John Shannon: "The Sabres would be better not making the playoffs"

[LTS]

Shannon's statement is about as dumb as they come.  This team needs to start developing a winning culture ASAP, and the sooner it starts the better.

 

So.. they could improve 40 points and still not be in the playoffs.  They'd be winning more, in the game more, but still not be in the playoffs.  Remember, they were so bad that a winning culture could still be developed without making the playoffs.

 

94 points last year puts them in 10th just behind Boston.  That's 20 more wins in the season.

[bunomatic]

So.. they could improve 40 points and still not be in the playoffs.  They'd be winning more, in the game more, but still not be in the playoffs.  Remember, they were so bad that a winning culture could still be developed without making the playoffs.

 

94 points last year puts them in 10th just behind Boston.  That's 20 more wins in the season.

Thats a good point. Never thought of it that way but I think even if you are bounced in the first round its benefit to the young guys that have never tasted it is huge. Possibly make them hungrier moving forward ?

[qwksndmonster]

Who is John Shannon again? 

Is he one of the defensemen we signed?

[thesportsbuff]

Shannon's statement is about as dumb as they come.  This team needs to start developing a winning culture ASAP, and the sooner it starts the better.

 

I share this view. 

[Ducky]

They should definitely be trying for the playoffs even if they don't last long. It lets the young ones know what sacrifices need to be done to advance in the playoffs. They'll want to go further the next year. Start playing EVERY game the same way and know what to expect from your team. If you make the playoffs, win or lose, it educates and gives much needed experience to a team.

[Kelly the Dog]

If your goal is to win every single game you play in, how is your goal possibly anything short of making the playoffs or even winning the cup. Even if you cannot reach it, that is your clear goal.

[darksabre]

I'm calling it now - 101 points and the Sabres make the conference finals. I'll decide if they make the Cup finals once we see what final moves GMTM does.

I'm not going that far but I think this season will be like what the locked out 04-05 season should have been.

[beerme1]

I'm not going that far but I think this season will be like what the locked out 04-05 season should have been.

 

 

explain please?

[ubkev]

explain please?

He may be talking about the feeling that the team was poised to turn some heads, but not quite ready yet. Then the next year, after the lockout, they came out like a team that we'd never seen before.

 

I think that's what it's going to be like when it clicks for this group. Especially Reinhart. Growing pains, but they will show us flashes every night. Then next year it's on like Donkey Kong!

[darksabre]

He may be talking about the feeling that the team was poised to turn some heads, but not quite ready yet. Then the next year, after the lockout, they came out like a team that we'd never seen before.

 

I think that's what it's going to be like when it clicks for this group. Especially Reinhart. Growing pains, but they will show us flashes every night. Then next year it's on like Donkey Kong!

You've got it.

[mjd1001]

I think expectations should be ratcheted down a bit here.  There is something to the players needing to get used to each other, and that takes time.  Its not only learning tendencies on the ice of teamates, it is also learning the new 'system' the coach puts in (maybe easy to learn a new system, but it takes time to master it.)  I wouldn't even put it by anyone that getting used to personalities in the locker room can have a SLIGHT impact on a teams performance. That all takes time...mostly mastering what the coaches want you to do and getting used to linemate tendencies.   I'd expect that to not happen right away, and this team starting out slowly. By the end of the year, it will be a lot better, but STILL not to the point of where it will be next season or the season after.

 

This isn't fantasy hockey or NHL whatever for the PS4 or Xbox.

[Doohicksie]

I think the difference here is "hopes" versus "expectations." I don't really expect to win a Stanley Cup this year, or really, that they will even make the playoffs. Still, I'm hoping for both. I do that every year, even last year. I didn't give up on them until 0-for-January.

 

If you're going to bring in a new coach with a new system though, the current situation is ideal. The carryover players will likely, for the most part, eagerly embrace a new system in light of the vacuum that was Nolan's system, and the new players know they will need to adapt and adjust to a new team and a new level of play. With the sacking of CoHo I don't see anyone on the team that will have a problem with that.

 

Things probably won't click right away, but then again, they might. No other team is ahead of the Sabres in the 2015-16 standings so far, so they're definitely in the hunt for now.

[beerme1]

I think expectations should be ratcheted down a bit here.  There is something to the players needing to get used to each other, and that takes time.  Its not only learning tendencies on the ice of teamates, it is also learning the new 'system' the coach puts in (maybe easy to learn a new system, but it takes time to master it.)  I wouldn't even put it by anyone that getting used to personalities in the locker room can have a SLIGHT impact on a teams performance. That all takes time...mostly mastering what the coaches want you to do and getting used to linemate tendencies.   I'd expect that to not happen right away, and this team starting out slowly. By the end of the year, it will be a lot better, but STILL not to the point of where it will be next season or the season after.

 

This isn't fantasy hockey or NHL whatever for the PS4 or Xbox.

 

 

It may not be fantasy hockey, or a console game. Although the blur that has and is happening here sure does make it feel like it doesn't it? :w00t:

But it is still hockey and the talent that has been added should not be undersold. Sure it may take some time to adjust all the different personalities and coaches but it is still hockey and the talent brought in is pretty damn good at it. A slow start likely dims playoff chances this coming season.

I cant disagree with you more though about expectations though, This year? I feel they have a chance. But crap come on, if they don't make it next year this has to be considered a MASSIVE failure and heads should roll. Luckily, I like the architects and I like our chances this year and especially next year and beyond.

 

Lets Go Buffalo

[pi2000]

TM prolly gives them half the season to show something... Then he'll decide which way it goes from there, e.g. being buyers or sellers at the deadline.

 

The thing is tho, there's not much left to sell. Maybe Gorges if he continues to struggle, or somebody like Weber or Foligno could be on the outs.

 

That said I'd be shocked if this team us contending for a playoff spot at the mid way point.

[thesportsbuff]

TM prolly gives them half the season to show something... Then he'll decide which way it goes from there, e.g. being buyers or sellers at the deadline.

 

The thing is tho, there's not much left to sell. Maybe Gorges if he continues to struggle, or somebody like Weber or Foligno could be on the outs.

 

That said I'd be shocked if this team us contending for a playoff spot at the mid way point.

 

Tim has already said in one of his interviews or press conferences that he is "sticking to the plan" and will not make a typical deadline deal that involves giving up assets for a piece that might put us into the playoffs. So I think it's very unlikely that we will be buyers regardless of what the team shows in the first half of the season. 

 

As for selling, we have a few pieces we might be able to move out, depending on the kind of season they are having. Legwand probably has no value, but if he makes the roster and has an OK season, maybe some team would take a chance on him for a late pick. And although I think most here may actually want to keep McGinn, he could probably be parlayed in to a 3rd rounder also.

 

As for the last part of your post though: why?

 

There's no denying the team has been abysmal the past few years, but that was by design. The design has changed. Our top six has actual, real life, bonafide NHLers in it now -- six of them, even! If some want to question O'Reilly's value, fine. If you want to speculate over whether Kane is a problem child, fine. If you want to assume that Eichel will take a while to adjust to the NHL and isn't going to light it up right away, you're probably right. But no matter how you slice it, our Top 6 is lightyears ahead of where it has been since.. I don't know, 2008? 

 

Our defense probably needs a little work to be a real contender, and our goal-tending is of course a bit of a question mark.. but you think they'll be out of contention by the midway point of the season? Sheesh. 

[X. Benedict]

TM prolly gives them half the season to show something... Then he'll decide which way it goes from there, e.g. being buyers or sellers at the deadline.

 

The thing is tho, there's not much left to sell. Maybe Gorges if he continues to struggle, or somebody like Weber or Foligno could be on the outs.

 

That said I'd be shocked if this team us contending for a playoff spot at the mid way point.

MIdway is pretty early to count anyone out of the playoff conversation. 

 

Buffalo was 14-24-3 31 pts midway last year. 

But being just 4 games better in the first half puts a team in the conversation   18-20-3  39 pts. 

[LTS]

Thats a good point. Never thought of it that way but I think even if you are bounced in the first round its benefit to the young guys that have never tasted it is huge. Possibly make them hungrier moving forward ?

 

Sure, I think you can say they'd be hungrier going forward, but even just missing should keep them hungry and by just missing they do have a shot at the top 3 in the draft.  

 

TM prolly gives them half the season to show something... Then he'll decide which way it goes from there, e.g. being buyers or sellers at the deadline.

 

The thing is tho, there's not much left to sell. Maybe Gorges if he continues to struggle, or somebody like Weber or Foligno could be on the outs.

 

That said I'd be shocked if this team us contending for a playoff spot at the mid way point.

 

Unless this team somehow is near the top of the league near the trade deadline there's little chance Murray is buying.  This entire season is tweak mode.

[MattPie]

I'm calling it now - 101 points and the Sabres make the conference finals.  I'll decide if they make the Cup finals once we see what final moves GMTM does.

 

nobody is calling the Sabres in the conference finals.

[woods-racer]

nobody is calling the Sabres in the conference finals.

 

nobody has the gall to do that.

[LGR4GM]

Jack Eichel wins the Calder and the Conn Smythe Trophy.  They should just put his name on them now.  

In all honesty, as long as the show significant improvement over last year we should be very happy. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by LGR4GM

[Fidelio]

 

 

As for the last part of your post though: why?

 

There's no denying the team has been abysmal the past few years, but that was by design. The design has changed. Our top six has actual, real life, bonafide NHLers in it now -- six of them, even! If some want to question O'Reilly's value, fine. If you want to speculate over whether Kane is a problem child, fine. If you want to assume that Eichel will take a while to adjust to the NHL and isn't going to light it up right away, you're probably right. But no matter how you slice it, our Top 6 is lightyears ahead of where it has been since.. I don't know, 2008? 

 

Our defense probably needs a little work to be a real contender, and our goal-tending is of course a bit of a question mark.. but you think they'll be out of contention by the midway point of the season? Sheesh. 

 

You should want them to be out of contention. You should want them to score a ton of goals, suck on defense outside of Risto and Pysyk, and suck in goal despite the idea that it confirms wasting of assets (lets just all agree it was a gift to uncle Brian and call it a day, he has even said picking goalies is like randomly throwing darts).  This team has holes in high end talent positions (bona fide 1st line winger, true #1 or 2 defensemen, and thats assuming guys like mccabe, pysyk, bogosian Oreilly, reinhart, all work out)  that won't be filled by free agents (because the best of the best don't want to come her yet) or trades (because our asset pool is low as it is). We need to ice an exciting product that falters in the right places and shoot for drafting in the top 5 one more time. Otherwise, if one or two of aforementioned prospects don't pan out, your left mired in mediocrity with no access to high end players, fervently trying to plug holes with overpriced has been's or one hit playoff wonders. Sound familiar?  

 

I would love if the sabers could loosely follow the trajectory of  Tampa Bay.

They are disgusting now, and were bad just enough, and at just the right times, to have a pile of assets ensuring continuity.  If they had jumped prematurely, say in 2010, who knows if they aren't stuck in a Sisyphean re tool.

Id be ok if Eichel and Kane destroyed the NHL and broke gretzkys record, but short of that, a race to 8th would be like a virgins maiden voyage: very disappointing. 

[Thorner]

You should want them to be out of contention. You should want them to score a ton of goals, suck on defense outside of Risto and Pysyk, and suck in goal despite the idea that it confirms wasting of assets (lets just all agree it was a gift to uncle Brian and call it a day, he has even said picking goalies is like randomly throwing darts).  This team has holes in high end talent positions (bona fide 1st line winger, true #1 or 2 defensemen, and thats assuming guys like mccabe, pysyk, bogosian Oreilly, reinhart, all work out)  that won't be filled by free agents (because the best of the best don't want to come her yet) or trades (because our asset pool is low as it is). We need to ice an exciting product that falters in the right places and shoot for drafting in the top 5 one more time. Otherwise, if one or two of aforementioned prospects don't pan out, your left mired in mediocrity with no access to high end players, fervently trying to plug holes with overpriced has been's or one hit playoff wonders. Sound familiar?  

 

I would love if the sabers could loosely follow the trajectory of  Tampa Bay.

They are disgusting now, and were bad just enough, and at just the right times, to have a pile of assets ensuring continuity.  If they had jumped prematurely, say in 2010, who knows if they aren't stuck in a Sisyphean re tool.

Id be ok if Eichel and Kane destroyed the NHL and broke gretzkys record, but short of that, a race to 8th would be like a virgins maiden voyage: very disappointing. 

 

Welcome! :beer:

 

At this point, before even getting into details about whether another bottom finish is necessary, it needs to be said that hoping as a fan for anything of the sort again would be a hard sell. We have just finished two consecutive last-place finishes, speaking for myself, I am more than ready to root for wins now.

 

You mentioned hoping we suck on defense aside from Pysyk and Ristolainen, which doesn't make sense as there are other D that are on/may be on the team that will probably be a part of the future. McCabe and Bogosian come to mind. I would argue that Ristolainen definitely has the ability to become a future #1 defenseman, and certainly, failing that, a 1a. If Pysyk switches effectively to the left side, a top pair of Pysyk - Ristolainen, and a second pairing of McCabe and Bogosian would give us a potentially very solid top 4. Maybe we need to add another top 4 D if one of those 4 doesn't pan out, but no sense rooting for anything other than progress from them this season, as they certainly have a realistic chance of forming our D core moving forward.

 

As for Lehner, Tim Murray obviously knows him really well, and he thinks he has a future as a #1 in this league. Why root for failure? He's young, he can grow with our team.

 

You mentioned mediocrity would await us if one or two of our prospects/core players don't pan out, and I don't think that would be what would result at all. Out of our entire prospect pool, of course some of them won't pan out, but that is the reason we accumulated so much prospect depth over the last few years. They don't all need to hit. At center for example, we have in my estimation 5 centers with the potential to play in a top 6 role: Eichel, Reinhart, O'Reilly, Girensons, Larsson. We are set at center. We have wingers on the team and in the system, to the tune of not relying on all of them to make it. I see your point when it comes to a true "bona fide 1st line winger", that is something we may need to add long-term if none of our current options reaches that true top-tier level. But we have such a foundation of solid talent and potential talent built up, hoping for poor performance at this point, rather than substantial growth, all for a single winger, doesn't make much sense.

 

As for a race to 8th, that is no longer a bad thing. A "heroic run to 8th place" was only a bad thing when it was being done by an inadequate core than had no real chance of growth, one destined for eternal mediocrity. If we make a run for 8th this year, or failing that, next year, it would be because of the development and growth of our young players. We aren't going to go from bottom 5 to 2nd/3rd in the conference.

 

If we finish near the bottom this year, because we have a very young team that needs some time to grow and gel, so be it. But I don't think we are in a position of needing to specifically root for that. A much more ideal result would be a "heroic run to 8th."

[Fidelio]

Thanks for the thorough response.  

 

I could certainly be talked off my perch if the prospects you mentioned started to show consistent progress at the NHL level. If the Sabres were in 8th at the trade deadline and it was on the backs of our youth who showed legitimate competency against top level NHL competition, I would concede and change my tune. However, many of the names you mentioned, even the current NHLers are still just "prospects" in the sense that they haven't had any real success at the NHL level.  That is the essence of my desire to strive (root) for last at least one more year; there are so many unknowns.  Mccabe could be a top 4 D and Pysyk could be top 2, Bogosian could finally reach is potential, O'reilly could take on a leadership role and gain some emotional maturity, Kane could grow up etc. Those are a lot of ifs and I tend logically toward universally accepted principles: to not allocate large portions of your assets/advantages (emotional, tactical, etc) in volatile products. 

 

As far as Lehner goes, I agree Ive soured on him before hes had his chance to strut his stuff but ill never get over the atrocious value!!! argghh. lovable Brian Murray, bless his afflicted heart. 

 

Luckily for us, rooting doesn't substantially affect the outcome of the game, so i can sit in my tower and throw stones and you can lead the wave at the FNC and we can all agree to disagree.  But i do like the conversation and look forward to my sassy, muddled, parenthetic expressions getting well considered and conceived responses such as yours...... for me to poop on.

:nana:

[Thorner]

Thanks for the thorough response.  

 

I could certainly be talked off my perch if the prospects you mentioned started to show consistent progress at the NHL level. If the Sabres were in 8th at the trade deadline and it was on the backs of our youth who showed legitimate competency against top level NHL competition, I would concede and change my tune. However, many of the names you mentioned, even the current NHLers are still just "prospects" in the sense that they haven't had any real success at the NHL level.  That is the essence of my desire to strive (root) for last at least one more year; there are so many unknowns.  Mccabe could be a top 4 D and Pysyk could be top 2, Bogosian could finally reach is potential, O'reilly could take on a leadership role and gain some emotional maturity, Kane could grow up etc. Those are a lot of ifs and I tend logically toward universally accepted principles: to not allocate large portions of your assets/advantages (emotional, tactical, etc) in volatile products. 

 

As far as Lehner goes, I agree Ive soured on him before hes had his chance to strut his stuff but ill never get over the atrocious value!!! argghh. ###### lovable Brian Murray, bless his afflicted heart. 

 

Luckily for us, rooting doesn't substantially affect the outcome of the game, so i can sit in my tower and throw stones and you can lead the wave at the FNC and we can all agree to disagree.  But i do like the conversation and look forward to my sassy, muddled, parenthetic expressions getting well considered and conceived responses such as yours...... for me to poop on.

:nana:

 

I love Triumph. On a separate but related note, Conan is still the best late night talk show host, bar none.

 

As to your main point, in the sense that I see it is a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts, it makes sense. If we don't see much growth from the kids next year, we will be near the bottom, so we will both deserve and attain a top pick. But we would only need that pick in truth if we have a lousy season. That's the self-fulfilling part. If we need the top pick we'll get it. But we would be in a much better place organizationally if we see the growth. In my view, might as well root for that. I won't begrudge you of your current position though, of course.

 

Fortunately for us as fans, the only way we will be good is on the strength of the youth. We are basically only youth. Gionta, Moulson and Gorges aren't putting us on their back like broken-leg-greg-jennings and taking us to the playoffs.

[Eleven]

Holy ######.  Is this really happening?  Quality content and posts between two relative newcomers?

 

I really hate the tank for Auston concept (and name--you can redo that, you know) but this is something. 

 

We haven't had this since PA and DeLuca joined in 1985.

 

DeLuca was only 40 then.  PA was 72.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Eleven