Roster review #25 Mikhail Grigorenko

[Taro T]

Good post. But I have to point out that the dominant position in this poll is top three centre next year so maybe the near-bust view isn't as dominant as we think.

Perhaps. Maybe it's a simple case of those seeing Grigo as a bust being so 'vocal.' Don't know I'd say the vote for top 3 C is 'dominant,' as it is well under 50% support. It is leading though, will give it that.

[LGR4GM]

I find it interesting how vastly differently people around here view the 2nd best C prospect from the draft 3 years ago (a draft viewed as typical for prospect quality) and the the top C prospect from last year's draft (a draft viewed as below average for prospect quality).

 

Neither guy was ready for the NHL in his draft year. The older guy was kept up too long before being sent back to juniors and burned a year off his contract; the younger guy was sent down after a look-see and didn't burn a year off his contract. Both played very well when in juniors after being drafted. Both were viewed as belonging in the AHL the year they were drafted.

 

That stated, 1 is getting penciled in as a bust/near bust after playing fairly well centering the default 2nd line after trades and injuries forced his (since fired) coach to play him there; and the other is getting penciled in as the 2nd line C from day 1 of his 2nd pro-eligible year.

 

Realizing these sentiments aren't universal, but they do seem to be dominant.

Yup. 

[shrader]

I find it interesting how vastly differently people around here view the 2nd best C prospect from the draft 3 years ago (a draft viewed as typical for prospect quality) and the the top C prospect from last year's draft (a draft viewed as below average for prospect quality).

 

 

Was that one really viewed as a typical draft for prospect quality?  I know it was one of those absurdly deep in D drafts, but next to nothing was said about the forwards.  Looking back at that one even right now, it's tough to really focus on the forward talent.  Picks 4-10 were all defensemen (and #2 as well), what a crazy draft.  13 defensemen and 2 goalies in the first round, crazy.

 

I'm right on board with your assessment of Grigorenko though, I just couldn't help but comment on that draft.  That one already seems to be a mostly forgotten draft, especially given the others in recent years.

[LGR4GM]

Was that one really viewed as a typical draft for prospect quality?  I know it was one of those absurdly deep in D drafts, but next to nothing was said about the forwards.  Looking back at that one even right now, it's tough to really focus on the forward talent.  Picks 4-10 were all defensemen (and #2 as well), what a crazy draft.  13 defensemen and 2 goalies in the first round, crazy.

 

I'm right on board with your assessment of Grigorenko though, I just couldn't help but comment on that draft.  That one already seems to be a mostly forgotten draft, especially given the others in recent years.

Yea, that first round was quite strange. 

[Huckleberry]

I might be the only, well pretty sure i am but i still believe given time we'll get more out of Grigorenko then out of Girgensons.

Worst case scenario they make up a hell of 3rd line together with Foligno.

[Doohicksie]

Perhaps. Maybe it's a simple case of those seeing Grigo as a bust being so 'vocal.' Don't know I'd say the vote for top 3 C is 'dominant,' as it is well under 50% support. It is leading though, will give it that.

 

I think it was a case of more sympathy for the bust viewpoint prior to his late-season performance.  I think many simply hadn't seen Grigo perform at an NHL level prior to that, so they (myself included) tended to go along with those who cried bust.

I might be the only, well pretty sure i am but i still believe given time we'll get more out of Grigorenko then out of Girgensons.

Worst case scenario they make up a hell of 3rd line together with Foligno.

 

I wouldn't mind that at all.

[LGR4GM]

I might be the only, well pretty sure i am but i still believe given time we'll get more out of Grigorenko then out of Girgensons.

Worst case scenario they make up a hell of 3rd line together with Foligno.

Mikhail has better hands and a better shot than Zemgus. 

[Taro T]

Was that one really viewed as a typical draft for prospect quality?  I know it was one of those absurdly deep in D drafts, but next to nothing was said about the forwards.  Looking back at that one even right now, it's tough to really focus on the forward talent.  Picks 4-10 were all defensemen (and #2 as well), what a crazy draft.  13 defensemen and 2 goalies in the first round, crazy.

 

I'm right on board with your assessment of Grigorenko though, I just couldn't help but comment on that draft.  That one already seems to be a mostly forgotten draft, especially given the others in recent years.

Through most of the season, that draft was looked at as 1 - Yakupov, 2 - Galchenyuk, & 3 - Grigorenko; which isn't out of the ordinary. Don't recall much pre-draft raving/panning the talent; though 'Fail for Nail' was the phrase. Don't recall why Galchenyuk fell to 3rd other than it becoming 'the year of the D.' Grigs stock dropped w/ the mono & IIRC a poor playoff.

[Huckleberry]

Through most of the season, that draft was looked at as 1 - Yakupov, 2 - Galchenyuk, & 3 - Grigorenko; which isn't out of the ordinary. Don't recall much pre-draft raving/panning the talent; though 'Fail for Nail' was the phrase. Don't recall why Galchenyuk fell to 3rd other than it becoming 'the year of the D.' Grigs stock dropped w/ the mono & IIRC a poor playoff.

 

Think he had a knee injury as well.  Either way i couldn't believe he fell down that much and was very happy about it.

 

I also think expectations were high for this kid, sometimes to high, and he had the bust label upon him to fast.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Heimdall

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I don't think that Grigorenko will be traded and I hope he isn't.

 

He is really starting to become the very good third line centre who can fill in very nicely on the second line if need be.  I saw this potential when he was playing in the Q ... watched him many times when playing against the Mooseheads.

 

Anyway, I think he will develop into a player comparable to Andre Savard, for those old enough to remember him.  Perhaps, our Datsyuk.

[Doohicksie]

Perhaps, our Datsyuk.

 

I see him as more of a Zetterberg...

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I see him as more of a Zetterberg...

 

That was also my thought, but went with Pavel due to the Soviet era theme that seems to be still kicking around here.

[nfreeman]

Perhaps, our Datsyuk.

 

I see him as more of a Zetterberg...

 

That Nova Scotia/Texas hybrid cannabis must be quite potent.

[woods-racer]

Day trippin...

[Doohicksie]

That was also my thought, but went with Pavel due to the Soviet era theme that seems to be still kicking around here.

 

That's only because I can't change my Screen Name for another couple weeks....

[Sabres Fan in NS]

That Nova Scotia/Texas hybrid cannabis must be quite potent.

 

:w00t:

 

I see you still have no love for Russian hockey players.  Well, perhaps a certain Sabre.

[Doohicksie]

That Nova Scotia/Texas hybrid cannabis must be quite potent.

 

Meh.  Datsyuk and Zetty were both late round picks.  They're both 20-25 goal per year guys.  Is it so much to think that Grigo's ceiling is in that area?  I don't think so.  I wouldn't even fully count Grigo's production to date since the team has been a tire fire since he's been around.  If the team is functional next year he might surprise some folks.

[Kruppstahl]

I think the "Murray wants a big, heavy team" idea gets too much play. He drafted Reinhart over Draisaitl (who is bigger) and Bennett (who is more physical). He signed Ennis to a long-term contract rather than seeking a trade, and at least publicly, he praised the season he had. It's certainly a factor in the decision making, but I see too many people assuming Grigorenko is going to be traded seemingly only because he doesn't look/play like David Backes.

In short, Grigorenko needs to bring more to the table than he actually does.

 

When asked about Reinhart, Tim Murray said: "Let's put it this way.  Every single time I have seen him play, he is the smartest player on the ice by far."

 

Reinhart is also the more or less universally accepted best forward in his draft class.  

 

Grigorenko will have to prove to me that he is anything more than "meh".

 

Until he does, I remain bored with him as a Sabre prospect.

[SabresFanInRochester]

In short, Grigorenko needs to bring more to the table than he actually does.

 

When asked about Reinhart, Tim Murray said: "Let's put it this way.  Every single time I have seen him play, he is the smartest player on the ice by far."

 

Reinhart is also the more or less universally accepted best forward in his draft class.  

 

Grigorenko will have to prove to me that he is anything more than "meh".

 

Until he does, I remain bored with him as a Sabre prospect.

This is one thing that bothers me in sports. I remember Jim Kelly had naysayers and detractors. Every year, this portion of the population hated him and frankly, thought he sucked. Even through the Super Bowl years. And maybe even into Canton. Some people get that mindset and there is nothing that can overturn it. Maybe there is too much pride for people to admit when they're wrong.

 

I would rather take the opposite approach -- give someone the benefit of the doubt until they are verified hopeless. Not that my approach is right, but is a little more optimistic way to go through life.

 

And I can admit when I am wrong -- I used my approach when Leino came to Buffalo. When I finally turned on him, I was very vocal and critical of his lack of performance. But at the end of the day, does the skeptic who hated from Leino from day one a better or smarter person?

 

You can wake up every day and say it's going to rain and eventually you'll be right. I would rather wake up thinking it's going to be a beautiful sunny day today. As long as I don't live in a tropical rain forest, that's my perspective.

[X. Benedict]

Just a small point.   With Reinhart and Eichel both being Righties.

It is nice that Grigo is a lefty. 

[LGR4GM]

Just a small point.   With Reinhart and Eichel both being Righties.

It is nice that Grigo is a lefty. 

Yup some of those key draws you are going to want a LH center to take them. Also might want a lefty to make the line combo's work better, Grigorenko is still valuable to us. 

Edited May 6, 2015 by LGR4GM

[X. Benedict]

 

 

Until he does, I remain bored with him as a Sabre prospect.

That's too bad. The real shame is that he didn't have two full seasons getting ripe in the AHL. 

i was hardly bored with his last two weeks with the Sabres.  His line was getting  between 8-12 shots a game at times.  

[nfreeman]

Meh.  Datsyuk and Zetty were both late round picks.  They're both 20-25 goal per year guys.  Is it so much to think that Grigo's ceiling is in that area?  I don't think so.  I wouldn't even fully count Grigo's production to date since the team has been a tire fire since he's been around.  If the team is functional next year he might surprise some folks.

 

20-25 goals is not a whacked-out theory for Griggy's ceiling.  But Datsyuk and Zetterberg are both absolute locks for the HOF.  It is insane to mention their names in a "Grigorenko reminds me of..." conversation.

 

This is one thing that bothers me in sports. I remember Jim Kelly had naysayers and detractors. Every year, this portion of the population hated him and frankly, thought he sucked. Even through the Super Bowl years. And maybe even into Canton. Some people get that mindset and there is nothing that can overturn it. Maybe there is too much pride for people to admit when they're wrong.

 

I would rather take the opposite approach -- give someone the benefit of the doubt until they are verified hopeless. Not that my approach is right, but is a little more optimistic way to go through life.

 

And I can admit when I am wrong -- I used my approach when Leino came to Buffalo. When I finally turned on him, I was very vocal and critical of his lack of performance. But at the end of the day, does the skeptic who hated from Leino from day one a better or smarter person?

 

You can wake up every day and say it's going to rain and eventually you'll be right. I would rather wake up thinking it's going to be a beautiful sunny day today. As long as I don't live in a tropical rain forest, that's my perspective.

 

I too prefer the optimistic approach, and I have not given up on Griggy.  I just think it sounds crazy to start comparing him to HOFers.

[SabresFanInRochester]

20-25 goals is not a whacked-out theory for Griggy's ceiling.  But Datsyuk and Zetterberg are both absolute locks for the HOF.  It is insane to mention their names in a "Grigorenko reminds me of..." conversation.

 

 

I too prefer the optimistic approach, and I have not given up on Griggy.  I just think it sounds crazy to start comparing him to HOFers.

Not sure if that was pointed to me. I was using Kelly as an example of how some members of a fanbase will always hate a player, regardless of the success in their career. It is too early to determine if Grigorenko will be a solid NHL player, but I would rather give him the benefit of the doubt and watch him mature, than call him a bust and ride him out of town.

 

I really like what Grigorenko showed over the final couple weeks of the season. IMO, he surpassed Larsson, but since it is such a small sample, and other factors -- like linemates -- come into play, I want to see it play out. In determining would I rather see Grigo or Larsson, I think Grigo has more upside, but either would suffice as a serviceable center (3rd or 4th line.) I would love to see them challenge for 2nd line center, but if the roster depth chart places them on the 3rd line, I am thrilled with the development of the team. I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping both, but if a deal must be made to bring in a key component, than I would prefer to keep Grigo over Larsson. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Hey Rochester,

 

I am pretty sure nfreeman was commenting on my comments and the comments by that Ukrainian dude from Texas.

 

Apparently he (the Ukrainian Texan) and I have a real potent weed mix.  

 

I know nfreeman was joking, otherwise I'd be really be offended by that remark.  Not sure about the Ukrainian Texan on that one.