SwampD Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 I can honestly say that I don't know if Jack not being a finalist for the Caulder is unfair or not. I haven't seen enough of the others to say one way or the other. What I did see was impressive enough for me to not question it. I also know that I couldn't give two shlitz. Tyler Myers won the Caulder. How much could it mean?
dudacek Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) I just really think it's funny that Jack actually did have atrocious WOWYs. Like, what are WOWYs? ???? Edited May 3, 2016 by dudacek
TrueBlueGED Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 I just really think it's funny that Jack actually did have atrocious WOWYs. Like, what ###### are WOWYs? Just another example of why you should never look at a single stat. Of course, no serious statistical analyst does, so...
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 Just another example of why you should never look at a single stat. Of course, no serious statistical analyst does, so... I mean, what is the downside in that stat? It appears to be everything we want it to be. Look at McDavid's and Bergeron's, they're unreal
TrueBlueGED Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) I mean, what is the downside in that stat? It appears to be everything we want it to be. Look at McDavid's and Bergeron's, they're unreal It has the same downfall as every other stat in isolation: doesn't take into account context. Who are the players with when they're apart and how does usage/competition differ? For instance, I'd expect Eichel's stats without Reinhart to suck if Reinhart is replaced with Moulson. But a raw WOWY doesn't tell you that. I love WOWY, it might be my favorite singular tool, but still have to think about other stuff. On that note, anyone who wants to spend money on hockey stats (I expect this number to be me, and....me), you should really check out Micah Blake McCurdy's hockeyviz.com. For only $5 a month, you get access to awesome things like this: Note: I am not Micah Blake McCurdy. I am not married, nor do I have children (you're all welcome), nor do I live in Canada. Edited May 3, 2016 by TrueBlueGED
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) Then the stats should vary from player to player when looking at who is missing from the line, but it doesn't. If taking away a single element consistently affects the corresponding prices then that isolated element is to be the source of the upheaval Edited May 3, 2016 by WildCard
TrueBlueGED Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 Then the stats should vary from player to player when looking at who is missing from the line, but it doesn't. If taking away a single element consistently affects the corresponding prices then that isolated element is to be the source of the upheaval I've been drinking too heavily to unpack this properly, I'm sorry (I may or may not have busted open the Dogfish Head 120 before my last lecture this week). Either treat me like a child or give me until tomorrow :lol:
Randall Flagg Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 Thanks for the analysis again True, you're a hero.
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) I've been drinking too heavily to unpack this properly, I'm sorry (I may or may not have busted open the Dogfish Head 120 before my last lecture this week). Either treat me like a child or give me until tomorrow :lol: Fair enough :lol: Basically, every player's stats are better without Jack than Jack's are without them http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1292&withagainst=true&season=2015-16&sit=5v5 Graphical views http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayerwowycharts.php?pid=1292&season=2015-16&sit=5v5 For comparison, here's McDavid's. Players see a near 10% decrease without him in terms of GF%, and are worse off without him in possession http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1315&withagainst=true&season=2015-16&sit=5v5 Ghost's just aren't even fair http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=2015&withagainst=true&season=2015-16&sit=5v5 They're both pretty much single-handedly responsible for their team's scoring abilities. The only explanation I can see in defense of Eichel, but not in discrediting McDavid/Ghost, is that, well, Eichel has better talent around him, and so he isn't the only person who drives the entire offense. But even that falls short when comparing Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds <=> Hall, RNH, Eberle <=> ROR, Kane, Reinhart It makes me believe that perhaps we are wrong in our evaluation of Jack, rather than that of the stats Edited May 3, 2016 by WildCard
TrueBlueGED Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 Fair enough :lol: Basically, every player's stats are better without Jack than Jack's are without them http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1292&withagainst=true&season=2015-16&sit=5v5 Graphical views http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayerwowycharts.php?pid=1292&season=2015-16&sit=5v5 For comparison, here's McDavid's. Players see a near 10% decrease without him in terms of GF%, and are worse off without him in possession http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1315&withagainst=true&season=2015-16&sit=5v5 Ghost's just aren't even fair http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=2015&withagainst=true&season=2015-16&sit=5v5 Chad Johnson is a beast. (I'll see myself out)
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 Chad Johnson is a beast. (I'll see myself out) I knew someone was going to pick up on that :lol: :lol:
TrueBlueGED Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 I knew someone was going to pick up on that :lol: :lol: ...It's possible I associated blue=good like the War on Ice charts, as opposed to the positional coloring at Hockey Analysis. This OKC-SAS game is awesome.
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 ...It's possible I associated blue=good like the War on Ice charts, as opposed to the positional coloring at Hockey Analysis. This OKC-SAS game is awesome.I've even watching that too. What a call by Pop to get Aldridge to the line Can't believe they didn't win right there
TrueBlueGED Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 I've even watching that too. What a call by Pop to get Aldridge to the line Can't believe they didn't win right there Popovich is the best coach in the league. I don't care that the Warriors had the best record of all time, I'll take Pop over Kerr.
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 Popovich is the best coach in the league. I don't care that the Warriors had the best record of all time, I'll take Pop over Kerr.I think that's an easy call honestly
TrueBlueGED Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 I think that's an easy call honestly God I love Popovich. He hates the 3 point shot, but his team took the second most in the league. He knows what works even if he doesn't like it, and he's willing to set aside his preference for what's best. He's like my doppelganger with respect to the value of defensive hockey. He's also a crotchety old bastard, which I am rapidly becoming. Long live Pop!
Thorner Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 It's just that not having Eichel as a finalist is complete and utter nonsense. And to not even discuss him, as the Canadian media is wont to do, is totally indefensible. Top-2 in every major category, all while having garbage linemates for most of the year. He played over 200 even strength minutes with Matt Moulson! He was 51st in the entire league in individual primary points percentage among players with over 500 minutes. Gostisbehere? 342nd. McDavid? 70th. Panarin? 138th. Just garbage. Gotta agree. McDavid is the one that bothers me most, the more I think about it. He played 45 games. That's not enough of a season, for me, to be in the running for an award that is awarded for the best season. It's just not enough. If you think the Canadian media bothers you, try being here. It's hard to explain how persistent the waves of bias are, and media can seemingly talk for hours on end about the rookie class and not even mention Eichel. Bonkers. Remember that show, Bonkers?
That Aud Smell Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 It makes me believe that perhaps we are wrong in our evaluation of Jack, rather than that of the stats Wait - so, Eichel isn't very good after all? I've been a casual but big fan of #fancystats for years now. Statements like this, though, make me consider a return to dinosaur ways.
Brawndo Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 John Shannon @JSportsnet 7s 8 seconds ago Bob Hartley has been removed as Flames coach.
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 Wait - so, Eichel isn't very good after all? I've been a casual but big fan of #fancystats for years now. Statements like this, though, make me consider a return to dinosaur ways. Another way to look at it is, the gap between Eichel and all of his teammates isn't huge in WOWY; nobody is really all that affected when playing with him or without him. That can mean our team is balanced. But, even looking at him against Larkin, and McDavid, just straight up (no wowy stats), he really doesn't come off that well. Without his shot, Jack would have had a terrible season. Now, I know that's like saying 'Well without Ovechkin's shot he would have put up 20 goals'. Granted that's true, but I think what it shows is that Jack really, really needs to get in better shape for a long grind, mentally and physically, and if he doesn't start moving his feet, he's going to be an average player. I expect much more out of Jack next season John Shannon @JSportsnet 7s 8 seconds ago Bob Hartley has been removed as Flames coach. Damn. Did not see that coming
3putt Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 Wait - so, Eichel isn't very good after all? I've been a casual but big fan of #fancystats for years now. Statements like this, though, make me consider a return to dinosaur ways. That's what it says in the yearbook Jim.
Rasmus_ Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 Another way to look at it is, the gap between Eichel and all of his teammates isn't huge in WOWY; nobody is really all that affected when playing with him or without him. That can mean our team is balanced. But, even looking at him against Larkin, and McDavid, just straight up (no wowy stats), he really doesn't come off that well. Without his shot, Jack would have had a terrible season. Now, I know that's like saying 'Well without Ovechkin's shot he would have put up 20 goals'. Granted that's true, but I think what it shows is that Jack really, really needs to get in better shape for a long grind, mentally and physically, and if he doesn't start moving his feet, he's going to be an average player. I expect much more out of Jack next season Damn. Did not see that coming Hartley is very terse, and he has worn out his welcome in Colorado and Atlanta. It was a matter of time. He is who he is, nothing but respect for him to get what he got out of Calgary. The goal tending fell apart and Hamilton did not mesh as well as they thought initially.
3putt Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 But, even looking at him against Larkin, and McDavid, just straight up (no wowy stats), he really doesn't come off that well. Without his shot, Jack would have had a terrible season. Now, I know that's like saying 'Well without Ovechkin's shot he would have put up 20 goals'. Granted that's true, but I think what it shows is that Jack really, really needs to get in better shape for a long grind, mentally and physically, and if he doesn't start moving his feet, he's going to be an average player. I expect much more out of Jack next season Damn. Did not see that coming This is almost laughable if I wasn't so concerned that you actually believe it. Take Eichel away from the team and everyone's production would have gone down. He drew the gameplan of the oppistion night in and out. Nobody game plans to stop ROR. There is no need. Larkin was a winger with Datsyuk and McDavid had Hall and a cast of thousands. Being the guy at center with kane and Moulson didn't help. Especially early year Kane. Some of this system influenced.
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 This is almost laughable if I wasn't so concerned that you actually believe it. Take Eichel away from the team and everyone's production would have gone down. He drew the gameplan of the oppistion night in and out. Nobody game plans to stop ROR. There is no need. Larkin was a winger with Datsyuk and McDavid had Hall and a cast of thousands. Being the guy at center with kane and Moulson didn't help. Especially early year Kane. Some of this system influenced. I'm just stating what the stats say.
That Aud Smell Posted May 3, 2016 Report Posted May 3, 2016 I'm just stating what the stats say. Right. I'm at a loss for how and why those stats would throw shade at Eichel..
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