Around the NHL: 2015-2016

[WildCard]

Right.

 

I'm at a loss for how and why those stats would throw shade at Eichel..

So, attached is a WAR chart with different variables than normal. The bigger the circle, the better the teammates. The higher up, the harder the competition. Color indicates Corsi Relative %. The further right, the more points/60.

 

Jack....does not look good compared to his fellow rookies

[That Aud Smell]

Eichel played with teammates as good as Larkin?

 

Visual though it may be, this sort of stuff tends to confuse me. What does this teach?

[WildCard]

Eichel played with teammates as good as Larkin?

 

Visual though it may be, this sort of stuff tends to confuse me. What does this teach?

Here is a better chart to illustrate how bad Eichel's line mates were. The X axis indicates quality of teammates via Corsi For Teammates; the further right, the better the teammates. The size variable is Individual Scoring Chances in Higher Danger Areas; the bigger the color, the better the scoring chances in better areas the individual creates

 

 

Edited May 3, 2016 by WildCard

[TrueBlueGED]

Right.

 

I'm at a loss for how and why those stats would throw shade at Eichel..

 

Point of order: the stats are neither throwing nor not throwing shade. Your interpretation of them is that they are throwing shade. Sorry, pet peeve. Please have a lovely day :)

 

That said, I do think they are throwing shade in the sense that they speak to his defensive deficiencies and lackluster play without the puck. I don't think it's shocking he was at his best when Girgensons was on his wing.

 

 

Eichel played with teammates as good as Larkin?

 

Visual though it may be, this sort of stuff tends to confuse me. What does this teach?

 

When the measure of quality of teammates is time on ice, yes. Eichel was in the top-6 all year, as was Larkin. 

The size variable is all the same, so apparently they all played with equal talent.

 

They both played with teammates who were getting similar time on ice. I don't think anyone is going to argue Kane and Zetterberg are equivalent.

[WildCard]

Point of order: the stats are neither throwing nor not throwing shade. Your interpretation of them is that they are throwing shade. Sorry, pet peeve. Please have a lovely day :)

 

That said, I do think they are throwing shade in the sense that they speak to his defensive deficiencies and lackluster play without the puck. I don't think it's shocking he was at his best when Girgensons was on his wing.

 

 

 

When the measure of quality of teammates is time on ice, yes. Eichel was in the top-6 all year, as was Larkin. 

I changed the measure in the 2nd table. It much more accurately reflects the perceived situation of quality of teammates IMO

 

Jack is very, very far left in terms of Corsi% of Teammates. (i.e. his teammates blow) Yet he is still creating High Danger Scoring Chances, individually, at the same rate as McDavid

And another chart to indicate how bad his teammates are. The y axis is now Corsi Against for Teammates; the higher up, the worse your teammates are

 

 

Edited May 3, 2016 by WildCard

[TrueBlueGED]

I changed the measure in the 2nd table. It much more accurately reflects the perceived situation of quality of teammates IMO

 

Jack is very, very far left in terms of Corsi% of Teammates. (i.e. his teammates blow) Yet he is still creating High Danger Scoring Chances, individually, at the same rate as McDavid

 

You changed it while I was posting, how dare you! And yes, I think that works better. I think time on ice is a very good season-long indicator of the quality of competition a player faces since everyone plays everyone and if you're always playing the other team's most used skaters, then yea, rough equivalence emerges. But for teammates? Not the best since it doesn't do anything really to account for difference between each player's team.

[WildCard]

Point of order: the stats are neither throwing nor not throwing shade. Your interpretation of them is that they are throwing shade. Sorry, pet peeve. Please have a lovely day :)

 

That said, I do think they are throwing shade in the sense that they speak to his defensive deficiencies and lackluster play without the puck. I don't think it's shocking he was at his best when Girgensons was on his wing.

 

 

 

When the measure of quality of teammates is time on ice, yes. Eichel was in the top-6 all year, as was Larkin. 

 

They both played with teammates who were getting similar time on ice. I don't think anyone is going to argue Kane and Zetterberg are equivalent.

I changed it  ;)

You changed it while I was posting, how dare you! And yes, I think that works better. I think time on ice is a very good season-long indicator of the quality of competition a player faces since everyone plays everyone and if you're always playing the other team's most used skaters, then yea, rough equivalence emerges. But for teammates? Not the best since it doesn't do anything really to account for difference between each player's team.

:lol:

 

I am really, really going to miss WAR  :(

Edited May 3, 2016 by WildCard

[That Aud Smell]

Point of order: the stats are neither throwing nor not throwing shade. Your interpretation of them is that they are throwing shade. Sorry, pet peeve. Please have a lovely day :)

 

I was not purporting to interpret them, I was responding to WildCard's interpretation of them. 

 

 

When the measure of quality of teammates is time on ice, yes. Eichel was in the top-6 all year, as was Larkin. 

 

They both played with teammates who were getting similar time on ice. I don't think anyone is going to argue Kane and Zetterberg are equivalent.

 

Well, good Lord, then.

That said, I do think they are throwing shade in the sense that they speak to his defensive deficiencies and lackluster play without the puck. I don't think it's shocking he was at his best when Girgensons was on his wing.

 

This is helpful.

But for teammates? Not the best Maybe sorta misleading since it doesn't do anything really to account for difference between each player's team.

 

That's my take.

[WildCard]

I fixed it!

[That Aud Smell]

I changed the measure in the 2nd table. It much more accurately reflects the perceived situation of quality of teammates IMO

 

Jack is very, very far left in terms of Corsi% of Teammates. (i.e. his teammates blow) Yet he is still creating High Danger Scoring Chances, individually, at the same rate as McDavid

And another chart to indicate how bad his teammates are. The y axis is now Corsi Against for Teammates; the higher up, the worse your teammates are

 

This is getting hilarious. Upthread, I'm all: I HATE YOU WILDCARD AND YOUR ANTI-JACK STATS.

 

Now I'm all: YIPPEE! STATS ARE THE BESTEST. MWAH!

[TrueBlueGED]

This is getting hilarious. Upthread, I'm all: I HATE YOU WILDCARD AND YOUR ANTI-JACK STATS.

 

Now I'm all: YIPPEE! STATS ARE THE BESTEST. MWAH!

 

I now have this mental image of you spinning around in your chair like a little kid.

[qwksndmonster]

I think the part that got me was "if he doesn't start moving his feet he'll be an average player." I don't see how anybody can say that.

 

Jack had some inconsistency this year, but he also consistently improved in almost every way as the year went on. He engaged more, skated harder, and tried to put the team on his back dog.  Next year he won't be a 19 year old rookie playing the longest schedule of his life against the best competition of his life.  It'll merely be another year in the NHL for young Jack Eichel.

 

Don't you dare say anything bad about my Jack.

[That Aud Smell]

I now have this mental image of you spinning around in your chair like a little kid.

 

wholly accurate, as it happens. albeit ... incomplete.

 

:ph34r:

[WildCard]

I think the part that got me was "if he doesn't start moving his feet he'll be an average player." I don't see how anybody can say that.

 

Jack had some inconsistency this year, but he also consistently improved in almost every way as the year went on. He engaged more, skated harder, and tried to put the team on his back dog.  Next year he won't be a 19 year old rookie playing the longest schedule of his life against the best competition of his life.  It'll merely be another year in the NHL for young Jack Eichel.

 

Don't you dare say anything bad about my Jack.

Maybe not average, but not top 5, or top 10. He needs to move his feet, in every zone, or else he isn't going to get loose pucks, and he'll spend all of his time in the defensive zone

This is getting hilarious. Upthread, I'm all: I HATE YOU WILDCARD AND YOUR ANTI-JACK STATS.

 

Now I'm all: YIPPEE! STATS ARE THE BESTEST. MWAH!

:lol:

 

I think the inference we can draw from the combination of the WOWY and WAR charts, is that, while Eichel's teammates don't help him at all, he doesn't elevate their play either. 

And again, looking at that WAR chart, you wonder if the quality of teammates is brought down by his forward pair, or his defense behind him

Edited May 3, 2016 by WildCard

[ubkev]

I think the inference we can draw from the combination of the WOWY and WAR charts, is that, while Eichel's teammates don't help him at all, he doesn't elevate their play either.

 

 

You can't turn chicken into chicken salad.

[qwksndmonster]

Maybe not average, but not top 5, or top 10. He needs to move his feet, in every zone, or else he isn't going to get loose pucks, and he'll spend all of his time in the defensive zone

Even if Jack's game away from the puck didn't improve at all he could still have O'Reilly and Girgensons as his wingers and be considered a top 10 player in the league (mostly because he doesn't play in the western conference).  Elite offensive centers often aren't relied on to do it all.

 

That said, we know Jack's backcheck game is strong, if he can indeed make marked improvement in the other away-from-the-puck skills then he really will be a top 10 player in the league, and not just considered that.  I don't think it's a stretch to expect that of Jack at all.

[WildCard]

Even if Jack's game away from the puck didn't improve at all he could still have O'Reilly and Girgensons as his wingers and be considered a top 10 player in the league (mostly because he doesn't play in the western conference).  Elite offensive centers often aren't relied on to do it all.

 

That said, we know Jack's backcheck game is strong, if he can indeed make marked improvement in the other away-from-the-puck skills then he really will be a top 10 player in the league, and not just considered that.  I don't think it's a stretch to expect that of Jack at all.

But they are. Every coach says the same thing about the best players in the league, they are great away from the puck.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to expect it either, but I need to see it more often next season. In tight, he has to have quicker feet.  

You can't turn chicken ###### into chicken salad.

huh?

[qwksndmonster]

You can't turn chicken ###### into chicken salad.

Or, like Blue said, when Kane and Samson weren't with Jack they were with O'Reilly, so the WOWY stats don't tell the whole story there. Also, ain't nobody elevating Matt Moulson's play anymore.

[WildCard]

On another note, don't be surprised if Bruce Boudreau end up in Calgary

[TrueBlueGED]

Even if Jack's game away from the puck didn't improve at all he could still have O'Reilly and Girgensons as his wingers and be considered a top 10 player in the league (mostly because he doesn't play in the western conference).  Elite offensive centers often aren't relied on to do it all.

 

That said, we know Jack's backcheck game is strong, if he can indeed make marked improvement in the other away-from-the-puck skills then he really will be a top 10 player in the league, and not just considered that.  I don't think it's a stretch to expect that of Jack at all.

 

To me, this really gets at the key: finding him the right complementary wingers. He doesn't need a 50 goal winger, he needs wingers who can do the other stuff. I honestly think O'Reilly would be a better winger for him than Stamkos.

[WildCard]

Or, like Blue said, when Kane and Samson weren't with Jack they were with O'Reilly, so the WOWY stats don't tell the whole story there. Also, ain't nobody elevating Matt Moulson's play anymore.

I mean, that's still two players. McGinn, Zemgus' stats, hell even Moulson's CF%, are all better without Jack

[TrueBlueGED]

On another note, don't be surprised if Bruce Boudreau end up in Calgary

 

That would be a coup for Calgary--team has a lot of talent, but Hartley was awful. If it happens I expect them to be a playoff team, and Boudreau to get a ton of Jack Adams hype.

[qwksndmonster]

But they are. Every coach says the same thing about the best players in the league, they are great away from the puck.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to expect it either, but I need to see it more often next season. In tight, he has to have quicker feet.  

What about Kuznetsov, is he great away from the puck? Or merely okay?  What about Tyler Seguin?

I mean, that's still two players. McGinn, Zemgus' stats, hell even Moulson's CF%, are all better without Jack

McGinn also got to play with O'Reilly a lot, and Moulson got to play against chumps on the 4th line when he wasn't anchored to Jack.

[WildCard]

What about Kuznetsov, is he great away from the puck? Or merely okay?  What about Tyler Seguin?

I don't watch either of them enough. I don't think Kuz is an elite offensive center yet though. I'll tell you this though, without Seguin, his teammates stats suffer

 

Crosby is phenomenal away from the puck, and so is Bergeron

That would be a coup for Calgary--team has a lot of talent, but Hartley was awful. If it happens I expect them to be a playoff team, and Boudreau to get a ton of Jack Adams hype.

I find it too coincidental that he gets fired and then the Flames fire Hartley. Calgary was just waiting for a Julien, Hitchcock, or Bruce to become available 

Edited May 3, 2016 by WildCard

[qwksndmonster]

To me, this really gets at the key: finding him the right complementary wingers. He doesn't need a 50 goal winger, he needs wingers who can do the other stuff. I honestly think O'Reilly would be a better winger for him than Stamkos.

Why not both?  :wub: