The Next Coach of the Buffalo Sabres

[LGR4GM]

Yes I really do NOT think message boards are a great place to learn about a coach's system, as I said. How do you know who respected posters are on a board ? Like I said the average fan and average board poster can't digest the game from watching TV or even at the arena enough in order to state what a coache gameplanning is like. 

 

How he treats the media, his demeanor etc yea I think you could get a vibe from boards....... but not systems. 

 

If the fans were right, and Bylsma was such a horrible coach........why did they not do that much better once the horrible coach left? 

Because for a decade Pittsburgh has relied heavily on Crosby and Malkin to be their offensive generators and most teams have figured out how to shut them down.  The pens did a terrible, dreadful, awful job of surrounding Crosby with other talent.  Also looking over their roster they focused too much on getting good scorers or passers for Crosby as opposed to find solid two way players.  A lot of Pitts shortcomings rest with Ray Shero and how he constructed the team.  I would also say that Marc Andre Fleury is a questionable GT especially in the playoffs. 

[Patty16]

Because for a decade Pittsburgh has relied heavily on Crosby and Malkin to be their offensive generators and most teams have figured out how to shut them down.  The pens did a terrible, dreadful, awful job of surrounding Crosby with other talent.  Also looking over their roster they focused too much on getting good scorers or passers for Crosby as opposed to find solid two way players.  A lot of Pitts shortcomings rest with Ray Shero and how he constructed the team.  I would also say that Marc Andre Fleury is a questionable GT especially in the playoffs. 

 

 

Indeed, which is why I wouldn't trust message board fans just saying he's a horrible coach and only loves stretch passes. 

 

There's way more to it, and like it or not, Bylsma is respected by people who know the game way more than message board people.  (not directed to you) 

 

Shero did a pretty bad job there, it's easy to draft malkin and crosby but harder to surround them with competent talent.  

[Doohicksie]

Ruff was criticized by some and in the end most agreed it was time.

But very few said he was an outright bad coach.

A majority of Pens fans unequivocally say Bylsma was a bad coach and list reasons why.

 

 

The knock against Ruff was that the locker room had tuned him out.  A big part of his style was motivation to get them to play above their level (he did this very well in '99 and post-lockout), but after a while it just got stale.  That was the reason most agreed it was time. 

 

Whether you think Ruff was a good coach or not, Sabres fans should forever be indebted to him for holding the team together on the ice through the Rigas scandal, the bankruptcy, the league ownership and yes, the beginnings of the tank.  I think the stability of his tenure gave an air of respectability to a team in turmoil.

 

Post Ruff the team has been tanking/rebuilding, so they pretty much sucked since he left (aside from a couple of brief stretches under Nolan).

 

It'll be interesting to see what a team that doesn't have an excuse with a new coach can do.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Neuvirths Glove

[LabattBlue]

Shero did a pretty bad job there, it's easy to draft malkin and crosby but harder to surround them with competent talent.  

Only time will tell, but I've said the same thing about TM.  No brainers to pick Reinhart and EIchel, we'll see how he does with the rest of his drafts, trades & F/A.

[Patty16]

Only time will tell, but I've said the same thing about TM.  No brainers to pick Reinhart and EIchel, we'll see how he does with the rest of his drafts, trades & F/A.

 

Very true, I've like most of his trades initially, but this summer and next season should give a better picture of his roster building. I'm assuming he'll move pick(s) and prospects for a few more NHL roster players. 

[Hoss]

So far GMTM has picked up:

Evander Kane, Matt Moulson, Hudson Fasching, Nic Deslauriers and William Carrier. Those are his acquisitions that could add to the offensive talent around his stars. And that's in a year and a half. This offseason will certainly add more to the list.

[Taro T]

So far GMTM has picked up:

Evander Kane, Matt Moulson, Hudson Fasching, Nic Deslauriers and William Carrier. Those are his acquisitions that could add to the offensive talent around his stars. And that's in a year and a half. This offseason will certainly add more to the list.

He also picked up the 1st physical non-#6/7 D-man the Sabres have had since McKee left.

[Samson's Flow]

He also picked up the 1st physical non-#6/7 D-man the Sabres have had since McKee left.

But we already had Mike Weber... :nana:

[Sabres Fan in NS]

He also picked up the 1st physical non-#6/7 D-man the Sabres have had since McKee left.

 

Gorges?

 

:ph34r:

[Hoss]

He also picked up the 1st physical non-#6/7 D-man the Sabres have had since McKee left.

True. I was only focusing on offense.

[dudacek]

Murray's tale of the tape (Real players, not counting UFAs who have been traded away, or draft picks acquired)
 

In: Carrier, Fasching, Deslauriers, Gorges, Gionta, Moulson, McCormick, Kane, Bogosian, Johnson, Nevins, D'Amigo, Samuels-Thomas, Dupuy, Rodrigues

Out: Ehrhoff, Leino, Flynn, Lemieux, Armia, Myers, Adam, McNabb

[qwksndmonster]

Yes I really do NOT think message boards are a great place to learn about a coach's system, as I said. How do you know who respected posters are on a board ? Like I said the average fan and average board poster can't digest the game from watching TV or even at the arena enough in order to state what a coache gameplanning is like. 

 

How he treats the media, his demeanor etc yea I think you could get a vibe from boards....... but not systems. 

 

If the fans were right, and Bylsma was such a horrible coach........why did they not do that much better once the horrible coach left? 

Average fan =/= average message board poster.  And nobody here claimed they were doing a detailed analysis on Bylsma's system.  Blue mentioned zone entries, that's it.

 

As to whether or not fans can understand a coach's system, I'd think that most Pens fans understood Bylsma's system after 5 years, even if they couldn't break it down with words like X.Benedict can.

[nfreeman]

So far GMTM has picked up:

Evander Kane, Matt Moulson, Hudson Fasching, Nic Deslauriers and William Carrier. Those are his acquisitions that could add to the offensive talent around his stars. And that's in a year and a half. This offseason will certainly add more to the list.

 

They could add to the offense, or they could wash out (or implode in Kane's case).  I think Labatt's point was that it's just too soon to tell whether these will turn out to have been good moves.  For example, everyone liked the Moulson signing, but early returns on him were not promising last year.

[Hoss]

They could add to the offense, or they could wash out (or implode in Kane's case). I think Labatt's point was that it's just too soon to tell whether these will turn out to have been good moves. For example, everyone liked the Moulson signing, but early returns on him were not promising last year.

I know. I wasn't trying to say that he's done a great job and is already a great team builder. That's just the list of what he's done so far.

[Patty16]

Average fan =/= average message board poster.  And nobody here claimed they were doing a detailed analysis on Bylsma's system.  Blue mentioned zone entries, that's it.

 

As to whether or not fans can understand a coach's system, I'd think that most Pens fans understood Bylsma's system after 5 years, even if they couldn't break it down with words like X.Benedict can.

 

Nope, but I wouldn't say the avg poster can do much better in that dept.  Bylsma's system was hard to understand for the players bc of its complexity, it's one of the legitimate knocks on it so i don't think that fans knew what it was after 5 years.  Most Detroit fans weren't that upset that Babcock left..... yet he is considered the best in the game. So no I don't trust posters to evaluate a coaches ability. 

 

Again, it's really freaking hard to watch the game and see the subtle changes a coach makes to his gameplan during a game.  He made lots of changes during the Boston series and other series.  

[...]

I know. I wasn't trying to say that he's done a great job and is already a great team builder. That's just the list of what he's done so far.

 

I get your point, as a comparison to what Shero did. There's the un-quantifiable "chemistry" factor that we have no idea, yet, what it will be for the Sabres.  Meanwhile, I think it's safe to say Shero bombed on that and was more a Regier-style manager. 

 

With regards to Bylsma, I think TBphD detailed the reasons why I had said in prior threads that Bylsma would be a Hunter S. Thompson-esque choice: there are way too many variables left unanswered with his coaching.  For every positive, there seems to be a relatively equivocal negative,  or at least a reasonable, albeit ignorant retort (and I don't mean stupid here, just ignorant because fans don't have all of the facts usually).  He's like the first round draft pick that fell from top 5 to the mid-round because of "questions".  If the variables swing more toward the positive for the Sabres, then, they hit a home-run.  If the complaints are valid, well, then we may as well have re-hired Ron Rolston.

[Derrico]

I get your point, as a comparison to what Shero did. There's the un-quantifiable "chemistry" factor that we have no idea, yet, what it will be for the Sabres.  Meanwhile, I think it's safe to say Shero bombed on that and was more a Regier-style manager. 

 

With regards to Bylsma, I think TBphD detailed the reasons why I had said in prior threads that Bylsma would be a Hunter S. Thompson-esque choice: there are way too many variables left unanswered with his coaching.  For every positive, there seems to be a relatively equivocal negative,  or at least a reasonable, albeit ignorant retort (and I don't mean stupid here, just ignorant because fans don't have all of the facts usually).  He's like the first round draft pick that fell from top 5 to the mid-round because of "questions".  If the variables swing more toward the positive for the Sabres, then, they hit a home-run.  If the complaints are valid, well, then we may as well have re-hired Ron Rolston.

So he's the Mikhail Grigorenko of coaches?

[TrueBlueGED]

Nope, but I wouldn't say the avg poster can do much better in that dept. Bylsma's system was hard to understand for the players bc of its complexity, it's one of the legitimate knocks on it so i don't think that fans knew what it was after 5 years. Most Detroit fans weren't that upset that Babcock left..... yet he is considered the best in the game. So no I don't trust posters to evaluate a coaches ability.

 

Again, it's really freaking hard to watch the game and see the subtle changes a coach makes to his gameplan during a game. He made lots of changes during the Boston series and other series.

So I'm assuming you consider yourself well above the average Pittsburgh poster with both your knowledge of Bylsma and ability to break down a game? Look, you can't have several posts saying message board posters are clueless on systems and then proclaim there are reasons to be weary of Bylsma (but not the reasons found on message boards) and say that he made lots of adjustments in the Boston series, all while providing nary a detail.

 

Given his posts I'm assuming Dudacek read much of the same things I did, and these posts were not the equivalent of the "Ruff's system ruins talent" posts without any detail we used to see around here. If you want to lob a "message board posters are incapable of analysis" grenade and completely dismiss the criticisms, that's your business. But there was analyses that deserved to be taken seriously.

Edited May 26, 2015 by TrueBluePhD

[Patty16]

I get your point, as a comparison to what Shero did. There's the un-quantifiable "chemistry" factor that we have no idea, yet, what it will be for the Sabres.  Meanwhile, I think it's safe to say Shero bombed on that and was more a Regier-style manager. 

 

With regards to Bylsma, I think TBphD detailed the reasons why I had said in prior threads that Bylsma would be a Hunter S. Thompson-esque choice: there are way too many variables left unanswered with his coaching.  For every positive, there seems to be a relatively equivocal negative,  or at least a reasonable, albeit ignorant retort (and I don't mean stupid here, just ignorant because fans don't have all of the facts usually).  He's like the first round draft pick that fell from top 5 to the mid-round because of "questions".  If the variables swing more toward the positive for the Sabres, then, they hit a home-run.  If the complaints are valid, well, then we may as well have re-hired Ron Rolston.

 

 

Show me one reputable source that examines those questions?   

 

hes had some legit criticism for his Olympic performance. 

[Patty16]

So I'm assuming you consider yourself well above the average Pittsburgh poster with both your knowledge of Bylsma and ability to break down a game? Look, you can't have several posts saying message board posters are clueless on systems and then proclaim there are reasons to be weary of Bylsma (but not the reasons found on message boards) and say that he made lots of adjustments in the Boston series, all while providing nary a detail.

 

Given his posts I'm assuming Dudacek read much of the same things I did, and these posts were not the equivalent of the "Ruff's system ruins talent" posts without any detail we used to see around here. If you want to lob a "message board posters are incapable of analysis" grenade and completely dismiss the criticisms, that's your business. But there was analyses that deserved to be taken seriously.

 

Nope not my knowledge of Bylsma, but the game sure, I played at a high level well beyond high school, so I'm not the avg poster.  What I am saying is I wouldn't get knowledge of a coach's system and in game decision making from regular posters. 

 

IIRC in that series there was an adjustmet wherein he had not only the 2 D and C come down low for D puck retrievals, he had his wingers come back more for add'l puck support during breakouts, the longer passes he liked were being gobbled up by the 2-3 trap laid by Bos.  

 

For zone entries he was having his breakout hit a forward along the boards and look to the center ice for a zig zag type pass to have the Bos D move a little before gaining the zone.   After the tweaks they had a ton more chances and shots on goal, but if Malkin and Crosby can't score with 54 shots on goal, coaching isn;'t your main problem. Also Rask was a beast that year.

[MBHockey13]

This whole topic has me thinking - how many truly "elite" coaches are there in today's NHL? Sutter? Quenneville? Cooper? Babcock? There's always fans of those teams who complain. 

 

I definitely think it comes down to players first and coaching second. Do we want too many systems? Not enough? Someone's who's tough? Easy?

 

I think the most important trait of a head coach for the next couple of years anyway is someone who can teach and develop young players, but wasn't that Rolston's claim to fame, supposedly?

 

We've had, with the main complaint about their style:

 

1. Ruff - supposedly tried to force players to fit into his "system"

2. Rolston - a big pile of glasses and mush

3. Nolan - had no use or mind for X's and O's and only relied on "compete"

 

Is there a perfect balance? I don't know. I'm not sure the last five Stanley Cup winning coaches have much in common. One's already been fired and one is hanging by a thread, maybe.

Edited May 26, 2015 by MBHockey13

[dudacek]

Nope not my knowledge of Bylsma, but the game sure, I played at a high level well beyond high school, so I'm not the avg poster.  What I am saying is I wouldn't get knowledge of a coach's system and in game decision making from regular posters. 

 

IIRC in that series there was an adjustmet wherein he had not only the 2 D and C come down low for D puck retrievals, he had his wingers come back more for add'l puck support during breakouts, the longer passes he liked were being gobbled up by the 2-3 trap laid by Bos.  

 

For zone entries he was having his breakout hit a forward along the boards and look to the center ice for a zig zag type pass to have the Bos D move a little before gaining the zone.   After the tweaks they had a ton more chances and shots on goal, but if Malkin and Crosby can't score with 54 shots on goal, coaching isn;'t your main problem. Also Rask was a beast that year.

 

 

See, this is good stuff and it is coming from a message board poster.

 

I don't want to give too much credit to Pittsburgh message board posters, but it is why I won't dismiss them completely either.

The articulate, informed posters on this board aren't unique to this fanbase.

 

Like Blue said, there is plenty of criticism of Bylsma that goes beyond the typical 'I don't like his attitude' fanbase criticism of coaches.

 

Personally, if the guy won a cup, won 250 games faster than any other coach, and was thought highly enough of to be handed the reins of Team USA, he's worth giving a chance here. I just hope we get him a  better goalie than Fleury.

[Patty16]

See, this is good stuff and it is coming from a message board poster.

 

I don't want to give too much credit to Pittsburgh message board posters, but it is why I won't dismiss them completely either.

The articulate, informed posters on this board aren't unique to this fanbase.

 

Like Blue said, there is plenty of criticism of Bylsma that goes beyond the typical 'I don't like his attitude' fanbase criticism of coaches.

 

Personally, if the guy won a cup, won 250 games faster than any other coach, and was thought highly enough of to be handed the reins of Team USA, he's worth giving a chance here. I just hope we get him a  better goalie than Fleury.

 

Agreed.  I wasn't trying to say all posters suck or anything like that.  But how would one know just reading through random posts.  I would postulate that 99% of Pens posters didn't know that his d zone puck retrievals were something of an oddity and were eventually copied around the league.   His traditional system had the 1D go get the puck and the 2D be close by for an immediate pass.  Normal retrievals have 1D get the puck and 2D skate behind the net or near the far circle for an outlet safety pass.  Part of Bylsma's philosphy is to get the puck out of the zone asap so the big horses can skate with it. 

 

 I agree as well, you dont accomplish those things by having one rigid system that you refuse to change at all costs.  I thought he really blew it in the Olympics not bc of X's and O's as much as giving Orpik way too much ice against top lines on the big ice. He just trusted him too much.  

Edited May 26, 2015 by Patty16

[SwampD]

Agreed.  I wasn't trying to say all posters suck or anything like that.  But how would one know just reading through random posts.  I would postulate that 99% of Pens posters didn't know that his d zone puck retrievals were something of an oddity and were eventually copied around the league.   His traditional system had the 1D go get the puck and the 2D be close by for an immediate pass.  Normal retrievals have 1D get the puck and 2D skate behind the net or near the far circle for an outlet safety pass.  Part of Bylsma's philosphy is to get the puck out of the zone asap so the big horses can skate with it. 

 

 I agree as well, you dont accomplish those things by having one rigid system that you refuse to change at all costs.  I thought he really blew it in the Olympics not bc of X's and O's as much as giving Orpik way too much ice against top lines on the big ice. He just trusted him too much.  

That sounds and awful lot what the Sabres were doing during the 05-07 run. So, Bylsma copied that from Lindy, then? 

[Patty16]

That sounds and awful lot what the Sabres were doing during the 05-07 run. So, Bylsma copied that from Lindy, then? 

 

Yea i think they were pretty similar, but to be fair i don't recall as many games from 10 years ago for a mental comparison right now. I recall lindy has his wingers stay "home" a little more and that the D2 had more leeway to skate up.