2015 NHL Playoffs: Round 3

[TrueBlueGED]

So the #1 and #3 score-adjusted Corsi teams end up playing for the Cup (for those curious, #2 was Detroit...ya know, that team that lost to #1 in 7 games). No surprise here :)

[SwampD]

So the #1 and #3 score-adjusted Corsi teams end up playing for the Cup (for those curious, #2 was Detroit...ya know, that team that lost to #1 in 7 games). No surprise here :)

Will you cry if #3 ends up beating #1?

[TrueBlueGED]

Will you cry if #3 ends up beating #1?

 

Absolutely not, but I fully expect somebody to throw it in my face :lol:

[LTS]

At least they aren't throwing #2 in your face.

[TrueBlueGED]

At least they aren't throwing #2 in your face.

 

Indeed! :lol:

[JJFIVEOH]

What "great" players left? Ladd and Byfuglien? They have one playoff appearance since leaving and he traded them.

He's made some good tough decisions. He won a cup. Is that not a positive accomplishment? He's going to another cup. Is that not an accomplishment, six years into his takeover?

 

Or should he have acquired Enroth?

 

 

Your affections are starting to make a lot more sense now.

 

I've grown accustomed to both of your childish, unsubstantiated comments. Grow up and maybe someday people will take you seriously. Until then I'm not wasting my time. 

[Hoss]

I've grown accustomed to both of your childish, unsubstantiated comments. Grow up and maybe someday people will take you seriously. Until then I'm not wasting my time.

The Enroth comment was a little fun. Otherwise you could actually respond to the post. You haven't really supported your position very strongly.

[JJFIVEOH]

I don't see where this 2nd 2nd rounder is coming from, I read over the trade and it says 3rd rounder if they make it past the 2nd round, otherwise a 4th rounder. Source? 

 

Does Tallon deserve credit, yes; he helped form the juggernaut called the Blackhawks through a few drafts, trades, and signings. However to say Bowman is devoid of any significant influence on the team's continued success is absurd. For starters Bowman had to do the next hardest job in maintaining the roster to continue its success. Choosing Hjalmarsson over Niemi was a key but risky move, he put faith in an inexperienced goalie in order to save the 3rd D-man. No matter how many times he's forced to shed his bottom 6 plus the occasional Top 6 player, he continues to retool year after year while leaving their core completely intact. Just look at Pittsburgh, this retooling process is what did them in, they never were able to create a second set of players that with their core could win a Cup. The Johnny Oduya trade was also well done.

 

I will admit, his most recent trades for Vermette and Timonen weren't all that great, but Vermette has certainly played well in these last two series for the Hawks and Timonen strikes me as someone who looked okay for a 6th/7th D-man but just didn't turn out ready enough. The Hawks have at least 2 injured defensemen in Van Riemsdyk and now Rozsival, and Rundblad has proven himself not ready for playoff hockey yet.

 

Brad Richards contrary to what you say in my opinion was a ingenious move by Bowman. The Hawks lacked a 2nd line Center, they signed him ultra cheap, and he's still skilled enough to be stimulated by Kane's elite talent.

 

Bowman isn't perfect, but he's done certainly well enough to keep the ship steered in the right direction.  

 

The second conditional pick turns into a 2nd round pick if the Blackhawks make it to the Finals and Timonen plays in 50% of the games. He's played in 15 games so that takes care of the condition. I'll post the link later when I'm on my computer if you want, for some reason posting a link on my phone only results in this. this HTML class. Value is http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com. 

 

I'm not saying Bowman  hasn't had a hand in keeping this team together. He has, it's not easy keeping together a Cup team after losing all those players. What I was saying is that moving forward is going to be very difficult and they won't be as dominant after this year. There isn't a single team in the league with over 50% of their cap wrapped up in 5 players. I'm not big on Brad Richards.  Decent pickup?  Sure. He's not a difference maker though. If he's their 2nd center then Bowman will have to do something to address that in the off-season. He won't be able to do it after signing Saad and Kruger. 

The Enroth comment was a little fun. Otherwise you could actually respond to the post. You haven't really supported your position very strongly.

I've supported my position pretty well actually. My position was the poor deadline trades and the pending cap issues. You responded to neither. 

[Hoss]

I've supported my position pretty well actually. My position was the poor deadline trades and the pending cap issues. You responded to neither.

Actually you stated that Bowman is riding Tallon's success. That's what I was disputing. Neither of these points have anything to do with that.

He hasn't had any huge deadline success, and they'll have some tough calls coming against the cap... But he has made a ton of moves since taking over. He's not riding on anybody else's success.

The cap issues aren't going to be that major if the cap does rise the way it's supposed to. Was he supposed to let Toews or Kane walk? Trade them for what? He's made decisions that have kept the right pieces in place to win one cup and set them up to compete for another this year.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Hoss

[JJFIVEOH]

Actually you stated that Bowman is riding Tallon's success. That's what I was disputing. Neither of these points have anything to do with that.

He hasn't had any huge deadline success, and they'll have some tough calls coming against the cap... But he has made a ton of moves since taking over. He's not riding on anybody else's success.

The cap issues aren't going to be that major if the cap does rise the way it's supposed to. Was he supposed to let Toews or Kane walk? Trade them for what? He's made decisions that have kept the right pieces in place to win one cup and set them up to compete for another this year.

Actually, my post was clearly focusing on the future of the Blackhawks but you decided to cherry pick what you wanted out of it. I'll pay. Yes, he is riding on Tallon's coattails, without the core he brought in Bowman wouldn't have something to build around. You're right, it's been a while. But this case might be different because most teams don't have the same core six years later. 

 

Nobody said anything about trading Kane or Toews. He made decisions to keep Kane and Toews, that's not a decision that requires a genius. What does require careful planning is everything else around it. They clearly have no room to pay the rest of their team and keep what they have. Nor do they have the cap space to bring in veterans. How do you fill the holes? By developing players and riding their cheap contracts for a few years. You can't do that when you're trading all your picks away for  washed up, unproductive players. A 1st pick for Vermette? Two 2nd's for a 40 year old defenseman that hadn't played for a year?

 

Important decisions to keep the right pieces together....... like $4mil/yr for a 3/4 line forward in Bickell? I recall when many on this board fell in love with him because he had a great playoffs two years ago and I said he's not worth the money but somebody will be stupid enough to sign him. When you're one of the most cap strapped teams in the league, how do you sign a 4th line winger to a $16m/4yr contract? 

 

Now that I've addressed your point, let's address mine. I said the Blackhawks better win it this year because they're going to have difficulty getting another one in the near future. They have 5 players taking up over half the cap space, no other team in the league can say that. They still need to sign Saad and Kruger who as of this moment account for approx $2mil against the cap combined. That will be significantly higher next year. How does he rectify the situation? He's in no position to retain salary. Is anybody stupid enough to trade for, and pay, $6,000,000 a year for Patrick Sharp? $4,000,000 a year for Bryan Bickell? Dare I throw Crawford into that group? 

 

Regardless, there are plenty of teams that are grateful that Bowman had to deal away players and prospects. 

[JJFIVEOH]

Timonen trade details.

 

https://twitter.com/Real_ESPNLeBrun/status/571483469122912256

 

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/27/flyers-trade-kimmo-timonen-to-blackhawks/

Edited May 31, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[Hoss]

Actually, my post was clearly focusing on the future of the Blackhawks but you decided to cherry pick what you wanted out of it. I'll pay. Yes, he is riding on Tallon's coattails, without the core he brought in Bowman wouldn't have something to build around. You're right, it's been a while. But this case might be different because most teams don't have the same core six years later. 

 

Nobody said anything about trading Kane or Toews. He made decisions to keep Kane and Toews, that's not a decision that requires a genius. What does require careful planning is everything else around it. They clearly have no room to pay the rest of their team and keep what they have. Nor do they have the cap space to bring in veterans. How do you fill the holes? By developing players and riding their cheap contracts for a few years. You can't do that when you're trading all your picks away for  washed up, unproductive players. A 1st pick for Vermette? Two 2nd's for a 40 year old defenseman that hadn't played for a year?

 

Important decisions to keep the right pieces together....... like $4mil/yr for a 3/4 line forward in Bickell? I recall when many on this board fell in love with him because he had a great playoffs two years ago and I said he's not worth the money but somebody will be stupid enough to sign him. When you're one of the most cap strapped teams in the league, how do you sign a 4th line winger to a $16m/4yr contract? 

 

Now that I've addressed your point, let's address mine. I said the Blackhawks better win it this year because they're going to have difficulty getting another one in the near future. They have 5 players taking up over half the cap space, no other team in the league can say that. They still need to sign Saad and Kruger who as of this moment account for approx $2mil against the cap combined. That will be significantly higher next year. How does he rectify the situation? He's in no position to retain salary. Is anybody stupid enough to trade for, and pay, $6,000,000 a year for Patrick Sharp? $4,000,000 a year for Bryan Bickell? Dare I throw Crawford into that group? 

 

Regardless, there are plenty of teams that are grateful that Bowman had to deal away players and prospects. 

A lot of what you're saying it spot on, but I still don't think it points to him riding Tallon's coattails.

 

The Timmonen and Vermette trades this year may be due to what you're arguing: they know they may have to make some major cuts soon so they've got to go for it while it's still "easy." They overpaid on both, but they were risks worth taking. The team is where they are now despite those two moves, and Vermette has contributed since OT in game four of this series. If he has a major impact in the Stanley Cup Finals on a winning team then the trade is completely forgotten and is viewed as a win, in my opinion.

 

The Bickell deal was foolish, in my opinion. I think he got paid what he should have that offseason, but it shouldn't have been by Chicago. However, I do think there's value in showing that if you contribute to a winning team you're going to be taken care of. Players will look at Chicago's young core after the dust settles and be willing to take a chance on going there for less knowing that down the road they'll get paid if they do their job. On the other end of it he also made an strong decision in letting Niemi walk after winning a cup.

 

On Saad/Kruger: fun problem to have, eh? You plug in young players when you let go of guys like Ladd and Bolland before they're about to get paid silly money (so clearly Bowman is willing to move on from guys before they get overpaid). Arguing Kruger's upcoming contract also goes against what you said about Bickell's contract. At least Bickell can play between lines two through four. Kruger is a fourth liner, but you think they must pay him and it'll be enough to be worried about their cap situation otherwise? Not so sure that's fair.

 

Bowman has done a great job keeping this team afloat for years, and they've likely got another few years to get it done after this. He has benefited from it, but he's not riding Tallon's success.

[JJFIVEOH]

A lot of what you're saying it spot on, but I still don't think it points to him riding Tallon's coattails.

 

The Timmonen and Vermette trades this year may be due to what you're arguing: they know they may have to make some major cuts soon so they've got to go for it while it's still "easy." They overpaid on both, but they were risks worth taking. The team is where they are now despite those two moves, and Vermette has contributed since OT in game four of this series. If he has a major impact in the Stanley Cup Finals on a winning team then the trade is completely forgotten and is viewed as a win, in my opinion.

 

The Bickell deal was foolish, in my opinion. I think he got paid what he should have that offseason, but it shouldn't have been by Chicago. However, I do think there's value in showing that if you contribute to a winning team you're going to be taken care of. Players will look at Chicago's young core after the dust settles and be willing to take a chance on going there for less knowing that down the road they'll get paid if they do their job. On the other end of it he also made an strong decision in letting Niemi walk after winning a cup.

 

On Saad/Kruger: fun problem to have, eh? You plug in young players when you let go of guys like Ladd and Bolland before they're about to get paid silly money (so clearly Bowman is willing to move on from guys before they get overpaid). Arguing Kruger's upcoming contract also goes against what you said about Bickell's contract. At least Bickell can play between lines two through four. Kruger is a fourth liner, but you think they must pay him and it'll be enough to be worried about their cap situation otherwise? Not so sure that's fair.

 

Bowman has done a great job keeping this team afloat for years, and they've likely got another few years to get it done after this. He has benefited from it, but he's not riding Tallon's success.

Fair enough. I just don't think this team would be where it is now without Tallon. Although I do give Bowman some credit for getting them back in 2013, that was difficult after what he had to go through after their 2010 win. 

 

You're right, Bowman might have made some deals as a last ditch effort to push them over the top thinking they might have some bumps in the road for the next couple of years. But I can think of plenty of other options than Vermette and Timonen. But of course when you win a Cup, a lot is forgotten. I think if they win the Cup this year it won't be because of Timonen and Vermette (unless they drastically turn their game around). 

 

I didn't say they need to sign Kruger, I'm implying that they will sign Kruger. Along with Saad it will make dealing with the cap issues that much more difficult. 

 

I'll agree with you Bowman has done a good job keeping the team afloat. But do you think it's him specifically keeping the team afloat, or do you think it's the fact that Kane and Toews brings out the best in everybody? (Something Crosby and Malkin can't seem to do) It'll be interesting to see how Bowman handles this offseason. I don't think it will be as easy as 2011. 

[thewookie1]

The second conditional pick turns into a 2nd round pick if the Blackhawks make it to the Finals and Timonen plays in 50% of the games. He's played in 15 games so that takes care of the condition. I'll post the link later when I'm on my computer if you want, for some reason posting a link on my phone only results in this. this HTML class. Value is http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com. 

 

I'm not saying Bowman  hasn't had a hand in keeping this team together. He has, it's not easy keeping together a Cup team after losing all those players. What I was saying is that moving forward is going to be very difficult and they won't be as dominant after this year. There isn't a single team in the league with over 50% of their cap wrapped up in 5 players. I'm not big on Brad Richards.  Decent pickup?  Sure. He's not a difference maker though. If he's their 2nd center then Bowman will have to do something to address that in the off-season. He won't be able to do it after signing Saad and Kruger. 

I've supported my position pretty well actually. My position was the poor deadline trades and the pending cap issues. You responded to neither. 

 

Your link strangely sends me back to this page.

 

If I had to classify Bowman and Tallon I'd pretty much say that Tallon is a team builder and Bowman is more of a team maintainer. Tallon is doing wonders in Florida presently so I'd take a guess his forte is in crafting teams. 

[JJFIVEOH]

Your link strangely sends me back to this page.

 

If I had to classify Bowman and Tallon I'd pretty much say that Tallon is a team builder and Bowman is more of a team maintainer. Tallon is doing wonders in Florida presently so I'd take a guess his forte is in crafting teams. 

 

That's weird, all I did was C&P that link I was at on my phone. The same link I used in post 436. 

 

I agree with what you said. It'll be interesting to see how both these guys handle things going forward. 

[qwksndmonster]

So unsubstantiated and childish. And ugly.

 

Fart noises

[Cereal]

I ended up attending the Chicago@Anaheim Game 5 last Monday, so I thought I'd briefly share my experience.  (This is the game where Toews scored twice in the final 2:00 of the third to send to OT, then Beleskey scored off a Kesler rebound in the first minute of OT.)

 

The Honda Center is very nice.  Surrounded by parking lots, down the street from Disneyland.  Traffic was surprisingly efficient to and from the arena.  We arrived about 45 minutes early and got a good spot near a lot exit, with a quarter-mile walk to the nearest arena entrance.  Had a couple beers in the lot after we parked, but we saw no one else "tailgating".

 

We had seats in the last row of 401 (upper-est deck), behind Frederick Andersen's left post for the first and third period.  (Also saw the game's final three goals in our end!  Although I just realized that... yes, the first SIX goals of the game were in fact in the opposite end!)  Last row was nice; I stood for most of the action.

 

There were Blackhawks fans scattered everywhere.  My brother wore a PKane jersey and I wore a PKane t-shirt, so that made things fun.  They kept trying for a "Let's Go Hawks" chant that would quickly mutate into a "Let's Go Ducks" each time.  During one of the intermissions, there were at least 16 consecutive Hawks fans in line for the men's room.

 

The concourse after the third period was outstanding; Hawks fans were going nuts (understandably)!  I was hoping to get my money's worth and was ready for more than 45 seconds of overtime, but overall I am happy I went.

 

For what it's worth... I also attended with a Pens fan who recently transplanted to LA... he said that Kings regular season games are nuts, while Ducks regular season games can be pretty bland (as far as fan attendance and intensity).  Also for what it's worth, the game didn't sell out immediately.  I kinda just randomly checked on tickets a few weeks ago and noticed that it wasn't sold out, and scooped up tickets directly from the Ducks.  Although at the time of my purchase, the date of the game was unknown (Ducks had advanced to WCF, but their opponent was unknown).

[Eleven]

So unsubstantiated and childish. And ugly.

 

Fart noises

 

Fun fact of the day:  We call fart noises "raspberries" because of Cockney rhyming slang.

[MattPie]

I wonder how the Quakers would be marketed today.

 

Better question: did they sell beer at the games?