Trade ideas and speculation

[nfreeman]

A #21 overall, a #12 overall with 2 years development, a #16 overall with 1 year development, AND a rostered NHL vet for #3? Way too steep IMO. This isn't a franchise player we'd be drafting.

I don't agree. Each of the four assets the Sabres would be giving up has a substantial possibility of washing out, while the number three overall pick historically has a very low probability of washing out, and a very good likelihood of becoming an impact player, if not a franchise player.

 

I would make this trade in a heartbeat.

[stinky finger]

You mean "Malkin for Grigorenko and a ham sandwich, but Pittsburgh better ask nicely or I might change my mind?"

I'd do it if the swine were Krakus.

[Huckleberry]

Anyone think Voynov could be a trade candidate?  with his future up in the air because of the legal issues I would take a gamble on him.

He might come cheap because of it and LA's cap situation.

[LGR4GM]

Anyone think Voynov could be a trade candidate?  with his future up in the air because of the legal issues I would take a gamble on him.

He might come cheap because of it and LA's cap situation.

I some how think trading for a guy who smacked his wife wouldn't really sit well with some guys in our locker room.  

[Lanny]

Allegedly kicked, punched, choked and threw her into a TV. Not interested.

[Brawndo]

Anthony Mantha is available per Damien Cox. Any interest?

 

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/headlines-maple-leafs-to-go-to-draft-with-no-gm/

Edited June 14, 2015 by BRAWNDO

[Hoss]

Anthony Mantha is available per Damien Cox. Any interest?

 

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/headlines-maple-leafs-to-go-to-draft-with-no-gm/

They're willing to listen on him, which I view as being SLIGHTLY different.

If both Mantha and their first are available I wonder if they try to swing a deal for Eric Staal so they can move Datsyuk to wing to extend his career.

[LGR4GM]

Anthony Mantha is available per Damien Cox. Any interest?

 

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/headlines-maple-leafs-to-go-to-draft-with-no-gm/

I've heard rumors out of Detroit that Mantha's work ethic is questioned and he has been known to float during games.  

[deluca67]

They're willing to listen on him, which I view as being SLIGHTLY different.

If both Mantha and their first are available I wonder if they try to swing a deal for Eric Staal so they can move Datsyuk to wing to extend his career.

Staal to the Red Wings would do wonders for Datsyuk and Staal. Staal is wasting away his prime down in Carolina. 

[Two or less]

I've heard rumors out of Detroit that Mantha's work ethic is questioned and he has been known to float during games.  

 

Interesting. But he did score 15 goals as a rookie in the AHL, that's pretty impressive for a guy of his age to do.

[LGR4GM]

Interesting. But he did score 15 goals as a rookie in the AHL, that's pretty impressive for a guy of his age to do.

How do you feel about Grigorenko?

[Hoss]

How do you feel about Grigorenko?

I was hoping somebody would make this comment.

[LGR4GM]

I was hoping somebody would make this comment.

I honestly want to hear from people. Mantha is awesome or worth the risk because of his AHL production, so how do people feel about Mikhail Grigorenko?

[Hoss]

I honestly want to hear from people. Mantha is awesome or worth the risk because of his AHL production, so how do people feel about Mikhail Grigorenko?

A ton of people have said they're not too excited with Grigorenko. A few, such as Taro, still believe he'll be a top-six centre. I believe he will get a shot at NHL success and still has value.

 

Mantha is only four months younger (to the day) than Grigorenko and is viewed as one of the game's top scoring prospects, yet Grigorenko has more points (14-26-40 in 52 games) in ten fewer games compared to Mantha (15-18-33 in 62 games) in the AHL.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Hoss

[nfreeman]

I honestly want to hear from people. Mantha is awesome or worth the risk because of his AHL production, so how do people feel about Mikhail Grigorenko?

I can only speak for myself, but I don't think anyone is lobbying for the Sabres to dump Griggy. OTOH, I'm pretty skeptical that he'll be good enough to play top-9 minutes in the NHL this year, and I think there remains a good likelihood that he'll wash out entirely.

 

The right answer is for him to play this year in the AHL. If he burns it up -- great, let's see him in the NHL during the 2nd half of the season. Unfortunately, due to the Sabres butchering his contract situation, he has to clear waivers, and I don't think he will. So that means the Sabres either keep him in Buffalo all year, trade him, or watch him skip off to the KHL and retain his NHL rights. Given those options, having him go to the KHL, play a lot of minutes for a couple of years and then return to the Sabres might not be a bad outcome.

[kas23]

A ton of people have said they're not too excited with Grigorenko. A few, such as Taro, still believe he'll be a top-six centre. I believe he will get a shot at NHL success and still has value.

 

Mantha is only four months younger (to the day) than Grigorenko and is viewed as one of the game's top scoring prospects, yet Grigorenko has more points (14-26-40 in 52 games) in ten fewer games compared to Mantha (15-18-33 in 62 games) in the AHL.

One of game's top scoring prospects, but his Head Coach, a guy well-respected for developing talent and knows Mantha the most, is ready to dump him? Something is definitely fishy with this situation. I would be wary.

[Weave]

I still think Grigo will have a pretty decent NHL career, if he doesn't play long term in the K anyway.  Will it be in Buffalo?  He's likely got two centers ahead of him in the depth chart.  It might not be here, but I think he's got #2 center in him.

Edited June 14, 2015 by weave

[deluca67]

I honestly want to hear from people. Mantha is awesome or worth the risk because of his AHL production, so how do people feel about Mikhail Grigorenko?

What you have here may be a perfect trade scenario for the Sabres. You have a 12th overall pick in Grigorenko that is floundering within the organization so what do you do with him. You look for a team with a decent prospect that for one reason or another is falling out of favor and may be willing to move him. Sometimes an asset runs it's course sooner than anticipated so flipping that asset for a similar asset in the hopes the change can effect the assets in a positive way. The only issue I see is from a Detroit standpoint, I can see where they wouldn't feel the two assets involved are equal and may require additional compensation likely in the form of a draft pick. Mantha is a little bit bigger. If I'm Detroit I would at least want a conditional third round pick, possibly turning into a second, in a Mantha for Grigorenko deal. 

Edited June 14, 2015 by DeLuca1967

[thesportsbuff]

I honestly want to hear from people. Mantha is awesome or worth the risk because of his AHL production, so how do people feel about Mikhail Grigorenko?

 

 

A ton of people have said they're not too excited with Grigorenko. A few, such as Taro, still believe he'll be a top-six centre. I believe he will get a shot at NHL success and still has value.

 

Mantha is only four months younger (to the day) than Grigorenko and is viewed as one of the game's top scoring prospects, yet Grigorenko has more points (14-26-40 in 52 games) in ten fewer games compared to Mantha (15-18-33 in 62 games) in the AHL.

 

Well to be fair, Mantha isn't viewed as one of the game's top prospects because of his AHL production, so I'm not sure that comparing those stats says a whole lot. Especially since Grigorenko has 3 years of pro experience including some NHL time -- he should be out-producing a rookie in the AHL, even if they are the same age. 

 

To your point about Grigorenko, I think hockey fans around the league probably still consider Grigorenko a viable prospect. I personally think there's still hope for him. I think it is mostly Sabres fans who have labeled him a bust, and it's probably just because after three years, it "feels" like he should have made a bigger impact by now, even though that's completely overlooking his age.

Edited June 14, 2015 by thesportsbuff

[TrueBlueGED]

The problem with Grigorenko is one of perception. He was sold as a top-3 pick who slid, so that's where expectations are. But his production has been what you should expect of a 12th overall pick. As many have said, the issue with respect to sticking around is the contract: we can't treat him like a typical 12th overall pick contractually. Sucks.

[Hoss]

Well to be fair, Mantha isn't viewed as one of the game's top prospects because of his AHL production, so I'm not sure that comparing those stats says a whole lot. Especially since Grigorenko has 3 years of pro experience including some NHL time -- he should be out-producing a rookie in the AHL, even if they are the same age.

 

To your point about Grigorenko, I think hockey fans around the league probably still consider Grigorenko a viable prospect. I personally think there's still hope for him. I think it is mostly Sabres fans who have labeled him a bust, and it's probably just because after three years, it "feels" like he should have made a bigger impact by now, even though that's completely overlooking his age.

"Three years of pro experience." Not really. He's got a total of 68 NHL games over three seasons (avg. of just under 23 games).

Besides a small mix of NHL time in three seasons versus Mantha's zero NHL time Grigorenko has the advantage of two more NHL camps... But I don't think that's enough to just shrug off the AHL number comparison.

 

Grigorenko has been better in less time in the AHL. Unless we completely disregard AHL numbers when judging a prospect then it's completely fair to make the comparison.

 

 

Completely agree with the last paragraph and TrueBlue's post.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Hoss

[dudacek]

I posted something on Grigo/Mantha a few months back, but that was mostly to chill pill those who were touting Mantha as the Second Coming.

 

There are a ton of statistical similarities even going back to junior, not to mention both are big with great hands, average skating and questionable compete.

 

If both sides have soured on their prospects, there could be a trade possibility in there.

[deluca67]

The problem with Grigorenko is one of perception. He was sold as a top-3 pick who slid, so that's where expectations are. But his production has been what you should expect of a 12th overall pick. As many have said, the issue with respect to sticking around is the contract: we can't treat him like a typical 12th overall pick contractually. Sucks.

I had thought that there was some concerns about Grigorenko before the draft, that he was a risky pick. Here is what one site said about him before the draft. 

 

Analysis: Grigorenko is this year’s most polarizing player. He’s an exceptionally gifted offensive player — when he wants to be, which isn’t quite often enough. His consistency is an issue and he came under fire for a disappointing playoffs, but it was later discovered he was playing with mononucleosis. When he’s on his game, he’s an electrifying scorer with imposing size and skill. Grigorenko has done everything he can to prove his sincerity towards playing in the NHL in the weeks leading up to the draft.

[TrueBlueGED]

I had thought that there was some concerns about Grigorenko before the draft, that he was a risky pick. Here is what one site said about him before the draft.

 

Analysis: Grigorenko is this year’s most polarizing player. He’s an exceptionally gifted offensive player — when he wants to be, which isn’t quite often enough. His consistency is an issue and he came under fire for a disappointing playoffs, but it was later discovered he was playing with mononucleosis. When he’s on his game, he’s an electrifying scorer with imposing size and skill. Grigorenko has done everything he can to prove his sincerity towards playing in the NHL in the weeks leading up to the draft.

My point was that I don't think so many fans would be down on him if he had been treated like your average 12th overall pick. That's not to say he'd be a better player right now, just that fan perception would be much more optimistic. He had a great junior career, a great World Juniors last year, and a good AHL rookie season. The problem is all of that came after he was sold as NHL ready when clearly he wasn't.

[deluca67]

My point was that I don't think so many fans would be down on him if he had been treated like your average 12th overall pick. That's not to say he'd be a better player right now, just that fan perception would be much more optimistic. He had a great junior career, a great World Juniors last year, and a good AHL rookie season. The problem is all of that came after he was sold as NHL ready when clearly he wasn't.

IMO, being a 1st round pick is the only reason he is a topic in the first place. Same exact results but drafted in the 2nd and 3rd I doubt he gets much mention at all. You are right that the early push to the NHL has skewed expectations. Realistically we are looking at a player that is at least 2-3 years away from being NHL ready if ever.