what would you consider the rebuild a success

[TrueBlueGED]

Without ATLEAST one cup, tanking was a failure. The whole point of 5 throwing away seasons to be the worst team was to get the very best young players to win a cup. If they don't win one it was a waste of time and a failure. Because they could have achieved the same results without going through the "sUffering". (Technically not getting McDavid would make this entire tank a failure since the team getting him didn't have to be this bad). There's a very good chance the tank will have been a failure, there's no guarantee that any team will win a cup because they have a certain player or record. There no one way to build a team......

 

Since the lockout, would you rather be Carolina or San Jose? One has a Cup, the other doesn't...and I'd much rather be a fan of the one that doesn't. Obviously I'd rather have my cake and eat it too, but winning a Cup versus not as the measure of success eliminates a huge amount of what's enjoyable about following sports.

[WildCard]

The goal is a Cup, anything else is a failure. I'd rather be a Carolina than a SJ, though we're much more likely to be a SJ

[TrueBlueGED]

The goal is a Cup, anything else is a failure. I'd rather be a Carolina than a SJ, though we're much more likely to be a SJ

So one magical run followed by a near decade of crap? No thanks. Give me perennial contention even if it always falls short.

[LastPommerFan]

Again, we have to start by defining terms. This wasn't a merely a rebuild, this was a tank. If this was a rebuild I'd be fine with contending for the next ten years (heck, even five). This was a tank, though,… an epic, multi-year tank of historic proportions. I want a Cup or it wasn't worth it.

 

This, except, rather than "wasn't worth it" I'd say, "we screwed this up".

 

Since the lockout, would you rather be Carolina or San Jose? One has a Cup, the other doesn't...and I'd much rather be a fan of the one that doesn't. Obviously I'd rather have my cake and eat it too, but winning a Cup versus not as the measure of success eliminates a huge amount of what's enjoyable about following sports.

 

I was already a fan of the 1990s Bills. I'd take just one, and then years of first round exits or 9th place finishes.

[Rasmus_]

A 2006 repeat at worst case.  I want the feeling of being on the finish line with the chance to make the Stanley Cup finals.  That would be at least a good taste in my mouth again.  Competing every night against the Montreal's, Tampa Bay's, NY Rangers and other year in year out teams would be a step in the right direction, though. 

[WildCard]

So one magical run followed by a near decade of crap? No thanks. Give me perennial contention even if it always falls short.

Perennial contention mired in disappointment. We've had that, in spades, give me a Cup.

[TrueBlueGED]

Perennial contention mired in disappointment. We've had that, in spades, give me a Cup.

We've also had an extended period of garbage: the last 15 Bills seasons. I really don't think 1 Super Bowl would make the last 15 years any easier. Maybe the first couple, but eventually that championship would just be a distant memory.

[LastPommerFan]

We've also had an extended period of garbage: the last 15 Bills seasons. I really don't think 1 Super Bowl would make the last 15 years any easier. Maybe the first couple, but eventually that championship would just be a distant memory.

 

You really like to cuddle, don't you?

[Claude_Verret]

The notion on it not being worth it if we don't get a cup seems to be hinged on us going through two all time terrible 52-54 point seasons.  I guess that I'll never understand how being 20 points better, "suffering" a little less and still not winning a cup somehow changes the needle from complete failure to acceptable.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I can't believe what I am reading from many of you, usually, very reasonable people.

 

If suffering through these two most recent seasons on top of the 40+ years of, generally, poor results and the drafting of high end prospects and adding some key pieces, which started this season, along the way does not yield at least one cup and a few *cusps* in the next 10 years, or so ... I will be apoplectic.

[apuszczalowski]

Perennial contention mired in disappointment. We've had that, in spades, give me a Cup.

exactly, the Sabres were the sharks basically and everyone said that's why they had to tank. Now that reality sets in everyone would just be happy with a good team that makes the playoffs with occasionally being in or near the finals?

[TrueBlueGED]

You really like to cuddle, don't you?

3rd base is better than cuddling, don't judge me!

 

Maybe some married folk can interject here, but I don't think having sex one time makes a subsequent sexless decade any more tolerable.

[LastPommerFan]

The notion on it not being worth it if we don't get a cup seems to be hinged on us going through two all time terrible 52-54 point seasons.  I guess that I'll never understand how being 20 points better, "suffering" a little less and still not winning a cup somehow changes the needle from complete failure to acceptable.

 

I could qualify my statements to say that ANYTHING they try that does not deliver a Cup (FA, Trade, Coaching, Training, Hiring Hitmen, etc.) is a failure. 

3rd base is better than cuddling, don't judge me!

 

Maybe some married folk can interject here, but I don't think having sex one time makes a subsequent sexless decade any more tolerable.

 

One time is always better than zero times. always.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Maybe some married folk can interject here, but I don't think having sex one time makes a subsequent sexless decade any more tolerable.

 

:w00t:

 

Wanna bet!!

[qwksndmonster]

exactly, the Sabres were the sharks basically and everyone said that's why they had to tank. Now that reality sets in everyone would just be happy with a good team that makes the playoffs with occasionally being in or near the finals?

The Sabres were the Sharks lite.  Instead of making the playoffs every year, they missed it just as often as not.

[Stoner]

So one magical run followed by a near decade of crap? No thanks. Give me perennial contention even if it always falls short.

In this post and the previous one — the importance of enjoying sports — you've pretty much destroyed any basis for being pro-tank. Weird.

[TrueBlueGED]

I could qualify my statements to say that ANYTHING they try that does not deliver a Cup (FA, Trade, Coaching, Training, Hiring Hitmen, etc.) is a failure.

 

I just don't agree with this. Frequent entertainment and the thrill of the chase are very important parts of the sports experience, and a championship or bust mentality trivializes them.

In this post and the previous one — the importance of enjoying sports — you've pretty much destroyed any basis for being pro-tank. Weird.

Not even remotely, because I think tanking gives the best chance for an extended period of entertainment. I don't find regular 10th place finishes especially compelling. But regular playoff runs into the second round and beyond? Sign me up--if you accomplish that you're probably getting good, fun hockey along the way. But 8th-10th place? Blargh.

[apuszczalowski]

I could qualify my statements to say that ANYTHING they try that does not deliver a Cup (FA, Trade, Coaching, Training, Hiring Hitmen, etc.) is a failure. 

 

One time is always better than zero times. always.

and you would be correct if the ultimate goal is to win a championship. The key to it is how acceptable the risk was to fail. If you made some big moves in FA, or brought in a new coach and failed to win a championship, the failure might be a little more tolerable because the step back taken might not be as big as dumping all of the talent on the roster and going through these last few years of crap to just get back to where they were, or where they could have been with a few good moves.

 

Many tankers would say this had to be done and they had no choice, but the problem with this team wasn't that they could be bad enough to draft a good player, it was that they had a gm for so long that was unwilling to make a big move to trade a prized prospect or pick to get someone, and for a while had a restrictive budget to try and sign better quality players. Pegs tried a different approach for about 18 months then scrapped it to blow everything up

[Sabres Fan in NS]

TrueBlue,

 

Now remember you are under oath sir.

 

Do you deny saying, or at least strongly suggesting, that you being solidly behind the tank was, at least in part, motivated by the high draft picks, as a result of said tank, would yield a good chance at winning a cup?

 

And in going full George Costanza ... I always wanted to pretend that I was a lawyer.

[Claude_Verret]

TrueBlue,

 

Now remember you are under oath sir.

 

Do you deny saying, or at least strongly suggesting, that you being solidly behind the tank was, at least in part, motivated by the high draft picks, as a result of said tank, would yield a good chance at winning a cup?

 

And in going full George Costanza ... I always wanted to pretend that I was a lawyer.

 

 

i'm not speaking for True Blue, but for me the bolded is the key word there.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

i'm not speaking for True Blue, but for me the bolded is the key word there.

 

Fine, but he is now talking about being entertained as being the most important.  Sure it is, but I wonder if he was around for all those entertaining runs to ninth place, or being eliminated in the first round, or being entertained while not even having a sniff at the playoffs.

 

Or, by far the worst feeling, being entertained all the way to the freakin, CF, or SCF, only to lose those, albeit in an entertaining fashion.

 

Give me one cup, even a boring NJ Devils style one, and then we can talk about being entertained.

[TrueBlueGED]

TrueBlue,

 

Now remember you are under oath sir.

 

Do you deny saying, or at least strongly suggesting, that you being solidly behind the tank was, at least in part, motivated by the high draft picks, as a result of said tank, would yield a good chance at winning a cup?

 

And in going full George Costanza ... I always wanted to pretend that I was a lawyer.

I think getting a series of high picks is the best way to assemble a Cup contender and to ensure competitiveness for an extended period of time because those high picks are more likely to end up as the elite players necessary to achieve those goals. I will readily acknowledge how awful a few years of last place are to endure and also recognize the risk that if the plan doesn't work, it will result in an extended period of near unwatchable hockey. I willingly accept that risk because of the upside and that consistent 8-12th place finishes are, to me, just as bad as the worst case scenario of tanking. I do not expect everyone to have that same calculus; in fact, I suspect the range of unsatisfactory hockey is wider for me than for many others here.

 

Hope that clarifies where I stand on it all.

Edited April 17, 2015 by TrueBluePhD

[Kruppstahl]

We will know the tank was a success when we have built up a team that any knowledgable hockey fan would consider the most likely or second most likely team to come out of the East and win the Cup, for a long time.  Like 7 years or more. 

 

A team that any other team in the East fears playing in the playoffs.  A team that other teams structure their lineup around knowing they will have to go through us to win the Cup, or compete for the Cup in the Finals.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I don't think you answered the question, sir.

[TrueBlueGED]

I don't think you answered the question, sir.

I thought I answered it fairly thoroughly. Where is Judge Smell when you need him?