed before she even had a chance, for the prospects of "advancement"   puts his lights out, as they say, and it literally catches up with him, he fades out realizing in that moment, that at any point along the way, the opportunity for redemption, a "lineage",  was there for the taking and he simply ignored it in favor of perpetuating his empty, Sisyphean, ego driven conquests...

to me it cleverly made the concept of causality, maybe even loosely sin, or good and evil, come to life in world where those words have oft come to mean nothing more than remnants of myth or lofty ideals.  

To me that last episode was top 10 of all film or tv I've watched in my life, and I've watched a lot...

Just my thoughts anyways.

[WildCard]

Just finished the series; man, what an ending. Sorry if I don't read the whole thread, but when 

 

 

Ray says goodbye to his kid, and then later the mother gets the paternity results back that he is the father...that was just so damn sad

 

 

[qwksndmonster]

Ok, nerdlings.  Gramma is asleep and I've got the fire in me for some hefty should-be-a-blog-post season 2 TrueD (trudy) analysis.  Beyond this post are major spoilers, which I am not going bother tagging.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Well the nature of philosophy and perception is obviously subjective, so i SHANT argue with you.

 

But.... To me,  the (perceived) transformation of Rusty from an ardent pessimist (resulting from the death of his daughter and the ensuing erosion of his marriage, in tandem with (likely) rewiring of his neural pathways from the persistent use of drugs (most namely meth) causing serious emotional and behavioral disfunction) to slowly beginning to appreciate the mystery of the universe through his obsessive inspection of details pertaining to murders, near death experiences, and ultimately, at the end, an epiphany while he was in a coma that he had shed his body and sense of identity completely, and became one with the "warmth" that he associated with his daughter but with the understanding that it was the greater state of non existence in this realm, and that through his admiring of the stars (metaphorically the great unknown, the great beyond) he had  some sort of incomplete, but newly present awareness of the progression of reality, that it all might be connected, the "oldest story of light and dark", and that in the final moments, he sincerely and openly gestured towards optimism by correcting woody's initial assertion that the dark blanketed the sky, simultaneously signifying his evolution as a character and the infinitely layered dualities of nature... 

 

WELL.... IT MADE ME HEART WARM

 

BE to me was really a cold, harsh but honest look into humanity as it pertains to WILLFUL choices and their consequences. 

I thought the finale was one of the most powerful, satisfying ways to close out an act of expression i have ever seen.

The way that Nucky, this man of power and control, devolved into wandering the boardwalk in dissolution as he once did as a child, the way that he was burdened with the reality of his failures; the pain of leading so many who looked to him for direction astray, that lack of  anything meaningful in his wake and the resulting sense of purposelessness, the awareness that he was in fact a "bad" person and had been responsible for so much destruction for the purpose of his fickle gain, all cascading in his consciousness as his final moments drew near, really struck me.

(That final conversation between him and his brother where he essentially endows upon eli whats left of his material self and they examine their lives together in earnest, sent chills down my spine.)

Then of course, when the young boy who was the son of a woman whose life nucky destroyed before she even had a chance, for the prospects of "advancement"   puts his lights out, as they say, and it literally catches up with him, he fades out realizing in that moment, that at any point along the way, the opportunity for redemption, a "lineage",  was there for the taking and he simply ignored it in favor of perpetuating his empty, Sisyphean, ego driven conquests...

to me it cleverly made the concept of causality, maybe even loosely sin, or good and evil, come to life in world where those words have oft come to mean nothing more than remnants of myth or lofty ideals.  

To me that last episode was top 10 of all film or tv I've watched in my life, and I've watched a lot...

Just my thoughts anyways.

 

 

Good post man, I felt the same way about Rusts last line in season 1.......I think it was a powerful scene......I though the mass deaths of the characters in season 2 was a direct response to all the complaining that Rust didn't die last year.

[qwksndmonster]

Key:

 

Character name: Antigone Bezzerides

Played by: Rachel McAdams

What I call her: Anti

 

  

----------------------

Character name: Paul Woodrugh

Played by: Taylor Kitsch

What I call him: Taylor Kitsch

 

------------------------------

Character name: Ray Velcoro

Played by: Colin Farrell

What I call him: Velcoro

 

---------------------

Character name: Frank Semyon

Played by: Vince Vaughn

I call him: (Vince Gilligan) Frank

 

[qwksndmonster]

TL;DR: They tried to tell too many stories with too many plot points.  Ultimately it failed, but the final product is full of passion.  They were very careful not to spend time examining themes and character archetypes that were covered in Season 1. I can't help but have respect for that kind of failure.

 

I'm going to outline some of the major themes and plot threads, then I'm going to analyze each character arc and break down what I think they were trying to do (and where they went wrong).

 

The Themes:

 

Major themes present in all 4 main characters' arcs are

1) Identity/Where you come from 

2) Struggling with demons from the past

3) RAAAAAAGE

4) Corruption (both literal and of the soul)

5) Velcoro and Frank both have relationship/sexual reproduction angst - Anti and Taylor Kitsch both have sexual repression/expression angst

 

The Plot Threads:

 

Episode 1- This episode tries to start almost every single thread that ends up being important to the central plot.  It also tries to emotionally establish every main character except for Frank.  What results is probably the worst episode of the season.

 

Anti- She starts her arc with some sexual disagreement with a partner.  Instead of talking about her problems she just pushes him away and puts the blame on him.  Her troubled relationship with her father and sister are separately covered in this episode.  She pushes both of them away, but we get some information about her character from each interaction.  When Anti speaks to her dad, we learn that her mom dies and she blames him for it.  He goes all psychiatrist and tells Anti that her entire personality is all just a criticism of his values. When Anti has sister family time, she unnecessarily uses a police raid to bust up her sister's job (which is a totally legal webcam porn site).  Her sister is reasonably pissed off, to which Anti's response is life criticism.  The way she treats her sister echoes a parent that can't express themselves and tries to force their children to become better people by force.

 

Taylor Kitsch- Wants to get back on the bike, doesn't care for his girlfriend, and is suicidal.  He also has a dark past involving injuries from Iraq.  He accidentally finds Ben Kaspere's body at the end, starting the plot.  That's pretty much it.

 

Velcoro- We learn about his strained relationship (more like a connection that only exists because of the kid) with his ex wife, informed by how terrible a father he is.  We also learn that Velcoro has some very messed up ideas related to what he's owed when somebody "crosses him."  In a flash back we get the story of how he and Frank became boyfriends.  Frank supposedly gave him the name of the man that raped his wife.  The flashback also serves to juxtapose present day burnout Velcoro with clear-eyed rage induced Velcoro of the days of yore.  This was the character I was most intrigued by after the first episode.  Despite (maybe even because of) his brutal retribution against the schoolyard bully.  You get a first hint of how black and white Velcoro has allowed himself to see the world.  "12 years old and you're already evil as f*ck."  Yeah, ok, Velcoro.

 

Frank- The foundation for his character is barely laid in this episode.  Most of Frank's scenes are exposition about this land deal that he's involved in (and the players: Kaspere, Blake, Osip).  What we do learn about Frank is that he's in the money now, but he didn't used to be.  We get some warmth between him and his wife, but also sense some distance there as well.  Frank's character isn't activated until he finds out that Kaspere's dead, so this entire episode isn't really about him.

 

Other stuff we learn:

-Elvis is Anti's partner.  They both go to serve an eviction and Anti gets guilted into looking for a woman's missing sister.

-Dixon is a fat disgusting blob monster (and is also Velcoro's partner).  They both go talk to Kaspere's secretary (who ends up being Kaspere's daughter and the brother of birdman) and check out his house. 

-A bird man has a dead man in his car.  That dead man is Ben Kaspere.

-There are 3 different police departments that all want different things.  They have power over our protagonists and are forcing their hands.

 

 

So you can start seeing the root of the problem.  They tried to roll all of this up into 1 hour of television.  I remember after first watching it I couldn't say if it was bad or good.  There was no context to judge most of the scenes, and juggling 4 different cold openings is really tough for both the viewer and the story teller.  

 

I dig the highway motif.  It's an interesting way of visually communicating "Yes, there's a bunch of plots weaved together, but they're all going to the same place."  Did they deliver on that promise?  Eh, nah.

[sabills]

TL;DR: They tried to tell too many stories with too many plot points.  Ultimately it failed, but the final product is full of passion.  They were very careful not to spend time examining themes and character archetypes that were covered in Season 1. I can't help but have respect for that kind of failure.

 

Pretty much perfectly sums it up for me.

 

I really think, as much as Kitsch did a great job, if they had cut Paul this season would have been a lot better.

[qwksndmonster]

Pretty much perfectly sums it up for me.

 

I really think, as much as Kitsch did a great job, if they had cut Paul this season would have been a lot better.

They could've easily cut his character down to 4 episodes without removing any content from his story.  He and Anti should've been supporting characters (and he definitely could've been cut entirely, as you say).

[Fidelio]

TL;DR: They tried to tell too many stories with too many plot points.  Ultimately it failed, but the final product is full of passion.  They were very careful not to spend time examining themes and character archetypes that were covered in Season 1. I can't help but have respect for that kind of failure.

 

I'm going to outline some of the major themes and plot threads, then I'm going to analyze each character arc and break down what I think they were trying to do (and where they went wrong).

 

The Themes:

 

Major themes present in all 4 main characters' arcs are

1) Identity/Where you come from 

2) Struggling with demons from the past

3) RAAAAAAGE

4) Corruption (both literal and of the soul)

5) Velcoro and Frank both have relationship/sexual reproduction angst - Anti and Taylor Kitsch both have sexual repression/expression angst

 

The Plot Threads:

 

Episode 1- This episode tries to start almost every single thread that ends up being important to the central plot.  It also tries to emotionally establish every main character except for Frank.  What results is probably the worst episode of the season.

 

Anti- She starts her arc with some sexual disagreement with a partner.  Instead of talking about her problems she just pushes him away and puts the blame on him.  Her troubled relationship with her father and sister are separately covered in this episode.  She pushes both of them away, but we get some information about her character from each interaction.  When Anti speaks to her dad, we learn that her mom dies and she blames him for it.  He goes all psychiatrist and tells Anti that her entire personality is all just a criticism of his values. When Anti has sister family time, she unnecessarily uses a police raid to bust up her sister's job (which is a totally legal webcam porn site).  Her sister is reasonably pissed off, to which Anti's response is life criticism.  The way she treats her sister echoes a parent that can't express themselves and tries to force their children to become better people by force.

 

Taylor Kitsch- Wants to get back on the bike, doesn't care for his girlfriend, and is suicidal.  He also has a dark past involving injuries from Iraq.  He accidentally finds Ben Kaspere's body at the end, starting the plot.  That's pretty much it.

 

Velcoro- We learn about his strained relationship (more like a connection that only exists because of the kid) with his ex wife, informed by how terrible a father he is.  We also learn that Velcoro has some very messed up ideas related to what he's owed when somebody "crosses him."  In a flash back we get the story of how he and Frank became boyfriends.  Frank supposedly gave him the name of the man that raped his wife.  The flashback also serves to juxtapose present day burnout Velcoro with clear-eyed rage induced Velcoro of the days of yore.  This was the character I was most intrigued by after the first episode.  Despite (maybe even because of) his brutal retribution against the schoolyard bully.  You get a first hint of how black and white Velcoro has allowed himself to see the world.  "12 years old and you're already evil as f*ck."  Yeah, ok, Velcoro.

 

Frank- The foundation for his character is barely laid in this episode.  Most of Frank's scenes are exposition about this land deal that he's involved in (and the players: Kaspere, Blake, Osip).  What we do learn about Frank is that he's in the money now, but he didn't used to be.  We get some warmth between him and his wife, but also sense some distance there as well.  Frank's character isn't activated until he finds out that Kaspere's dead, so this entire episode isn't really about him.

 

Other stuff we learn:

-Elvis is Anti's partner.  They both go to serve an eviction and Anti gets guilted into looking for a woman's missing sister.

-Dixon is a fat disgusting blob monster (and is also Velcoro's partner).  They both go talk to Kaspere's secretary (who ends up being Kaspere's daughter and the brother of birdman) and check out his house. 

-A bird man has a dead man in his car.  That dead man is Ben Kaspere.

-There are 3 different police departments that all want different things.  They have power over our protagonists and are forcing their hands.

 

 

So you can start seeing the root of the problem.  They tried to roll all of this up into 1 hour of television.  I remember after first watching it I couldn't say if it was bad or good.  There was no context to judge most of the scenes, and juggling 4 different cold openings is really tough for both the viewer and the story teller.  

 

I dig the highway motif.  It's an interesting way of visually communicating "Yes, there's a bunch of plots weaved together, but they're all going to the same place."  Did they deliver on that promise?  Eh, nah.

 Good post.

Nice observation regarding the highway motif.

Maybe its to say:

there is the left handed path, the right handed path, and the middle path.

The handed paths start out maintaining an illusion of linear progression, but dictated by their nature, eventually lead to a revisiting of trodden ground (same mistakes in life, perhaps returning to experience the same life etc.)

It is only the middle path which leads to the escaping/ overcoming/ exodus of the chains of this world/suffering/the circle in a spiral, the wheel within the wheel... aka enlightenment, attainment, conscious evolution/ freedom