what would you consider the rebuild a success

[shrader]

Here's the thing about having a team that wins a championship.  Sure it's great at first, but that wears off eventually and you are right back to where you were before, wanting to win a championship.  Sports fans are always going to have the "what have you done for me lately" mentality.  Without it, there's no sense in watching.  If you are one of those people who says you'd be happy with winning one cup and then having a life time of mediocrity, would you stop watching the day after winning that cup?  Of course not, you'll stick around and hope for the next one.

[TrueBlueGED]

Here's the thing about having a team that wins a championship. Sure it's great at first, but that wears off eventually and you are right back to where you were before, wanting to win a championship. Sports fans are always going to have the "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Without it, there's no sense in watching. If you are one of those people who says you'd be happy with winning one cup and then having a life time of mediocrity, would you stop watching the day after winning that cup? Of course not, you'll stick around and hope for the next one.

Would you like to cuddle?

[shrader]

Would you like to cuddle?

 

Where were you last week after that BU game?

[Drunkard]

Here's the thing about having a team that wins a championship.  Sure it's great at first, but that wears off eventually and you are right back to where you were before, wanting to win a championship.  Sports fans are always going to have the "what have you done for me lately" mentality.  Without it, there's no sense in watching.  If you are one of those people who says you'd be happy with winning one cup and then having a life time of mediocrity, would you stop watching the day after winning that cup?  Of course not, you'll stick around and hope for the next one.

Of course you'll always want to see your team win another one but 1 will always be infinitely better than zero. I'm sure the long time Chicago baseball fans who root for the White Sox and much more satisfied than the ones who root for the Cubs and that single World Series Championship is the biggest difference, even if it was 10 years ago.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Drunkard

[shrader]

Of course you'll always want to see your team win another one but 1 will always be infinitely better than zero. I'm sure the long time Chicago baseball fans who root for the White Sox and much more satisfied than the ones who root for the Cubs and that single World Series Championship is the biggest difference, even if it was 10 years ago.

 

Whatever helps them sleep at night.  But ultimately, they're not happy with their team when they don't win it this year.

[qwksndmonster]

I think the desire for championships is way overblown on here because we're Buffalo.  I'm with Blue and shrader.

[Neo]

From my perspective: The tank was successful, regardless of your taste for it. The rebuild will be if we contend in two seasons and sustain that for seven or eight more. Cups require good fortune. Here's to good fortune.

[That Aud Smell]

You can only hope to have a roster that can contend. Winning the thing takes a lot of good fortune. There's no controlling for that.

 

Exactly. It's hubris* to say "build us a Cup winner!"

 

You can build a contender. Once you have that in place for a season, you need to hope and pray that things fall your way.

 

*Maybe not hubris. But it shows a certain lack of humility toward what can come from a cruel and uncertain universe.

Not really "hubris" to ask for this though, innit?  More like unrealistic, sense-of-entitlement expectations? 

 

(This post has been brought to you by those demanding more mod involvement.)

 

I hear you. There is something about hubris that works there, though. Remember, hubris for the ancient Greeks was essentially a defiance of the gods. My meaning here is that people who think you can build a Cup winner have a lack of due regard for "the gods," or, as I would understand them, the vagaries and uncertainties spawned by an arbitrary universe where randomness affects outcomes, especially when you're down to the short strokes (or an OT in game 7). 

 

And for those who say they'll be upset if this process doesn't result in a Cup, I say:

 

 

(Not because this won't result in a Cup, but because pinning everything on an outcome that cannot be guaranteed is a fool's gambit. We're headed for better times, fun times -- that is enough for me.)

From my perspective: The tank was successful, regardless of your taste for it. The rebuild will be if we contend in two seasons and sustain that for seven or eight more. Cups require good fortune. Here's to good fortune.

 

Oh, I will drink to that, sir.

[Samson's Flow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Congratulations Boyes.

 

First time?

[LastPommerFan]

I hear you. There is something about hubris that works there, though. Remember, hubris for the ancient Greeks was essentially a defiance of the gods. My meaning here is that people who think you can build a Cup winner have a lack of due regard for "the gods," or, as I would understand them, the vagaries and uncertainties spawned by an arbitrary universe where randomness affects outcomes, especially when you're down to the short strokes (or an OT in game 7). 

 

And for those who say they'll be upset if this process doesn't result in a Cup, I say:

 

 

(Not because this won't result in a Cup, but because pinning everything on an outcome that cannot be guaranteed is a fool's gambit. We're headed for better times, fun times -- that is enough for me.)

 

Oh, I will drink to that, sir.

 

Woah, Upset? No I won't be upset.

 

I will simply judge it as a failure. I'll still enjoy all the sportsing along the way.

 

Success and Failure are measured against goals. The goal is to win the cup. That's always the goal. 

 

Enjoyment is a much more ethereal thing. 

 

I've even enjoyed this year (Particularly the emergence of Lord Zemgus.)

[WildCard]

I think the desire for championships is way overblown on here because we're Buffalo.  I'm with Blue and shrader.

If I get your drift, that we're tempering our expectations because we've never one a Cup, then I agree. 

 

There are cities that win, and have won championships, that expect to win more of them. They don't think "well at least it will be fun to watch" and downplay the significance of failure because they're so used to it.Throughout this tank-war all we've been pointing to for reasons of the tank are how bad it is to be a false competitor, and how other tank jobs/drafting high has worked because they won championships. Does anyone here really think we'd have tanked if Pitt, Chicago, LA, etc. didn't win any championships? No way, we'd have said, "That's not how you win Cups, look at teams A,B, and C." But they did win Cups, and gave a model to follow. 

 

Anything short of winning a Cup would be a failure IMO. We could have rebuilt the team in a different way, but many thought that wouldn't bring Cups, so they only distinction between the severity of a rebuild and that of a tank is their extremes, and the latter brings with it extreme losing followed by (we hope) a Cup. 

 

Edit: Nope, reread your quote QWK, I don't agree. I get that all we want is at least one Cup, but even if you pulled this tank job in Montreal or NY, anything short of a Cup wouldn't be met with "eh it was fun to watch", it would be met with everyone being fired and a ###### storm of unparalleled proportions, because they have a higher expectation than we do. We should expect to win a Cup after these last two seasons. 

Edited April 17, 2015 by WildCard

[Claude_Verret]

I think getting a series of high picks is the best way to assemble a Cup contender and to ensure competitiveness for an extended period of time because those high picks are more likely to end up as the elite players necessary to achieve those goals. I will readily acknowledge how awful a few years of last place are to endure and also recognize the risk that if the plan doesn't work, it will result in an extended period of near unwatchable hockey. I willingly accept that risk because of the upside and that consistent 8-12th place finishes are, to me, just as bad as the worst case scenario of tanking. I do not expect everyone to have that same calculus; in fact, I suspect the range of unsatisfactory hockey is wider for me than for many others here.

 

Hope that clarifies where I stand on it all.

Perfect sense. Certainly not everyone will agree, but I do 100%.

[That Aud Smell]

I thought I answered it fairly thoroughly. Where is Judge Smell when you need him?

Overruled!

[LGR4GM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o

 

My buddy sends this to me every time he gets some when he's single.  

[smj]

I don't care about next year.  If it takes another year to get turned around with these young guys I am fine with another very high draft pick to help with the long-term future.  If we surprise and make the playoffs or come close that would be fun.  However, by 2016-2017 I would like to see the core in place and showing enough to make the playoffs.  I would like to see us seriously challenge to go deep in the playoffs for several years after that and become a consistent winner.  That would be my definition of success.  Of course, I'd love to win the cup since the Sabres have done everything else as a franchise.

[Taro T]

 

I wouldn't say so.  I think that demand just means that a significant portion of the fan base has bought into the "we need to be at the top of the draft if we want to eventually win the cup" theory.  I don't agree with that theory, but it's hardly from outer space.

Hold in one second. There are several people that got on board w/ the tank w/out believing it had to happen for the Sabres to get to the top. AFTER Darcy came up w/ suffering as a mantra; there were a bunch of us that wanted to see them end up in last rather than 24-26th. Management decided to tank; once they decided to do that, they had to actually do it. Otherwise, they're the ####ing Loafs.

 

If we're expected to pay for a bad show; it had better be a down payment on a good one.

[Rogue Sabre]

The Blackhawks, I wanna be the Blackhawks. That is a success. With Sam/mceichel we have our towes/Kane. And they have been a continuous contender. Apologies if this has already been brought up, but I just had to answer the question.

[grinreaper]

If the only success criteria is a Cup, then then entire history of the franchise is one colossal failure.

Did you lose weight?

[grinreaper]

3rd base is better than cuddling, don't judge me!

 

Maybe some married folk can interject here, but I don't think having sex one time makes a subsequent sexless decade any more tolerable.

Ah, but the memories! 

[Kristian]

I have to say, at this point, I'll take almost whatever - The worst part of this for me, were the years from 2008 and until Darcy was finally canned.

 

I'd been very doubtful that Darcy knew how to build a balanced hockey team since 2003, in 2008 it became painfully clear to me.

 

The remaining years were pure futility, even though we took the Flyers to 7 games in a first round defeat.

 

The team consisted of good goaltending, smallish, soft, skill players, or useless plugs. No in-between players, and it was quite clear that this was how Darcy thought a hockey team should look.

 

He then finally realised his fabled "core" would never get anything done, and decided to blow it all up and start over, seemingly having no clue why his beloved "core" failed.

Darcy would've done the exact same thing all over again - Our smallish skill players might have been better, given our high drafts after the tank, but rest assured - Darcy would've made the exact same mistakes as he did with the "core" team, had he still been around.

 

Thankfully, he's not - Hence, I'm happy with whatever we get next season, just because I know it's a step in a different direction than what've seen since 2000.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Kristian

[Thorner]

The notion on it not being worth it if we don't get a cup seems to be hinged on us going through two all time terrible 52-54 point seasons.  I guess that I'll never understand how being 20 points better, "suffering" a little less and still not winning a cup somehow changes the needle from complete failure to acceptable.

 

I agree, and personally I can't understand that either. Yes, these last 2 years were bad. But had they not "tanked", how much better could we have reasonably been? We still would have been a bad team, just not this bad. I hope to become a contending team because we undertook a rebuild. The barometer for me on what success or failure is remains the same regardless of the, as you say, 20 point difference.

 

I just don't agree with this. Frequent entertainment and the thrill of the chase are very important parts of the sports experience, and a championship or bust mentality trivializes them.

 

Not even remotely, because I think tanking gives the best chance for an extended period of entertainment. I don't find regular 10th place finishes especially compelling. But regular playoff runs into the second round and beyond? Sign me up--if you accomplish that you're probably getting good, fun hockey along the way. But 8th-10th place? Blargh.

 

This. The "goal" is a Cup. But being unable to reach the ultimate goal doesn't necessariy mean an objective failure took place. Other victories can be won. I want a championship more than anything, but I can't allow myself to have a Ricky Bobby-like championship or bust mentality simply because it's not something that can be realistically expected. I hope it happens, but there is a fair chance it doesn't. So much luck and randomness goes into it. 

 

Give me a contending, entertaining team and I'll call that a success. 

[Kristian]

I agree, and personally I can't understand that either. Yes, these last 2 years were bad. But had they not "tanked", how much better could we have reasonably been? We still would have been a bad team, just not this bad. I hope to become a contending team because we undertook a rebuild. The barometer for me on what success or failure is remains the same regardless of the, as you say, 20 point difference.

 

 

This. The "goal" is a Cup. But being unable to reach the ultimate goal doesn't necessariy mean an objective failure took place. Other victories can be won. I want a championship more than anything, but I can't allow myself to have a Ricky Bobby-like championship or bust mentality simply because it's not something that can be realistically expected. I hope it happens, but there is a fair chance it doesn't. So much luck and randomness goes into it. 

 

Give me a contending, entertaining team and I'll call that a success. 

 

I'd agree with that.

 

The ultimate goal *should* be the cup, but sportsfans everywhere go through entire lives, never winning anything.

 

The goal may be the cup, but for me it's as much about just having a team worth cheering.

 

Something we've lacked since 2001, apart from the no-touch years.

[deluca67]

I think the desire for championships is way overblown on here because we're Buffalo.  I'm with Blue and shrader.

Being a Red Sox fan since I was 10 I will say winning that World Series in 2004 did wash away Bill Buckner, Buck Dent and every other past failure. A Super Bowl would wash away Norwood's kick and a Stanley Cup would wash away Hull's foot and all other failures. "Desire" for a championship is only overblown until you win one and you realize the freedom it brings. It's like sex, when you're a virgin Sex seems overblown and not a big deal, when you have sex you then realize that it's the greatest thing on earth. 

 

Successful re-build = Stanley Cup. As a sports fan there is nothing I want more than a Sabres Stanley Cup victory. I'd take one Stanley Cup over multiple Super Bowl victories.  

[wjag]

Being a Red Sox fan since I was 10 I will say winning that World Series in 2004 did wash away Bill Buckner, Buck Dent and every other past failure. A Super Bowl would wash away Norwood's kick and a Stanley Cup would wash away Hull's foot and all other failures. "Desire" for a championship is only overblown until you win one and you realize the freedom it brings. It's like sex, when you're a virgin Sex seems overblown and not a big deal, when you have sex you then realize that it's the greatest thing on earth. 

 

Successful re-build = Stanley Cup. As a sports fan there is nothing I want more than a Sabres Stanley Cup victory. I'd take one Stanley Cup over multiple Super Bowl victories.  

 

I'd take one of each please.