I Don't Know How Anyone Could Be upset With The Moves

[Weave]

Am I the only one that thinks we really didn't give up that much to get ROR?  Grigorenko is a project.  Zadorov may very well be  project too.  Both have high top ends, but neither is a sure thing.  31?  Meh.  And a prospect that, if he made the Sabres in a couple seasons, would likely be in a 3rd line role.

No angina here.

[LGR4GM]

Look at the roster before and after. There's your answer right there. I think there are few people who would prefer the roster from before last Friday over what it is now.

 

There is the concern over what gives up in terms of picks and prospects and how that will affect the future, but he has to build a winner first and frankly I wouldn't call the prospect pool gutted.

I mean if you look at our prospect pool, it is still top 5 in the entire league.  Grigorenko leaving makes no impact. Zadorov is a loss. Compher was buried behind either 3 other centers or about 5 LW's.  The 31st overall is a ? so really we were going to have to move someone.  We still have something like 9lw, 9rw, 7gt, and 10 center prospects according to what I see.  That is ridiculously good considering we are a roster of 24yr olds and under. 

Am I the only one that thinks we really didn't give up that much to get ROR?  Grigorenko is a project.  Zadorov may very well be  project too.  Both have high top ends, but neither is a sure thing.  31?  Meh.  And a prospect that, if he made the Sabres in a couple seasons, would likely be in a 3rd line role.

No angina here.

I don't think we gave up that much.  I was convinced it was going to be Zadorov, Zemgus, Bailey and 21 so yea can't really complain. 

[TrueBlueGED]

The uptick was too much. I could see a slight improvement on the wing but ROR is a puck distributor more than a shooter. Doesn't take away from him at all, he will have very good wingers to dish too. Ennis and Kane can score.

Yea, not all of it was due to position change. But it makes sense he'd score more goals as a wing getting better offensive opportunity (that season Stastny was doing the heavy lifting defensively). So I think there's more there than simply random uptick in sh%.

Am I the only one that thinks we really didn't give up that much to get ROR? Grigorenko is a project. Zadorov may very well be project too. Both have high top ends, but neither is a sure thing. 31? Meh. And a prospect that, if he made the Sabres in a couple seasons, would likely be in a 3rd line role.

No angina here.

I'm right there with you. We also did get a legit 3rd line player, which is about a 2nd round pick in value at the trade deadline, so a full year has more value than that. It's easy to leave out, but I think it matters.

[Drunkard]

Am I the only one that thinks we really didn't give up that much to get ROR?  Grigorenko is a project.  Zadorov may very well be  project too.  Both have high top ends, but neither is a sure thing.  31?  Meh.  And a prospect that, if he made the Sabres in a couple seasons, would likely be in a 3rd line role.

No angina here.

 

We'll have to wait and see if he signs an extension first and for how much. Colorado wouldn't have traded him to begin with if getting him to extend was as easy as everyone seems to assume it will be. He has ALL of the leverage at this point.

[TrueBlueGED]

I don't think we gave up that much. I was convinced it was going to be Zadorov, Zemgus, Bailey and 21 so yea can't really complain.

That's because you were being wholly unreasonable :nana:

We'll have to wait and see if he signs an extension first and for how much. Colorado wouldn't have traded him to begin with if getting him to extend was as easy as everyone seems to assume it will be. He has ALL of the leverage at this point.

Signing him to an extension is easy, Colorado just didn't want to pay him because of internal structure and upcoming extensions they need to deal out (MacKinnon in particular). I expect an extension before the week is over.

[Kruppstahl]

We were always going to get a lot better when the massive amount of gathered potential was realized.

 

The question is not whether we have improved, we were bound to do that.  

 

The question is whether the potential was maximized, which I assume and hope was the goal of the organization.  

 

I think we gave up a LOT for O'Reilly, as much as I like him. The key to that deal is going to be McGinn.  He is not a "throw in" or a "cap dump" at all.  If he can rebound and stay healthy with a congenital back problem, he could be the difference in that deal.  

The Lehner deal was flat out bad and a mistake.

 

Murray has proven that once he finds his man, he will overpay to get him.  He clearly thinks Lehner is the guy going forward.  We'll have to see how well that plays out.

I expect us to make further substantive additions with FA and look for a LHD as one of those moves; I would love to see Rej come back to Buffalo.

 

Overall I think Murray is doing good work.  He is clearly not afraid to make moves and modify previous modifications to the team, constantly looking to improve.  He has mentioned the target is constantly moving, which is a healthy mindset to have in his position.

 

How it will all mesh and how long it will take to come together remains to be seen.

 

In a few years, O'Reilly and Eichel should make us as good as we were with Drury and Briere, plus something more.

That's cause for serious excitement.  Those guys and the 2006 campaign represent the high water mark of this franchise, and it's going to get better soon.

[Weave]

We'll have to wait and see if he signs an extension first and for how much. Colorado wouldn't have traded him to begin with if getting him to extend was as easy as everyone seems to assume it will be. He has ALL of the leverage at this point.

 

Well, initial reports are that he's expected to get a deal done soon.  Like most have said, I doubt that the trade happened if there wasnt an understanding of terms in place.

[Drunkard]

That's because you were being wholly unreasonable :nana:

 

Signing him to an extension is easy, Colorado just didn't want to pay him because of internal structure and upcoming extensions they need to deal out (MacKinnon in particular). I expect an extension before the week is over.

 

So Colorado didn't want to pay him big bucks because they have better players who were a higher priority or more important or whatever you want to call it. I can see that because Landeskog, Duchene, and MacKinnon are either already good or are expected to be really good. Aren't we in the same situation with the expected big contracts of Eichel, Reinhart, and Ristolainen on the horizon though?

Edited June 29, 2015 by Drunkard

[sabills]

Well, initial reports are that he's expected to get a deal done soon.  Like most have said, I doubt that the trade happened if there wasnt an understanding of terms in place.

 

Hold on to your butts for that deal, it'll be a lot. Not judging, he's probably worth it, but its going to be a big one.

[Drunkard]

Well, initial reports are that he's expected to get a deal done soon.  Like most have said, I doubt that the trade happened if there wasnt an understanding of terms in place.

 

I guess we'll soon find out. I just hope he signs long term for less than $8 million. If we pay $8 million or more for a guy who has one 20 goal season under his belt I think it's going to prove to be a giant mistake. It's not like he was playing with untalented teammates in Colorado so I wouldn't expect some large bump in production out of him.

[TrueBlueGED]

So Colorado didn't want to pay him big bucks because they have better players who were a higher priority or more important or whatever you want to call it. I can see that because Landeskog, Duchene, and MacKinnon are either already good or are expected to be really good. Aren't we in the same situation with the expected big contracts of Eichel, Reinhart, and Ristolainen on the horizon though?

The conventional wisdom among Avs fans is both Duchene and Landeskog took Tema friendly contracts at least a little below their true market value, whereas O'Reilly wanted his actual market value. On top of that, MacKinnon, Johnson and Barrie are due new deals soon (as in, after next season). Colorado is not a cap team, they're a mid-cap team, so they have to prioritize. They're obviously resigning Mac to huge money, that puts significant investment in three forwards. Do they want to heavily invest in a fourth forward and lose one of their best Dmen, a position where they have little to no depth? Probably not.

 

Again, we'll never know all the details with something like this, but it seems to me the problem is simply that Colorado isn't a cap team and O'Reilly won't take a home town discount. Those two things combined with three high profile free agents next year means the team had to make a choice and prioritize. I think MacKinnon and Landeskog are better than O'Reilly so it makes sense to give them the big forward money. I happen to think O'Reilly is better than Duchene, but particularly for a team with a budget, Duchene at $6 million makes a lot more sense than O'Reilly at $8 million. Sometimes the fit just isn't there, and it doesn't have to be more complicated or sinister than that.

 

I don't see this being a problem for us because we are a cap team, so we can afford that extra premium. I also don't expect all of our budding stars to not get paid until the 11th hour--I honesty think Risto and Girgs get long term deals after this season which will be much cheaper than bridging them and signed them long term 3 years from now. That leaves room to put the big money in Eichel, Reinhart and O'Reilly.

Edited June 29, 2015 by TrueBluePhD

[Drunkard]

The conventional wisdom among Avs fans is both Duchene and Landeskog took Tema friendly contracts at least a little below their true market value, whereas O'Reilly wanted his actual market value. On top of that, MacKinnon, Johnson and Barrie are due new deals soon (as in, after next season). Colorado is not a cap team, they're a mid-cap team, so they have to prioritize. They're obviously resigning Mac to huge money, that puts significant investment in three forwards. Do they want to heavily invest in a fourth forward and lose one of their best Dmen, a position where they have little to no depth? Probably not.

 

Again, we'll never know all the details with something like this, but it seems to me the problem is simply that Colorado isn't a cap team and O'Reilly won't take a home town discount. Those two things combined with three high profile free agents next year means the team had to make a choice and prioritize. I think MacKinnon and Landeskog are better than O'Reilly so it makes sense to give them the big forward money. I happen to think O'Reilly is better than Duchene, but particularly for a team with a budget, Duchene at $6 million makes a lot more sense than O'Reilly at $8 million. Sometimes the fit just isn't there, and it doesn't have to be more complicated or sinister than that.

 

I don't see this being a problem for us because we are a cap team, so we can afford that extra premium. I also don't expect all of our budding stars to not get paid until the 11th hour--I honesty think Risto and Girgs get long term deals after this season which will be much cheaper than bridging them and signed them long term 3 years from now. That leaves room to put the big money in Eichel, Reinhart and O'Reilly.

 

 

Makes sense but I still disagree that O'Reilly will wind up being worth it, given what we gave up to get him and the price of his next contract, especially when you consider the players we already have at center and left wing. Sheltering Reinhart and Eichel for a couple of seasons is a great idea but after they prove to belong as a 1st and 2nd line center then what? Do we jettison Kane or Moulson to give O'Reilly their spot? Does O'Reilly play out of place at Right Wing as a left handed shot the way Ennis does and Girgensons might because Murray seems to have a b0ner for southpaw forwards? Are one of our 2nd overall pick stud centers going to have to play out of position at Right Wing for their entire ELCs and possibly longer? Seems like we're not going to get the full benefit of our assets that way and it would've been smarter to let somebody else overpay.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Drunkard

[Randall Flagg]

You're worried about giving O'Reilly Moulson's spot??? Jeepers.

 

OReilly was absolutely worth what he was traded for and most of us expected more.

 

Shooting hand is waaaaay too emphasized on this board, too, Ovechkin plays on his off wing and seems to do just swimmingly.

[Samson's Flow]

Can I complain about the move to buyout Hodgson in this thread?

 

I need to pick out a new avatar now, change my profile title... and take down all the Cody fatheads in the basement, and cancel that tattoo appointment next week, plus no more weekly in-season bridge tournaments with the Hodgsons... this is gonna be tough...

[Drunkard]

You're worried about giving O'Reilly Moulson's spot??? Jeepers.

 

OReilly was absolutely worth what he was traded for and most of us expected more.

 

Shooting hand is waaaaay too emphasized on this board, too, Ovechkin plays on his off wing and seems to do just swimmingly.

 

I'm worried about paying Moulson $5 million or O'Reilly $7 + million to play on our 3rd line. Yes, Ovechkin plays on his off hand but he's one of the best players in the world. Mr. 1 season of 20 goals isn't and may not be as effective playing on his offhand and if it doesn't work out you don't want to overpay people to play out of position.

[LGR4GM]

Can I complain about the move to buyout Hodgson in this thread?

 

I need to pick out a new avatar now, change my profile title... and take down all the Cody fatheads in the basement, and cancel that tattoo appointment next week, plus no more weekly in-season bridge tournaments with the Hodgsons... this is gonna be tough...

Have a hug, on me. 

[Kelly the Dog]

I have yet to see one person who has actually watched OReilly a lot say anything other than he is an extraordinary player and easily a #1 center. The only people who ever seem to say he isn't worth it have surely seen him play, but say his points and money don't match almost on a theoretical basis.

[Samson's Flow]

Have a hug, on me. 

Thanks bud. I'll have to file him in with Brad Boyes, Dainus Zubrus and Paul Gaustad for ex-sabres-who-kind-of-sucked-but-I-still-liked.

[Drunkard]

I have yet to see one person who has actually watched OReilly a lot say anything other than he is an extraordinary player and easily a #1 center. The only people who ever seem to say he isn't worth it have surely seen him play, but say his points and money don't match almost on a theoretical basis.

 

I've read a lot of Avalanche boards and I imagine they've watched him more than any of us. They seem happy with the return, glad to be rid of the headache, and glad extending him is somebody else's problem.

He doesn't project as a top line center for them because of MacKinnon and Duchene. Unfortunately he won't project as a top line center for us either after a few years because of Eichel and Reinhart. Who knows though. Maybe in a few years when Eichel and Reinhart are ready we can trade him to Toronto so he can be their #1 center.

[TrueBlueGED]

I've read a lot of Avalanche boards and I imagine they've watched him more than any of us. They seem happy with the return, glad to be rid of the headache, and glad extending him is somebody else's problem.

 

He doesn't project as a top line center for them because of MacKinnon and Duchene. Unfortunately he won't project as a top line center for us either after a few years because of Eichel and Reinhart. Who knows though. Maybe in a few years when Eichel and Reinhart are ready we can trade him to Toronto so he can be their #1 center.

At some point the work on my car is going to be done so I can stop arguing, but not yet! The stuff from Avs fans is about everything other than his play on the ice. There is near universal praise for his on-ice performance.

 

Secondly, he was their top line center. You can argue MacKinnon would have taken over eventually, but he was clearly slotted above Duchene on the depth chart.

[Samson's Flow]

I've read a lot of Avalanche boards and I imagine they've watched him more than any of us. They seem happy with the return, glad to be rid of the headache, and glad extending him is somebody else's problem.

He doesn't project as a top line center for them because of MacKinnon and Duchene. Unfortunately he won't project as a top line center for us either after a few years because of Eichel and Reinhart. Who knows though. Maybe in a few years when Eichel and Reinhart are ready we can trade him to Toronto so he can be their #1 center.

O'Reilly has played wing in Colorado and I think he projects as a great top line LW in the future. Come playoff time it is good to have backup centers throughout the lineup for faceoffs and defensive zone coverage purposes.

[Drunkard]

O'Reilly has played wing in Colorado and I think he projects as a great top line LW in the future. Come playoff time it is good to have backup centers throughout the lineup for faceoffs and defensive zone coverage purposes.

 

Awesome. It's a good thing we've finally filled the giant void we have at LW. I was getting worried with only Kane, Moulson, Foligno, and Deslauriers slotted to play there and only Ennis, Girgensons, and Larsson being able to fill in there in a pinch. Now I can rest easy.

At some point the work on my car is going to be done so I can stop arguing, but not yet! The stuff from Avs fans is about everything other than his play on the ice. There is near universal praise for his on-ice performance.

 

Secondly, he was their top line center. You can argue MacKinnon would have taken over eventually, but he was clearly slotted above Duchene on the depth chart.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see the value in O'Reilly now and for the next year or two but not really after that point. It's great to be overloaded with quality guys but not when you are paying them a premium and O'Reilly will be paid a premium to be out of position due to Eichel and Reinhart. Square peg meet round hole. It doesn't fit and the assets foregone to have him would be better spent elsewhere.

 

That's just my opinion on it. Good points on all sides though, but I still don't like the trade. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong though.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Drunkard

[Samson's Flow]

Awesome. It's a good thing we've finally filled the giant void we have at LW. I was getting worried with only Kane, Moulson, Foligno, and Deslauriers slotted to play there and only Ennis, Girgensons, and Larsson being able to fill in there in a pinch. Now I can rest easy.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see the value in O'Reilly now and for the next year or two but not really after that point. It's great to be overloaded with quality guys but not when you are paying them a premium and O'Reilly will be paid a premium to be out of position due to Eichel and Reinhart. Square peg meet round hole. It doesn't fit and the assets foregone to have him would be better spent elsewhere.

 

That's just my opinion on it. Good points on all sides though, but I still don't like the trade. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong though.

I appreciate the sarcasm. The Moulson, Foligno, Deslauriers that you listed have little to nothing to do with O'Reilly. Those aren't the type of players you make room for like a Kane or O'Reilly. For a key game 7 faceoff, I would prefer to trot our Eichel with O'Reilly so if Eichel gets tossed you have a veteran centerman to take the draw and not Jason Pominville (who took lots of draws back in the day)

[Drunkard]

I appreciate the sarcasm. The Moulson, Foligno, Deslauriers that you listed have little to nothing to do with O'Reilly. Those aren't the type of players you make room for like a Kane or O'Reilly. For a key game 7 faceoff, I would prefer to trot our Eichel with O'Reilly so if Eichel gets tossed you have a veteran centerman to take the draw and not Jason Pominville (who took lots of draws back in the day)

 

Yeah, sorry about the sarcasm. I'm not trying to be an and personally I'm hoping you guys might be able to change my mind because it would be much more fun to be excited about the trade like almost everyone else seems to be. If you look at my posting history I've never been a contrarian/troll/or anything like that by design. I have my opinions and sometimes they agree with the general consensus and sometimes they don't. I understand the appeal of O'Reilly and I understand the benefits of having guys who have the ability to play center on the wings. I would have loved to have a guy like O'Reilly at any time since 7/1/07 when we've been painfully short of centers. The problem is timing. We needed him (or a player like him) years ago way more than we need him now and a few years from now we're going to need him even less once Eichel and Reinhart get some seasoning.

 

If Girgensons and Ennis are in your top 6 then you've already got a backup center for both scoring lines. Larsson is capable of playing center as well and can be the backup center for any of the bottom 9 lines as well. O'Reilly makes this team better without a doubt, but I wouldn't have gone after him due to the cost of the trade (still hate losing Zadorov) and the expected contract he'll be signing.

[Samson's Flow]

Yeah, sorry about the sarcasm. I'm not trying to be an ###### and personally I'm hoping you guys might be able to change my mind because it would be much more fun to be excited about the trade like almost everyone else seems to be. If you look at my posting history I've never been a contrarian/troll/or anything like that by design. I have my opinions and sometimes they agree with the general consensus and sometimes they don't. I understand the appeal of O'Reilly and I understand the benefits of having guys who have the ability to play center on the wings. I would have loved to have a guy like O'Reilly at any time since 7/1/07 when we've been painfully short of centers. The problem is timing. We needed him (or a player like him) years ago way more than we need him now and a few years from now we're going to need him even less once Eichel and Reinhart get some seasoning.

 

If Girgensons and Ennis are in your top 6 then you've already got a backup center for both scoring lines. Larsson is capable of playing center as well and can be the backup center for any of the bottom 9 lines as well. O'Reilly makes this team better without a doubt, but I wouldn't have gone after him due to the cost of the trade (still hate losing Zadorov) and the expected contract he'll be signing.

No worries. We all get crotchety from time to time. Hell I have a freaking Eichel-corn as my avatar since Hodgson got bought out.

 

Players that are viewed as "elite" (and you can argue whether he is or not, but he did play on Canada's stacked World Championship team) are not often available. When they are available, you do whatever you can to acquire them, then you worry about how to make them fit later. IMO, GMTM was able to do so with both Kane and O'Reilly. You win championships by having high end talent far more often than you do having a bunch of second tier talents. You only get 5 skaters on the ice at a time, and come playoff time I want my best 5 skaters to be more talented than the other team, not hoping #'s 6-15 can beat the other team.

 

This is why I personally am excited for the addition of RoR, Kane, Eichel et al. the way the team is projecting, we will have some top end talent to trot out there when the going gets tough and you need that late goal down one. Think the Toews play against us late in the season.

 

All the picks we traded, and Zadorov, Grigo etc have the potential to maybe be those kinds of players if they hit their ceilings, but O'Reilly is already that kind of player.