Hoss Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 Then he is worth what a 1st line player would get in a trade. That has been this entire argument. If he is X then you have to pay for X. No more of these 21st and Pysyk trade ideas. We are talking Rasmus, Zemgus, 21st and something. To me that isn't worth it. Nobody that has been banging the drum to get O'Reilly is doing "Pysyk and 21." It's been Zadorov, 21 +. Some have said Zemgus, 21 +. And two things go strongly against your assertion that players on his level would cost Rasmus, Zemgus 21+: his contract and that other players on his level haven't cost that.
LGR4GM Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Nobody that has been banging the drum to get O'Reilly is doing "Pysyk and 21." It's been Zadorov, 21 +. Some have said Zemgus, 21 +. And two things go strongly against your assertion that players on his level would cost Rasmus, Zemgus 21+: his contract and that other players on his level haven't cost that. Zadorov and 21 + what? Unless you say Ennis, Zemgus, Samson or someone else you aren't getting a 1st line 24yr old player. Kid has an entire year on his contract so it barely affects the value. Other players on his level such as? Rick Nash cost more. Staal cost more. Hell Evander Kane cost more. Tyler Seguin cost more. Zadorov is a prospect still. 21 is an unknown. Unless you are adding something of great value at the end every single other first line player who was traded cost more. Compher, Bailey, Baptiste are all upper mid level prospect. None of that should get you a first line player. Edited June 22, 2015 by LGR4GM
Hoss Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 Zadorov and 21 + what? Unless you say Ennis, Zemgus, Samson or someone else you aren't getting a 1st line 24yr old player. Kid has an entire year on his contract so it barely affects the value. Other players on his level such as? Rick Nash cost more. Staal cost more. Hell Evander Kane cost more. Tyler Seguin cost more. Zadorov is a prospect still. 21 is an unknown. Unless you are adding something of great value at the end every single other first line player who was traded cost more. Compher, Bailey, Baptiste are all upper mid level prospect. None of that should get you a first line player. If you think his contract situation doesn't greatly impact his value then you're not paying attention. Did Kane get more than Rasmus, Zemgus, 21+? Hell no. Neither did any of the guys you named.
LGR4GM Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Posted June 22, 2015 If you think his contract situation doesn't greatly impact his value then you're not paying attention. Did Kane get more than Rasmus, Zemgus, 21+? Hell no. Neither did any of the guys you named. Wow Hoss way to change the game in the middle. Good thing I can read. Zadorov does not equate to Rasmus. We are currently talking about a pick, prospect, player. His contract may impact it but any team trading for O'Reilly believes they can sign him otherwise they don't make the deal. Nash was traded for 2 NHL players, a top defensive propsect and a 1st round pick. The Seguin trade was terrible from the start but it included 3 NHL players and a sweetner, this is probably the best trade to point to and be like LOOK! crap for greatness! Evander Kane cost Stafford, Armia, Lemiuex, and a 1st rounder which is close to Zadorov, Zemgus, and a 1st. So again, let's cut the . If you want ROR you need to be willing to give up 1 of Zadorov, Pysyk, McCabe. One of Zemgus or Ennis, 21st overall pick, and a true prospect like Compher, Bailey, Baptiste. Do you think that is worth it? I personally do not.
Hoss Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 Wow Hoss way to change the game in the middle. Good thing I can read. Zadorov does not equate to Rasmus. We are currently talking about a pick, prospect, player. His contract may impact it but any team trading for O'Reilly believes they can sign him otherwise they don't make the deal. Nash was traded for 2 NHL players, a top defensive propsect and a 1st round pick. The Seguin trade was terrible from the start but it included 3 NHL players and a sweetner, this is probably the best trade to point to and be like LOOK! crap for greatness! Evander Kane cost Stafford, Armia, Lemiuex, and a 1st rounder which is close to Zadorov, Zemgus, and a 1st. So again, let's cut the ######. If you want ROR you need to be willing to give up 1 of Zadorov, Pysyk, McCabe. One of Zemgus or Ennis, 21st overall pick, and a true prospect like Compher, Bailey, Baptiste. Do you think that is worth it? I personally do not. Your original point was that we MUST give Risto, Zemgus, 21+. That's why my post just mentioned that. Also, Nash was considered to be a better player when he was traded. But he still didn't cost Rasmus, Zemgus, 21+...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Then he is worth what a 1st line player would get in a trade. That has been this entire argument. If he is X then you have to pay for X. No more of these 21st and Pysyk trade ideas. We are talking Rasmus, Zemgus, 21st and something. To me that isn't worth it. I already stated in this thread I'm willing to move Ennis or Bogosian (I think I'd rather trade him than Pysyk) as the centerpiece of the deal. Nash was dealt for a 2nd line player, a 3rd line player, a crappy prospect, and a late-1st...but there was also certainty that he was going to be around since he had a bazillion years left on his contract. In terms of point production, Given the contract situation I expect the actual price if he's dealt, be it here or elsewhere, to be around a solid NHL piece, 1st or 2nd round pick (sliding depending on quality of the player), and a meh prospect. Ennis/21/Ruhwedel? I do it, although I plug my nose while trading Ennis. Edited June 22, 2015 by TrueBluePhD
Hoss Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 I think the Jordan Staal trade is the best comparable. 8, Brandon Sutter and Brian Dumoulin. The comparable for 8 would 21 and a solid prospect. The comparable for Sutter is an interesting debate. He was 23 with three "meh" seasons under his belt. I would think that Zemgus has more value than he did at the time (so if you include Zemgus he bridges the gap between 21 and 8). Domoulin is Pysyk in value at best but likely a bit lower. There's obviously going to be a bidding war for O'Reilly and wasn't one for Staal (since he dictated his future), but there is a contract situation for O'Reilly coming here while there wasn't one with Staal going to Carolina (they knew he wanted to be there long-term). So Zemgus/Zadorov, 21 and a solid prospect would be the comparable for that deal. Really the value of trades are a case-by-case thing. Guys like Mike Richards and Jeff Carter went for a pretty penny with their contract situations cleared up. Andrew Ladd went for pennies on the dollar. It'll be interested to see what Colorado gets if they move him.
Derrico Posted June 23, 2015 Report Posted June 23, 2015 Wow Hoss way to change the game in the middle. Good thing I can read. Zadorov does not equate to Rasmus. We are currently talking about a pick, prospect, player. His contract may impact it but any team trading for O'Reilly believes they can sign him otherwise they don't make the deal. Nash was traded for 2 NHL players, a top defensive propsect and a 1st round pick. The Seguin trade was terrible from the start but it included 3 NHL players and a sweetner, this is probably the best trade to point to and be like LOOK! crap for greatness! Evander Kane cost Stafford, Armia, Lemiuex, and a 1st rounder which is close to Zadorov, Zemgus, and a 1st. So again, let's cut the ######. If you want ROR you need to be willing to give up 1 of Zadorov, Pysyk, McCabe. One of Zemgus or Ennis, 21st overall pick, and a true prospect like Compher, Bailey, Baptiste. Do you think that is worth it? I personally do not. I don't want to get dragged back into this discussion but the bolded part is not even close to being true. Stafford is a pending UFA, Armia is a former 1st but has not shown a ton of promise in the four years he's now been developing, Lemieux who knows and 1st. You think Stafford/Armia = Zemgus and Lemiuex = Zadorov??
Weave Posted June 24, 2015 Report Posted June 24, 2015 Just to make Eleven's eye twitch: Paul Hamilton @pham1717 1h1 hour ago I find this interesting, over 82 games O'Reilly averages 17 goals, 30 assists for 47 pts. Stafford averages 21 goals, 26 assists for 47 pts
darksabre Posted June 24, 2015 Report Posted June 24, 2015 Just to make Eleven's eye twitch: Paul Hamilton @pham1717 1h1 hour ago I find this interesting, over 82 games O'Reilly averages 17 goals, 30 assists for 47 pts. Stafford averages 21 goals, 26 assists for 47 pts I knew I wasn't interested in O'Reilly for a reason. Thanks for providing it to me.
Weave Posted June 24, 2015 Report Posted June 24, 2015 I knew I wasn't interested in O'Reilly for a reason. Thanks for providing it to me. In the context of Stafford I think TBPhD labeled those stats as solidly second line. But he's put a first line label on ROR. :P I keed. I keed.
Hoss Posted June 24, 2015 Report Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) Dave Davis @DaveDavisHockey Ryan O'Reilly was 12th in Selke voting. He got a 1st place vote, two 2nd place, three 3rd place, one 4th place and three 5th place votes. Finished behind Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar, Backes, Datsyuk, Pacioeretty, Hossa, Tyler Johnson, Palat, Kesler and Backstrom. Finished ahead of everybody else. Edited June 24, 2015 by Hoss
TrueBlueGED Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 Just to make Eleven's eye twitch: Paul Hamilton @pham1717 1h1 hour ago I find this interesting, over 82 games O'Reilly averages 17 goals, 30 assists for 47 pts. Stafford averages 21 goals, 26 assists for 47 pts In the context of Stafford I think TBPhD labeled those stats as solidly second line. But he's put a first line label on ROR. :P I keed. I keed. Remember a couple of years back when the Sabres chose Ristolainen, and you trolled me by saying they'd follow it up with Zadorov...and then it actually happened? I hate you more now than I did then :angry:
Weave Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 Remember a couple of years back when the Sabres chose Ristolainen, and you trolled me by saying they'd follow it up with Zadorov...and then it actually happened? I hate you more now than I did then :angry: LOL I did not remember that until you just now mentioned it. What was the context? Were you looking center?
TrueBlueGED Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 LOL I did not remember that until you just now mentioned it. What was the context? Were you looking center? I wanted Nichushkin so badly, never thought he'd be available because many had him ranked as highly as Mac-Drouin-Jones-Barkov...and there he was just waiting for us, and we went D. I was crushed. Then you were all "Think you're disappointed now? Just wait until they take Zadorov at 16."
Weave Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 I wanted Nichushkin so badly, never thought he'd be available because many had him ranked as highly as Mac-Drouin-Jones-Barkov...and there he was just waiting for us, and we went D. I was crushed. Then you were all "Think you're disappointed now? Just wait until they take Zadorov at 16." Bwaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha!
Hoss Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 Nick Kypreos @RealKyper With new contract talks in ballpark of 60M for max contract to resign Ryan O'Reilly, #Avs feel like they have no choice but to trade him. There's a number. So $60M over 8 years (so $7.5M a year). Hell yes I do that.
Derrico Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 Nick Kypreos @RealKyper With new contract talks in ballpark of 60M for max contract to resign Ryan O'Reilly, #Avs feel like they have no choice but to trade him. There's a number. So $60M over 8 years (so $7.5M a year). Hell yes I do that. 7.5 per sounds about right.
X. Benedict Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 Full Confession: I really want Ryan O'Reilly so they can play Baba O'Riley during Power Plays.
X. Benedict Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 Nick Kypreos @RealKyper With new contract talks in ballpark of 60M for max contract to resign Ryan O'Reilly, #Avs feel like they have no choice but to trade him. There's a number. So $60M over 8 years (so $7.5M a year). Hell yes I do that. Yep.
Trettioåtta Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 As the cap basically always increases, in some ways the big contracts are most damaging in their early years. Look at Hossa's contract, huge when he signed it - now very fair value. The same would be true for ROR at 7.5 for 8 years. Plus he would still only be 32 or so when he finished it. We have tons of cap room now, and later (when it matters more) the cap should have increased enough to accommodate it
TrueBlueGED Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 ######, this is really gonna happen, isn't it? For somebody, sure. As others have said, we may not have the pieces that Colorado wants in return...or I'm talking myself into that so I'm not horribly disappointed when he gets traded to Toronto.
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