Murray has traded a lot of assets in a very short period of time

[GoPre]

Really, Lerner head issues even med staff are unsure of implications both shortbrun and long run, it will be hard to tell both for Lerner's sake and the Sabres which is why taking a risk on him is fine, overpaying was foolish and TM needs to become a better negotiator. That being said he has been able to adapt and now his Uncle owes him one. Murray if smart keeps that chit in his pocket and uses it well.

The Murray's traded within the division. That's almost breaking an unwritten rule. Both saved face w/ what they gave up. It was a balanced trade.

 

As for the concussion, isn't there some hockey player named Sidney something that missed almost an entire year of hockey due to having one? His level of play didn't change a bit. Can't quite remember the name. Maybe he was over rated. SARCASM if you haven't figured it out.

[PotentPowerPlay22]

We stocked up on assets to use them.  Some of the guys we drafted with extra picks are part of the future moving forward (Girgensons) and others were moved for other players (Zadarov, Compher).  And now the Sabres are in way better shape than they were before the rebuild started.  This is the reason we wanted a rebuild.

Peter Chiarelli wouldn’t take all the credit for what the Edmonton Oilers did at the NHL Draft, stating that Craig MacTavish was the one who laid down the foundation that allowed him to do what he did. 

Chiarelli showed some class.

 

It's too bad Tim Murray didn't have the class to acknowledge the work of Darcy Regier. Regier took all the pain of tearing down and stockpiling the assets that Murray so rapidly and happily traded away. Trader Tim was the beneficiary from some of the great trades Regier made near the end of his term. To my knowledge, GMTM has never even spoken the name of Darcy Regier in any public comment. It wouldn't kill Murray if he acknowledged the work his predecessor did that has helped him greatly. 

Edited June 29, 2015 by PotentPowerPlay22

[Randall Flagg]

Peter Chiarelli wouldn’t take all the credit for what the Edmonton Oilers did at the NHL Draft, stating that Craig MacTavish was the one who laid down the foundation that allowed him to do what he did. 

Chiarelli showed some class.

 

It's too bad Tim Murray didn't have the class to acknowledge the work of Darcy Regier. Regier took all the pain of tearing down and stockpiling the assets that Murray so rapidly and happily traded away. Trader Tim was the beneficiary from some of the great trades Regier made near the end of his term. To my knowledge, GMTM has never even spoken the name of Darcy Regier in any public comment. It wouldn't kill Murray if he acknowledged the work his predecessor did that has helped him greatly. 

I think it'd be wacky to hear him do that, and to use the fact that he hasn't as a mark against him would be a mistake.

[North Buffalo]

The Murray's traded within the division. That's almost breaking an unwritten rule. Both saved face w/ what they gave up. It was a balanced trade.

As for the concussion, isn't there some hockey player named Sidney something that missed almost an entire year of hockey due to having one? His level of play didn't change a bit. Can't quite remember the name. Maybe he was over rated. SARCASM if you haven't figured it out.

I disagree on balance with the concussion issue and Lerner is still a potential, so yes TM way overpaid imo, not saying he may have gotten a gem, interdivision shouldn't cost that much above the going rate. Also no way Cindy is the same player he once was, skill yes, agressiveness no, he is no where near as consistent and tough, still great but not as dominant post concussion.

[GoPre]

I disagree on balance with the concussion issue and Lerner is still a potential, so yes TM way overpaid imo, not saying he may have gotten a gem, interdivision shouldn't cost that much above the going rate. Also no way Cindy is the same player he once was, skill yes, agressiveness no, he is no where near as consistent and tough, still great but not as dominant post concussion.

12/13 season- 36 games 56 points

13/14 season - 80 games 104 points (2nd most in

in his career)

14/15 season - 77 games 84 points (League

high was 87)

 

Not as dominant after his concussion? Yeah, okay. Look at Crosby's numbers since it all went down. He had his 2nd best season in 14'. Not as dominant? Give me a break.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Thanes16

[X. Benedict]

Peter Chiarelli wouldn’t take all the credit for what the Edmonton Oilers did at the NHL Draft, stating that Craig MacTavish was the one who laid down the foundation that allowed him to do what he did. 

Chiarelli showed some class.

 

It's too bad Tim Murray didn't have the class to acknowledge the work of Darcy Regier. Regier took all the pain of tearing down and stockpiling the assets that Murray so rapidly and happily traded away. Trader Tim was the beneficiary from some of the great trades Regier made near the end of his term. To my knowledge, GMTM has never even spoken the name of Darcy Regier in any public comment. It wouldn't kill Murray if he acknowledged the work his predecessor did that has helped him greatly. 

 

GMTM would be the first to point out that the Sabres haven't won a G*&d*m^ thing. There is nobody to thank yet. Nobody. 

[nucci]

The Murray's traded within the division. That's almost breaking an unwritten rule. Both saved face w/ what they gave up. It was a balanced trade.

 

As for the concussion, isn't there some hockey player named Sidney something that missed almost an entire year of hockey due to having one? His level of play didn't change a bit. Can't quite remember the name. Maybe he was over rated. SARCASM if you haven't figured it out.

With as many teams in the new division setup, you would be limiting yourself if you only trade out of division or conference...that unwritten rule is probably done

[sabresouth]

People have different types of personalitys. I'm more like TM. Here's an example, when I buy a truck, I can buy a truck for $35000. But the truck I really want is $40000, my personality says if I'm going to spend $35000 I want the truck I want, so I'm going to spend the extra $5000 to get what I want. Some people are happier saving the money but not getting everything they wanted. That's fine too.

 

I think GMTM says, if I'm going to spend the assets, I want the player I want. He could say I could get 75% of what I want over here for a little less. But I don't think that's his personality. He wants the player he wants and is willing to pay for him. That's fine with me, were already talking playoffs, that's not a bad thing. I can't wait for October!!!

[Brawndo]

GMTM has said in the past the groundwork for improving this team was in place before he arrived. Has he mentioned Regier by name? No he hasn't.

 

The difference is that The Oilers still employ Mac Tavish, so Chiarelli is more likely to mention him by name

[GoPre]

With as many teams in the new division setup, you would be limiting yourself if you only trade out of division or conference...that unwritten rule is probably done

That is understandable. The current setup is new, so there may be an adjustment period. Especially between two rival teams from the previous division. Honestly, do you think Boston would make a trade w/ Buffalo w/out wanting a little extra? GM's naturally relate better to other GM's for different reasons. One has to involve being in the same division, and that can't be a good thing. I will agree w/ the divisions being larger you will see more same division trades than in the past. However, a GM will almost always prefer to make a trade outside a division. Man, LA wanted Jones out of the Western Conference.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Thanes16

[Peter]

People have different types of personalitys. I'm more like TM. Here's an example, when I buy a truck, I can buy a truck for $35000. But the truck I really want is $40000, my personality says if I'm going to spend $35000 I want the truck I want, so I'm going to spend the extra $5000 to get what I want. Some people are happier saving the money but not getting everything they wanted. That's fine too.

I think GMTM says, if I'm going to spend the assets, I want the player I want. He could say I could get 75% of what I want over here for a little less. But I don't think that's his personality. He wants the player he wants and is willing to pay for him. That's fine with me, were already talking playoffs, that's not a bad thing. I can't wait for October!!!

But would you spend $45,000 on a $40,000 truck?

[LGR4GM]

It's too bad Tim Murray didn't have the class to acknowledge the work of Darcy Regier. Regier took all the pain of tearing down and stockpiling the assets that Murray so rapidly and happily traded away. Trader Tim was the beneficiary from some of the great trades Regier made near the end of his term. To my knowledge, GMTM has never even spoken the name of Darcy Regier in any public comment. It wouldn't kill Murray if he acknowledged the work his predecessor did that has helped him greatly. 

You think Tim Murray should acknowledge a man who failed for 5 years to address the lack of centers, saddled us with Cody Hodgson's ridiculous contract, and mismanaged a team to the point of needing a complete rebuild the likes of which the league had not seen?  You think Tim "0 f##ks given" Murray should acknowledge him?  

 

Murray "I would like to acknowledge that DR ran this hockey team into the ground and forced us into the tank. I would like to thank him, because of his incompetence, I was awarded my dream job. Let's go Buffalo."

[bunomatic]

You think Tim Murray should acknowledge a man who failed for 5 years to address the lack of centers, saddled us with Cody Hodgson's ridiculous contract, and mismanaged a team to the point of needing a complete rebuild the likes of which the league had not seen?  You think Tim "0 f##ks given" Murray should acknowledge him?  

 

Murray "I would like to acknowledge that DR ran this hockey team into the ground and forced us into the tank. I would like to thank him, because of his incompetence, I was awarded my dream job. Let's go Buffalo."

I tend to agree with this. There are some things DR can be credited with but as you said he literally ran this team into the ground. There's a reason many on the board referred to him as weasel.

[sabresouth]

But would you spend $45,000 on a $40,000 truck?

If its the only one like it and I have the money, I'm willing to pay a little more than the next guy. There's only one ROR, and I believe GMTM thinks he's worth the extra cost. I'm not saying its the right move all the time. And yes I know he has overpaid before, I'm just saying that's his mindset. I think GMTM believes every player he goes after gives the sabres the highest percentage possibility of helping the team win the cup and is willing to pay a little more to guarantee he gets him.

[DHawerchuk10]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I like TM. I am happy that he is our GM.

Nevertheless, I agree with the overall thesis of the OP.

Tim has paid (in my opinion) premium pricing in his trades. We certainly accumulated assets to use to improve the team, but I think that we had a lot more leverage in both the Lehner and ROR trades.

Lehner may end up being good, but his track record in the NHL does not justify the 21st pick in the draft. The goalie market this year and in recent years does not support the 21st pick in the draft. We also did Uncle Brian a huge favor by taking on salary.

ROR is a good two way player, but appears (I hope not) to have a cap on his offensive production. We also are taking on the risk (whatever that percentage may be) of not being able to extend him beyond this year. Also, if we do extend him, it will have a ripple effect on the rest of the roster and cap in a few years. McGinn also has one year left on his deal and a history of back problems. In fact, his back issues limited him to 19 games this past year. I wish we could have used the 21st pick (instead of Zadorov) in the ROR deal. I also do not like having to "throw in" Compher on top of Zadorov.

As some have said, if we win the Stanley Cup in the next few years, not many will care what we gave up. Forgetting about what his salary will be and what we gave up for him for the moment, the Sabres are clearly stronger down the middle with ROR than without. Lehner is a question mark. We can hope that he will reach the potential that Tim sees in him by giving him the minutes he needs and providing him the goalie whisperer (Irbe - presuming he continues to be the goalie coach). Mcginn's back and contract also are question marks. Let's hope his back issues are cleared up.

We now have fewer assets than before. Tim is going to have to be more circumspect in his trades. At the same time, he probably has a bit of a reputation in the league for willing to pay a premium for players he is fixated on. He is going to have to show that those days are over.

Side note: it will be interesting to see if and when Tim acquires any other Russian players. I have a feeling that he falls within that camp of NHL executives who are not fans of Russians. What is that adage that some use - none but certainly not more than one?

Another side note: I have this impression (my opinion) that teams negotiate with Tim by insisting on "throw ins" at the last moment (e.g., Compher and Lemieux). That is a negotiating tactic that some attempt to use in the business world to take advantage of the other side's anxiousness to close the deal after thinking the parties already have agreed to terms. I hope that stops. Tim may have to call people's bluffs in future negotiations.

Just my two cents.

Excellent articulation of the concerns. I also agree with many things north buffalo has said. Just to add to this, I am not sure where all this trust in Tim Murray comes from. The blind Tim Murray fanboys are really starting to irk me. By all means, shower him with praises if we make major improvements next year, but the praise isn't warranted yet.

 

My fear is that Murray is committing the same mistakes Darcy did, but from the opposite side of the spectrum. As some have said, the real skill of a gm is team building and not winning trades. However, it has to be questioned if he put all of our eggs in one basket. If Kane busts or oreilly doesn't sign, this will be a huge catastrophe in my opinion. Time will certainly tell, and I hope the risks, while present don't play out.

 

Although not a huge o'reilly fan, I definitely like the idea of using him to shelter eichel and Reinhart.

[Lanny]

I feel like i recall a time in which he has acknowleged Darcy. Either in a press conference or on WGR.

[bunomatic]

He does not have to acknowledge Darcy. ZFG

 

As others have said MacT is still employed by the oilers and that is why Chia paid homage to him. All Darcy did was start the teardown largely because of his ineffectiveness as the G.M. in the years previous. Darcy steered the ship towards the rocks, GMTM held the coarse.

[qwksndmonster]

GMTM would be the first to point out that the Sabres haven't won a G*&d*m^ thing. There is nobody to thank yet. Nobody. 

He doesn't post a lot, but he was here for the trades offering an interesting viewpoint (if I recall correctly he was lamenting the short term nature of TM's moves).  I disagree with him, but also care about him a lot.  I'd like to thank nobody for being a regular poster on this forum for years.

[X. Benedict]

He doesn't post a lot, but he was here for the trades offering an interesting viewpoint (if I recall correctly he was lamenting the short term nature of TM's moves).  I disagree with him, but also care about him a lot.  I'd like to thank nobody for being a regular poster on this forum for years.

 

Nobody was a good guy. 

[Weave]

Nobody was a good guy. 

 

 

Was?

 

*pours a little out for Nobody*

 

*snif*

[LGR4GM]

Nobody was a good guy. 

:(

[dudacek]

Excellent articulation of the concerns. I also agree with many things north buffalo has said. Just to add to this, I am not sure where all this trust in Tim Murray comes from. The blind Tim Murray fanboys are really starting to irk me. By all means, shower him with praises if we make major improvements next year, but the praise isn't warranted yet.

 

My fear is that Murray is committing the same mistakes Darcy did, but from the opposite side of the spectrum. As some have said, the real skill of a gm is team building and not winning trades. However, it has to be questioned if he put all of our eggs in one basket. If Kane busts or oreilly doesn't sign, this will be a huge catastrophe in my opinion. Time will certainly tell, and I hope the risks, while present don't play out.

 

Although not a huge o'reilly fan, I definitely like the idea of using him to shelter eichel and Reinhart.

 

Murray hasn't proved a goddam thing. But that shouldn't stop me from liking what seems to be building.

 

Nobody was a good guy. 

 

I'd like to thank him from the bottom of my heart for setting the table for the two consecutive Sabrespace Gold championship trophies perched on my mantel.

 

Nobody will never be forgotten.

[GoPre]

Alright, apologize for asking this, but did something unfortunate happen to Nobody? Or is this some type of joke? Yeah, I can be gullible. 

[Samson's Flow]

Alright, apologize for asking this, but did something unfortunate happen to Nobody? Or is this some type of joke? Yeah, I can be gullible. 

I'm not sure what they are getting at, his last post was yesterday at 9:49pm. He's still around...

 

:unsure:

[nfreeman]

We've gone from purely hoping and praying on future returns, many of them with a low percentage, to certainty and near-certainty on high ceiling pieces.

 

We were all praying Joel Armia would put it all together and become a 25 goal top-6 player, while trying to bury in our subconscious the very real possibility he's a washout. Not only were we worried about his hockey future, but he has every bit the injury concerns that Kane has. We were dreaming of Brendan Lemieux becoming a petulant 3rd liner who can chip in 35 points...within the next four years. We were hoping a late 1st round pick would turn into an NHL player five years down the line. We now have Evander Kane who we know, at worst, is a top-6 player and is very likely a 1st line player with real linemates. How is this bad asset management? Is the risk of him being a headcase really any higher than the rest of those unproven assets amounting to zilch at the NHL level? Kane was a #4 overall pick and has best pedigree, highest ceiling, and most proven NHL production of any piece involved here.

 

We traded our "potential Norris candidate" Myers for a currently equivalent player who had even more hype than Myers at draft time. A couple of years back I wouldn't have traded Myers for Getzlaf straight up, but at some point, you have to let the dream die. He's a 25 year old 6 year pro who has flashed #1 ability, but has also flashed a #6 floor. At what point do we accept he's just a 2nd pairing defenseman? We traded him for a Dman who also belongs on the second pair, is a little younger, and has the same potential which is just as unlikely to be realized. How is this bad asset management?

 

We traded a #1 pick for an unproven goaltender and a cap dump. I hated this trade, and still think it's bad, but that #1 pick is a late 1st rounder and 4-5 years away from even getting a legitimate chance in the NHL. Lehner is going to be our starter next year, and Legwand will provide some nice leadership from the 4th line. Would I rather have spent a 3rd and 7th on Lack? Yes. But Lehner is cost-controlled for 4 more years whereas Lack is a pending UFA, and that matters. This isn't great asset management by any stretch, but one bad deal does not a bad or "wasteful" GM make.

 

We acquired a 1st line center who can play wing and a solid 3rd line winger for Zadorov, Grigorenko, a 2nd round pick and JT Compher. Let's get the easy stuff out of the way first: Compher if he ever makes the NHL is a 3rd-4th line forward, Grigorenko had an unworkable contract situation and no real spot on the roster even without the trade, and a 2nd round pick may make an NHL appearance 5 years down the road with a tiny percentage chance to be an impact player. We can be tantalized by Grigorenko's ceiling all we want, but the odds of him reaching that aren't worth considering--his most likely positive outcome is a middle-6 center, which a still significant chance of being a total bust.

 

And then there's Zadorov, the real piece of this trade. We all know his ceiling is incredibly high--huge, good skater, legitimate offensive talent, physical defensive force. All the tools are there. But will he put them together? Showed up to camp out of shape and had to be ridden by coaches and vets to get in shape during the season (a process that took months, which really speaks to how poor his initial condition was), showed up late to meetings, came back late from the all-star break, and had continual brain cramps in the defensive zone during games. Now, each of those things individually can be explained by some combination of youth and inexperience, which hopefully would go away with the right coaching and simply natural maturation. The problem is they all happened to the same guy. Is it enough to lose hope? No, certainly not. But if the cumulative effect of all those things doesn't raise eyebrows and a red flag, you're being emotional rather than objective. What separates good players from great ones? Hockey sense and dedication--the two major questions for Zadorov. The NHL chews up and spits out super talented players every year. Yes, he could eventually turn into a franchise defenseman...but again, it comes down to a matter of likelihood. Zadorov could just as easily be a total bust as he is a #1 defenseman, with the heavy money on something in-between: a second pairing defenseman. If we can work under the assumption that a #1 Dman and a #1 center are roughly equivalent in value to a generic team, how do you consider a possible (and likely not) #1 Dman for a proven #1 center to be bad asset management? 

 

Both of the big trades has been quantity and questions for quality and certainty. The ceiling of the questions moved out is not higher than the proven performance of the pieces brought in, hence many pieces for fewer pieces. What we moved out is more easily replaceable than what we brought in is obtainable. Picks/prospects get dealt regularly, top line players in their prime do not. Ask yourself this question: when was the last time a quantity-for-quality trade turned out in favor of the team getting quantity? "The team that gets the best player won the trade" has become a saying because history shows it to be true far more often than not, and this result happens because quantity is more easily replaced than quality. You can get 2nd and 3rd line players in free agency, you almost never get 1st line players that way. It's the exact same reason that great teams re-tool around their core rather than shipping out their core to retain peripheral players. Building a team works the same way as this--acquire core pieces at the expense of the periphery. 

 

Build the core, protect the core, compete for the Cup. Worry about the rest later.

 

Excellent post, especially the bolded.

 

Having said that, I don't think the naysayers should be dismissed out of hand.  Each of the shiny new toys carries a bit of risk, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.  It's certainly possible that Kane could alienate his teammates or that his shoulder might not fully recover, or that Lehner's brain is scrambled and/or he's unable to rediscover his mojo.  If any of those scenarios develops, the Sabres will have paid a heavy price for a disappointing result.  (I would've included ROR's contract situation in this list of scary items, but it sure sounds like he's gonna sign an extension pretty soon.)

 

OTOH, assuming ROR signs an extension, I don't think there's much risk in that acquisition.  His game seems impeccable and he's young and apparently in killer physical condition.  As for Lehner and Kane -- I think it was North Buffalo who was looking for a risk discount -- I think the discount was there and was factored into the price the Sabres paid.  Kane would've never become available -- and he sure as heck would've cost more than Armia, Lemeiux, a low #1 and whatever difference there is between Myers and Bogo if he hadn't had some issues with (some of) his teammates.  Same goes for Lehner if he doesn't get concussed, keeps the #1 job and has a big year last year.

 

My bottom line is that GMTM has brought in some potential stars and has paid, in total, a fairly substantial price for them.  It all looks good on paper and computer monitors right now, but, like Darcy, he'll ultimately be evaluated based on what happens on the ice.