Jeanbe Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 There's been some comments in the "making SS friendlier" thread about things like this. Just because two posters are having a well-mannered discussion (wouldn't even call this a debate because D4rk is just asking good questions that I'm attempting to respond to) doesn't mean it's a "bitch fight." People can have heated discussions on a subject without it being a fight... Oh vey!
I am Defecting Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 The slaves comment might have been dramatic, but the animal abuse is obvious and real. Please get on point. The studs going to have an enviable life. You should read The Biology of Desire. If anything, a horses existence is parasitic. Do you have any idea how expensive they are and generally how well treated, outside of the stories you read, WHERE PEOPLE ARE ARRESTED?
I am Defecting Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 The crying at horses, Ghost, I have that too. I call it the Secretariat Effect. We, Hoss, are at their mercy. Even a crap family horse usually has servants waiting on it, tending to its every need. If only we were so lucky.
Dave Dryden Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 This question would be more suited for somebody far more knowledgeable on horses and animals in general, but my first thought is to say that plenty of animals live with no human purpose. Plenty of them go extinct and plenty of them don't. I'm not sure which way horses would go if not for sporting use. As far as the animal kingdom goes I think humans should leave it alone as much as possible. When we have the resources to easily preserve an animal's existence without changing the way they live too drastically then I think we should do it... Otherwise we should let them live as they do as much as possible. When human in life is in danger then I'm okay with measures being taken to prevent harm, but that's about it. (This isn't a statement about hunting, I won't discuss hunting because I haven't really developed much of an opinion either way as far as hunting for food goes) If you would spend some time around race horses, I think you would feel differently. They get tremendous care and are loved by their trainers and owners for the most part. And they love to run and race. That is what they have been bred to do. I have a two year old named Ice On the Severn, who is such a class act and is one of the happiest animals I know, particularly when he gets to go out with other horses. To be sure, there are abuses, but there is in everything in life. Do you think the NFL is completely humane? I'd much rather be a racehorse than an NFL player in terms of long term quality of life. I mean after next year, all American Pharoah will have to do for 20 plus years is have sex with 120 different mares each year. He will not have any long term concussive issues or commit suicide. What American Pharoah did yesterday was magnificent. It is a time to celebrate a truly remarkable athlete, not get bogged down in throwing out the good in a fruitless effort of trying to make the world a perfect place.
GoPre Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 If you would spend some time around race horses, I think you would feel differently. They get tremendous care and are loved by their trainers and owners for the most part. And they love to run and race. That is what they have been bred to do. I have a two year old named Ice On the Severn, who is such a class act and is one of the happiest animals I know, particularly when he gets to go out with other horses. To be sure, there are abuses, but there is in everything in life. Do you think the NFL is completely humane? I'd much rather be a racehorse than an NFL player in terms of long term quality of life. I mean after next year, all American Pharoah will have to do for 20 plus years is have sex with 120 different mares each year. He will not have any long term concussive issues or commit suicide. What American Pharoah did yesterday was magnificent. It is a time to celebrate a truly remarkable athlete, not get bogged down in throwing out the good in a fruitless effort of trying to make the world a perfect place. Great post. +1 :thumbsup:
Hoss Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 If you would spend some time around race horses, I think you would feel differently. They get tremendous care and are loved by their trainers and owners for the most part. And they love to run and race. That is what they have been bred to do. I have a two year old named Ice On the Severn, who is such a class act and is one of the happiest animals I know, particularly when he gets to go out with other horses. To be sure, there are abuses, but there is in everything in life. Do you think the NFL is completely humane? I'd much rather be a racehorse than an NFL player in terms of long term quality of life. I mean after next year, all American Pharoah will have to do for 20 plus years is have sex with 120 different mares each year. He will not have any long term concussive issues or commit suicide. What American Pharoah did yesterday was magnificent. It is a time to celebrate a truly remarkable athlete, not get bogged down in throwing out the good in a fruitless effort of trying to make the world a perfect place. Couple things... 1. The argument that it's what they're bred to do is irrelevant in my opinion because that's still a purely human thing. The horses didn't make the choice to breed purely for racing. 2. Any comparison to professional human sports is also irrelevant. Those are humans making human decisions for millions of dollars. There should be further safety measures but that's a completely different subject for a far away thread. Overbreeding winning horses has long been one of the issues that people have with horse racing, as well, so I'm not sure he'll really enjoy 120 partners a year. These animals are risking their lives so rich white people can stand around and blow their kids' futures. The second they have a serious leg injury it's game over. The sacrifices are often and too large to justify it by assuming that humans giving them a purpose makes their lives better. This is my opinion on the matter. I do not believe animal sports should be supported or legal. I know plenty of people who own horses and do nothing but feed them, clean them and allow them to roam freely in very large amounts of land.
josie Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 I think it's a tricky subject, animal sports. Horses are a fascinating razors edge of reason- they're not that dissimilar from cattle, yet the taboo of consuming them exists. Hey are companion animals. Racehorses serve a purpose beyond a family's love. As did the family plow horse before tractors took over agriculture. Because of this, they become property. Because they are property, some unfortunately lose the protection the beloved family pet might have, and experience depersonalize abuse. I volunteer at a rescue, will save 30 year old horses from deaths door, yet support a zoo's decision to feed horse meat to their predators. I guarantee at least some of that meat came from a kill pen stocked with healthy ex racers, tossed because they weren't winners. Any time you have an elite level like Belmont and the like, you get shady lower tiers. People aren't in it for the right reason. Others absolutely are. Do TBs live to race? Well, I guess you could consider the domesticity of horses and the breeds that proliferated from the prehistoric forms (check out Prezwalsky's horse- Mongolian. Closest to origin that exists today). And how each culture has dealt with them. I'd argue there's a lot of respect and wonderful treatment in racing. I'd argue that when horses were more machinery, abuse was more rampant. Perhaps not linked. I have a horse care manual d4rk found me from 1877 that is downright barbaric by today's standards. The rescues I get are usually neglected pets, Amish chattel, and nearly wild hopeless cases. A few racers, for sure. Mostly the neglect and abuse happens after the track- the owners sell them dirt cheap to flip a buck and don't care where they go. Then again, look what we do to cattle and chickens. I still eat meat, knowing about the horrific goings ons. Ending racing would result in some horrific purges and some other less regulated form of entertainment. I'm no fan of racing overall, but at least it gets policed to some degree. Sorry for the book, I like me some horses but know the realities.
Hoss Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 Thanks for the post, Josie. Once D4rk said what he said I was hoping you would chime in. To your last point: upon ending anything that has a culture surrounding it there sure will be some growing pains through the process of ending it, but time would help the adjustment phase. Horse racing is probably the lowest on the totem poll of animal sports that should end, but I just think ending them all is the right move regardless. We'll never be able to end shady dog or fighting, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't end the entertainment-driven animal sports on a professional level. It's a ways off if it ever happens, but the conversation is louder now than it ever has been.
josie Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 Thanks for the post, Josie. Once D4rk said what he said I was hoping you would chime in. To your last point: upon ending anything that has a culture surrounding it there sure will be some growing pains through the process of ending it, but time would help the adjustment phase. Horse racing is probably the lowest on the totem poll of animal sports that should end, but I just think ending them all is the right move regardless. We'll never be able to end shady dog or ###### fighting, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't end the entertainment-driven animal sports on a professional level. It's a ways off if it ever happens, but the conversation is louder now than it ever has been. I'm glad you mentioned dogs. I know next to nothing about dog racing- but I know a lot of people with ex racer rescued greyhounds. Fighting to me is a line- 100% against it. This isn't Henry VIII's bear baiting court era. You've got a valid opinion. I waffle back and forth on it, personally. It's a huge ethics situation. I tend to lean towards the disposition argument. I find some of these horses just love the racing. Much like some human athletes. Thing is, we don't control breeding rights in humans! With the entertainment idea in mind - what are your feelings on show horses/dressage/riding stables/breaking wild horses? I've seen a lot of horrors come from those origins as well. I'm aware of groups that even consider pets as an abomination of animals rights. It's a pretty wide spectrum. For whatever it's worth, I don't ride much. I just work with the broken ones haha
josie Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 Another point I'll make- racing in and of itself could be better regulated- the humans involved better educated. Spread the joy of horses and good trainers, minimize the cruelty. In New York animal abuse will soon be a felony. Will the Finger Lakes track improve as a result? Guess we'll see. I've been privy to a lot of court battles and seizures over horse neglect and there's not a ton to be done now. As a kid I was captured by the fame of standouts like Man O War (only 6 year old to ever draw a long dead racehorse on her placemats at a restaurant) and Secretariat. The sports legends of their kind. Went to the Kentucky Horse Park for my 7th bday and just stared in awe at the well pampered retired racers, glowing as if their groomers curried them with 100 dollar bills. I guess it's a question of, does the bad/nefarious outweigh the good?
Hoss Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 Some great insight here, Josie. On the riding/show horses: I'm not quite sure how I feel on that just yet. I don't consider it a sport, and I'm not that knowledgable on the process that takes a horse/dog from any other baby to show material. I would imagine there's some extensive and, at times, grueling trials that each animal is put through to become so "perfect" as the trainer hope. I also imagine that, as humans go, anytime they're hours and hours of training turned into a failing dog they wouldn't take it lightly.
Dave Dryden Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 Couple things... 1. The argument that it's what they're bred to do is irrelevant in my opinion because that's still a purely human thing. The horses didn't make the choice to breed purely for racing. 2. Any comparison to professional human sports is also irrelevant. Those are humans making human decisions for millions of dollars. There should be further safety measures but that's a completely different subject for a far away thread. Overbreeding winning horses has long been one of the issues that people have with horse racing, as well, so I'm not sure he'll really enjoy 120 partners a year. These animals are risking their lives so rich white people can stand around and blow their kids' futures. The second they have a serious leg injury it's game over. The sacrifices are often and too large to justify it by assuming that humans giving them a purpose makes their lives better. This is my opinion on the matter. I do not believe animal sports should be supported or legal. I know plenty of people who own horses and do nothing but feed them, clean them and allow them to roam freely in very large amounts of land. It's difficult to address all your misperceptions. There would be no thoroughbred horses without humans. They are not running around in nature. So I don't get your point-- they would not be around but for humans. To be sure there are some wild horses, but those largely escaped from human breeding as well. The stuff about rich white people blowing their kids future is the worst kind of stereotyping. Horses are not overbred-- particularly high quality horses. Dogs yes, horses no. And I still have my 2 y/o's great grandmother-- she's 29. She has not raced in over 20 years, but she lives life as a pensioner on a beautiful farm in Maryland. When her career was over we took care of her, it was not "game over" as you suggest. She has been a happy camper for years, after having 6 foals. I respect your concern about animals, I really do. But if you look how we raise our food, it is way worse than anything going on with horses. And if there was no racing, the breed would simply die out. I don't think-- as you suggest-- you really understand the horse industry. I love dogs and horses, I'm not out to hurt them but to take care of them.
Hoss Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 It's difficult to address all your misperceptions. There would be no thoroughbred horses without humans. They are not running around in nature. So I don't get your point-- they would not be around but for humans. To be sure there are some wild horses, but those largely escaped from human breeding as well. The stuff about rich white people blowing their kids future is the worst kind of stereotyping. Horses are not overbred-- particularly high quality horses. Dogs yes, horses no. And I still have my 2 y/o's great grandmother-- she's 29. She has not raced in over 20 years, but she lives life as a pensioner on a beautiful farm in Maryland. When her career was over we took care of her, it was not "game over" as you suggest. She has been a happy camper for years, after having 6 foals. I respect your concern about animals, I really do. But if you look how we raise our food, it is way worse than anything going on with horses. And if there was no racing, the breed would simply die out. I don't think-- as you suggest-- you really understand the horse industry. I love dogs and horses, I'm not out to hurt them but to take care of them. Your experiences are the good side of it, but there's an ugly side and culture in all major animal sports. If everybody cared for the animals as much as you do then it wouldn't be as much of an issue. And there's absolutely no way to get everybody at your level. It will never happen or even come close to it... As far as the food reference - irrelevant to this conversation. That's an entirely different subject (one that I have similar thoughts on despite being a meat eater). Regulations there should be far more thorough than they are... But that's not what I am discussing right now.
Dave Dryden Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 Your experiences are the good side of it, but there's an ugly side and culture in all major animal sports. If everybody cared for the animals as much as you do then it wouldn't be as much of an issue. And there's absolutely no way to get everybody at your level. It will never happen or even come close to it... As far as the food reference - irrelevant to this conversation. That's an entirely different subject (one that I have similar thoughts on despite being a meat eater). Regulations there should be far more thorough than they are... But that's not what I am discussing right now. My level is closer to the norm than you think. There are abuses in all walks of life, which is wrong and typically illegal. I'm not sure what other animal sports you have in mind that are legal. There is some dog racing, but that has been mostly eliminated. What are you referring to?
Taro T Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 My level is closer to the norm than you think. There are abuses in all walks of life, which is wrong and typically illegal. I'm not sure what other animal sports you have in mind that are legal. There is some dog racing, but that has been mostly eliminated. What are you referring to? Not to speak for Hoss, but I'm pretty sure he's referring to bullfighting, cockfighting, and jellyfish dodgeball. Them stingers can hurt.
Dave Dryden Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 (edited) Not to speak for Hoss, but I'm pretty sure he's referring to bullfighting, cockfighting, and jellyfish dodgeball. Them stingers can hurt. Well that stuff is and should be illegal. To compare illegal sports where the object is to have animals hurt or kill each other to horse racing is absurd IMO. Bullfighting seems absurd to me. What about hunting-- I don't care for it but will we outlaw that too? Edited June 7, 2015 by Dave Dryden
Hoss Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 Well that stuff is and should be illegal. To compare illegal sports where the object is to have animals hurt or kill each other to horse racing is absurd IMO. Horse racing and bull sports (riding, running, etc.).
Dave Dryden Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 Horse racing and bull sports (riding, running, etc.). I know nothing about bull sports.
Hoss Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 I know nothing about bull sports. They're bulls!t
X. Benedict Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 Not to speak for Hoss, but I'm pretty sure he's referring to bullfighting, cockfighting, and jellyfish dodgeball. Them stingers can hurt. If you can dodge a ball you can dodge a projectile invertebrate.
Taro T Posted June 7, 2015 Report Posted June 7, 2015 If you can dodge a ball you can dodge a projectile invertebrate. You would think. But it can be harder than it sounds. Put the right spin on and those tentacles can seem to come out of nowhere.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 8, 2015 Report Posted June 8, 2015 Animal abuse. There's extensive abuse involved in every major (and non-major, for that matter) animal sport. Plus they're just slaves to our entertainment. You are right....and sadly, I admit to being an animal abuser. I have done cruel things to horses. You see, a lot of times the night before a race, a horse senses all the cues that the race is the next day. He may only walk the shedrow or go for an easy jog or gallop, the vet goes over him head to toe and doublechecks previous issue areas, the groom starts icing his legs down in the bucket and more the next day to make sure there is absolutely no heat coming from them, some grooms spend an hour braiding their horse's hair, etc. When some horses see all this happening, they get excited knowing next day is gameday. They get overplayful, excited, pretty much like a football player the night before a game. While seeing that energy is great, you don't want to run your race in the barn, so sometimes you have to go to extraordinary measures to get them to sleep and rest up. I am an animal abuser. The night before the race, we show the horses this video....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsJDBEkmvhY
Weave Posted June 8, 2015 Report Posted June 8, 2015 OK, that was pretty damned funny. You mention how excited the horses get. My frame of reference is hunting dogs and farm dogs. I can play fetch and throw a dummy all day long. They enjoy it but, put a lab in a goose blind and they can't contain the excitement as the sun comes up. They whine, they fidget, they drool. You won't get that kind of reaction in the yard. It is bred into them. Don't give a herding dog a herding job and they bite ankles and have destructive habits. An animal needs to do what it was bred to do.
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