Sabres fire Ted Nolan

[MattPie]

 

no one is stalking you.  There is no group think.  The reason no one ever agrees with you (besides the one other random person who is is never agreed with) is because your views are always off.  Sorry.  Forums have trolls, its not that they are a individual thinking off the beaten path, its just they are annoying

 

You're on list now too. Signed, grazoristas speaking for the BSL.

[JJFIVEOH]

Well you keep saying you are leaving these forums but keep coming back to say goofy stuff that is never on point. Maybe stop announcing you are leaving? Maybe start posting non crazy stuff?

 

 

 

no one is stalking you.  There is no group think.  The reason no one ever agrees with you (besides the one other random person who is is never agreed with) is because your views are always off.  Sorry.  Forums have trolls, its not that they are a individual thinking off the beaten path, its just they are annoying

Did I do something to piss you off? Is there an issue with me providing my input? This is a public forum where we discuss things, it's called civilized dialogue perhaps you've heard of it; because you certainly haven't followed it. I've had little time to seriously add to this discussion because half the time I'm busy defending myself from the snark that you and qwk provide on a regular basis. Don't like my posts, put me on ignore. You follow me around, call me names and pretty much just resort to attacking me and what I have to say. I know you think that the only important point of view is yours, and yours only. But you're not the only here. One of these days you'll grow up, I have little patience with children. 

 

And just because you say nobody agrees with me, doesn't make it true. Although I'm not here for the popularity contest. I can understand where you might find importance in seeking popularity by resorting to attacks, insecurity usually leads people to search for acceptance. Sad that you need to do it on an internet forum among people you probably don't even know. 

I don't really recall people's attitudes towards Nolan's besides a few select posters I had lengthy conversations with. 

 

Myself, I did like Nolan for a bit; he was instilling some character into what has been for years a characterless locker room. It was great for the young guys too. But, this was also my first Nolan experience, and as the season went on it became clear, IMO, that there is more to coaching than an attitude, and he simply can't do it.

 

So I'm not being disingenuous when I say I'm happy Nolan was fired. Nor, I suspect, are some of the other posters who feel likewise falling victim to mob-mentality. It's sports, and you always want to believe your team has done the right thing, so there will always be a contingent of fans who will agree with every move a franchise makes based on hope. Blaming people for not liking him based on group-think can easily be reversed; I can say you and others only like him because you want to go against the crowd, and wouldn't do so otherwise. I'm not saying that though, because it would be an absurd assumption based on nothing other than your professed opinions, which can be based on anything. 

 

It seems like your argument is more in aimed at reminding people of their original stances than anything else, and I just don't understand why. 

I've been a fan of Nolan throughout his tenure with the Sabres. I don't care what people think. If you think I only support him just to go against the grain, then I'm just wasting my time with you. My opinion hasn't changed, unlike others. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[WildCard]

I've been a fan of Nolan throughout his tenure with the Sabres. I don't care what people think. If you think I only support him just to go against the grain, then I'm just wasting my time with you. 

I didn't say that, in fact I said I don't believe that in my post. What I did say was you wondering if people are piling on Nolan can work two ways, it can be interpreted that Nolan defenders are only doing so to go against the tide. But the point is, it's annoying when someone claims your opinion is based on nothing other than the tide, which is what you seem to be insinuating about others, IMO. Point proven seeing as you got annoyed when you believed I claimed your opinion of being a mere product of the masses.

 

You and I had a very good conversation on Nolan before he was fired, one that I enjoyed. I know where you stand and you know where I stand. Hence my reason for not coming in this thread. I really believe all that could be ever said about Nolan, theoretically, has been said ad nauseam. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by WildCard

[JJFIVEOH]

I didn't say that, in fact I said I don't believe that in my post. What I did say was you wondering if people are piling on Nolan can work two ways, it can be interpreted that Nolan defenders are only doing so to go against the tide. But the point is, it's annoying when someone claims your opinion is based on nothing other than the tide, which is what you seem to be insinuating about others, IMO. Point proven seeing as you got annoyed when you believed I claimed your opinion of being a mere product of the masses.

 

You and I had a very good conversation on Nolan before he was fired, one that I enjoyed. I know where you stand and you know where I stand. Hence my reason for not coming in this thread. I really believe all that could be ever said about Nolan, theoretically, has been said ad nauseam. 

 

You know where I stand, I know where you stand. And I respect your opinion. As far as changing opinions by the tide, it's how I see it. Maybe the most vocal on both sides of the spectrum speak the loudest with firings and trades making the overall consensus seem exaggerated. But the impression I got is the flavor changed almost immediately after Stewart was traded and when Nolan was fired. If you disagree, that's fine. But it's how I see it. 

[Andrew Amerk]

What are you talking about? Serving as overlord? Murray is the GM. He is supposed to be in charge. Nolan was the one who tried to sabotage the long-term management strategy by not developing the young players with patience, riding the hottest goalie like we were trying to make the playoffs and using the tank talk as a motivational tool to try and eek a few more wins out of the team that almost cost us a 100% shot at McEichel. Half the board was complaining that Murray should have demanded Nolan sit Lindbeck and others to ensure the tank but Murray allowed Nolan to coach.

 

It seemed that Murray did not mettle with Nolan other than trade assets who were going to walk at the end of the year and make the one big trade for Kane sending two guys we were losing with anyway. Worth the risk in my opinion. Murray just watched Nolan be antagonistic like he's been with other GMs and got rid of him when the season ended for a fresh start. I don't understand why everyone thinks Nolan is such a great coach. True, he didn't have much to work with but we weren't in the tank until January when the master motivator couldn't coax one win out of the team. At that point you have to complete the tank and Nolan seemed unwilling to get on the same page as Murray. Murray needs someone he trusts to coach for him and I don't blame him.

You don't win coach of the year by being a crappy coach.

 

Also, Nolan's job was not to be in on the tank. You are a smart poster, I thought you'd know that.

[...]

Wait. Are we supposed to form an opinion, and then not ever let that opinion change (or, better yet, evolve)? That's pretty, uh, ridiculous.

 

FWIW, I was pretty happy with Nolan when Patty brought him here, but, if the milestone is the trade deadline, I wasn't too excited by him at that point.

 

By the last game, I could live with him starting next season, but would have preferred someone better and multidimensional. So, I guess I'm happy the Sabres put themselves in a position to find a better coach.

 

Same happened with Ruff. He seemed to be the right guy for a while, but the little things piled up and there weren't enough successes to counter the pile of little things. 16 years of little things in a pile is a lot to overcome.

[JJFIVEOH]

Wait. Are we supposed to form an opinion, and then not ever let that opinion change (or, better yet, evolve)? That's pretty, uh, ridiculous.

 

FWIW, I was pretty happy with Nolan when Patty brought him here, but, if the milestone is the trade deadline, I wasn't too excited by him at that point.

 

By the last game, I could live with him starting next season, but would have preferred someone better and multidimensional. So, I guess I'm happy the Sabres put themselves in a position to find a better coach.

 

Same happened with Ruff. He seemed to be the right guy for a while, but the little things piled up and there weren't enough successes to counter the pile of little things. 16 years of little things in a pile is a lot to overcome.

Who said it can't change?

[Huckleberry]

I got the impression that many here were warming up to him since the trade deadline. Of course that thread was deleted. It wasn't until he got fired when everybody started piling on. Not unlike when Chris Stewart go traded. 

 

Warming maybe, but i still wanted him gone.

[sicknfla]

One and a half sharts.

 

He took over the first one after RonRon had all but the final release the season before last.

 

 

I believe the fellow who is sick in Florida is questioning TM somewhat, as is Rumble Fish.

 

I certainly am holding out on the full on love of TM. I do question his integrity, as he had basically lied about not wanting to finish DFL, two years running.

I just now read this because I haven't been fully following the threads as much lately.

 

Just to state my case I am not questioning Murray overall at this point. I think it is way to early to heap praise on him and annoint him as a savior and also too early to find much fault in what he has done. Things have to play out.

 

My main criticism at this point is when he tries to act like finishing 30th wasn't the plan. We all get he can't come out and directly say it was - but no need to go out of your way to say it wasn't just because you decided to fire Nolan. We all knew he was going to. We all know the reasons why. No need to try to put an untruthful spin on it.

Edited April 16, 2015 by sicknfla

[nfreeman]

By agreeing with the bolded part of the Rabble Rousers point, I don't think you give credence to Murray's DNA. Bloodlines have him in the role he is well suited for and astonishingly groomed for.

If you don't think he has the chops for it I wonder what you really see in him. Are you suggesting he's like Larry Robinson? Great assistant coach and reluctant head coach? GMTM has been brought along and is more than ready for this role as he is proving. And all while keeping some dignity for the owner.  We will be a difficult team to play against next year.

Unless of course we have a Nolan type coach who just wants you try harder while being outshot 2-1 most nights. Any of the coach's that I expect to be coming here I don't think that happens.

 

 

I just now read this because I haven't been fully following the threads as much lately.

 

Just to state my case I am not questioning Murray overall at this point. I think it is way to early to heap praise on him and annoint him as a savior and also too early to find much fault in what he has done. Things have to play out.

 

 

Beat me to it.  I don't see how anyone could take issue with "it remains to be seen" whether TM has the right stuff.

[shrader]

 Winning favor with the Sabres fans. Not that it ended well or was a particularly well thought out decision in the first place it seems.

 

Why would LaFontaine need to win favor with Sabre fans?  That would be like Andre Reed needing to win over Bills fans (ok, I'll admit, I couldn't find a good Bills analogue for LaFontaine).

[LGR4GM]

I've been a fan of Nolan throughout his tenure with the Sabres. I don't care what people think. If you think I only support him just to go against the grain, then I'm just wasting my time with you. My opinion hasn't changed, unlike others.

Not trying to pile on and this is for everyone, many posters and people in general say things like this.  My issue with it, shouldn't your opinion change over time? I mean, I was optimistic when Nolan first came aboard because last time he left I was 9 or something. So my opinion was trying to be positive. As the season went along I saw things that made me dislike how he coached.  How he handled Grigorenko was disappointing for instance. Over the course of the year my opinion did change because I received more information.  At the end of the year my opinion changed again because I think he helped hold the team together instead of it being a Toronto situation.  If your opinion isn't changing you have closed your eyes to new information and that seems silly.  Again this is directed more at everyone than JJ

You don't win coach of the year by being a crappy coach.

 

Also, Nolan's job was not to be in on the tank. You are a smart poster, I thought you'd know that.

You win coach of the year but being expected to achieve X but instead you overcome that and achieve Y. Coach of the year is all about exceeding expectations.  If Ted Nolan was coaching and the Sabres went from bottom dwellers in January to 12th in April he would get nominated.  It is all about exceeding expectations and for me personally, the Jack Adams award means little outside of that season.  

Wait. Are we supposed to form an opinion, and then not ever let that opinion change (or, better yet, evolve)? That's pretty, uh, ridiculous.

 

FWIW, I was pretty happy with Nolan when Patty brought him here, but, if the milestone is the trade deadline, I wasn't too excited by him at that point.

 

By the last game, I could live with him starting next season, but would have preferred someone better and multidimensional. So, I guess I'm happy the Sabres put themselves in a position to find a better coach.

 

Same happened with Ruff. He seemed to be the right guy for a while, but the little things piled up and there weren't enough successes to counter the pile of little things. 16 years of little things in a pile is a lot to overcome.

I agree. 

 

Also the multidimensional point, Murray made some comment I think about how young players won't go seek out a coach but need the coach to come to them.  I wonder if Nolan was more of if you have a problem come to me type of a guy and not what Murray wants which is a more involved coach. Just tossing out some thoughts. 

[TrueBlueGED]

Beat me to it. I don't see how anyone could take issue with "it remains to be seen" whether TM has the right stuff.

I look at it a little differently. I read the post as whether he has the right makeup for the job, and I think it's pretty obvious he has the right stuff for this. Last year he wasn't afraid to set the market before the trade deadline, he clearly doesn't fall in love with his own prospects, and he's not afraid to make big changes. That doesn't mean he's making the right choices or that he ends up building a contender, but I know one concern about his hire was being a first time GM, and he definitely doesn't seem overmatched.

[MattPie]

Did I do something to piss you off? Is there an issue with me providing my input? This is a public forum where we discuss things, it's called civilized dialogue perhaps you've heard of it; because you certainly haven't followed it. I've had little time to seriously add to this discussion because half the time I'm busy defending myself from the snark that you and qwk provide on a regular basis. Don't like my posts, put me on ignore. You follow me around, call me names and pretty much just resort to attacking me and what I have to say. I know you think that the only important point of view is yours, and yours only. But you're not the only here. One of these days you'll grow up, I have little patience with children. 

 

 

I'm not sure you've heard of it either. I'm not trying to antogonize you, but civilized dialogue generally doesn't allow calling people that don't agree with you children or sheep.

 

As for the point, my eye-opening moment on Nolan was indeed the trade deadline; maybe that's why the "tide turned". After it, I figured we'd see players (I'm thinking of Hodgson specifically) given another shot on the upper lines where they "should" be playing now that a few of the vets had been shipped out. Instead, Nolan just found new AHL vets to put on those lines. I'm not trying to defend Le Coney Hotdog, but every once in awhile it seems like you need to put him in a position to succeed to see if he's gotten it yet. The fear is Nolan would nail McEichel to the 4th line if he has a few bad shifts. Maybe you do that a few times to send a message, but at some point you have to put the player in the right place and let them either work through it or sink.

 

EDIT: Oh, and the Hackett eligibility situation: maybe Murray had said don't worry about it or maybe he wanted to see more of Lindback, but it seems foolish to keep playing Lindback and lose out on Hackett's rights for no particular reason. If nothing else, maybe you get a (very) late pick for Hackett or add him to a trade that's bringing a goaltender back.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Met'yuPirog

[dudacek]

By agreeing with the bolded part of the Rabble Rousers point, I don't think you give credence to Murray's DNA. Bloodlines have him in the role he is well suited for and astonishingly groomed for.

If you don't think he has the chops for it I wonder what you really see in him. Are you suggesting he's like Larry Robinson? Great assistant coach and reluctant head coach? GMTM has been brought along and is more than ready for this role as he is proving. And all while keeping some dignity for the owner.  We will be a difficult team to play against next year.

Unless of course we have a Nolan type coach who just wants you try harder while being outshot 2-1 most nights. Any of the coach's that I expect to be coming here I don't think that happens.

 

To clarify: I think Tim has the right stuff. Only time will tell if I'm right.

 

Give the next coach the same lineup Nolan had this year and he'll get outshot 2:1 as well. You know it and I know it. Stop making it seem like it had something to do with Nolan. And god forbid a coach preaches work ethic, that bastard. I think we need a coach that lets players float all night. 

 

I think you are you wrong. I think Nolan's system lends itself to being outshot.

X had a good post on this yesterday. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by dudacek

[North Buffalo]

Not trying to pile on and this is for everyone, many posters and people in general say things like this.  My issue with it, shouldn't your opinion change over time? I mean, I was optimistic when Nolan first came aboard because last time he left I was 9 or something. So my opinion was trying to be positive. As the season went along I saw things that made me dislike how he coached.  How he handled Grigorenko was disappointing for instance. Over the course of the year my opinion did change because I received more information.  At the end of the year my opinion changed again because I think he helped hold the team together instead of it being a Toronto situation.  If your opinion isn't changing you have closed your eyes to new information and that seems silly.  Again this is directed more at everyone than JJ

 

You win coach of the year but being expected to achieve X but instead you overcome that and achieve Y. Coach of the year is all about exceeding expectations.  If Ted Nolan was coaching and the Sabres went from bottom dwellers in January to 12th in April he would get nominated.  It is all about exceeding expectations and for me personally, the Jack Adams award means little outside of that season.  

I agree. 

 

Also the multidimensional point, Murray made some comment I think about how young players won't go seek out a coach but need the coach to come to them.  I wonder if Nolan was more of if you have a problem come to me type of a guy and not what Murray wants which is a more involved coach. Just tossing out some thoughts.

 

See and this last paragraph is a legit argument against Nolan, though I am not sure about its veracity... Could be, Nolan and younger guys have seemed to be an issue, but not always, more a hustle kinda deal with Nolan, he doesn't deal with immature young kids. Grigs and Big Z, as Grigs appeared to figure it out he got more playing time.. not sure

[LTS]

Why would LaFontaine need to win favor with Sabre fans?  That would be like Andre Reed needing to win over Bills fans (ok, I'll admit, I couldn't find a good Bills analogue for LaFontaine).

 

PLF didn't need to.  Sorry it might have been unclear.  My post was regarding WHY PLF was brought in by Pegula.

[North Buffalo]

I'm not sure you've heard of it either. I'm not trying to antogonize you, but civilized dialogue generally doesn't allow calling people that don't agree with you children or sheep.

 

As for the point, my eye-opening moment on Nolan was indeed the trade deadline; maybe that's why the "tide turned". After it, I figured we'd see players (I'm thinking of Hodgson specifically) given another shot on the upper lines where they "should" be playing now that a few of the vets had been shipped out. Instead, Nolan just found new AHL vets to put on those lines. I'm not trying to defend Le Coney Hotdog, but every once in awhile it seems like you need to put him in a position to succeed to see if he's gotten it yet. The fear is Nolan would nail McEichel to the 4th line if he has a few bad shifts. Maybe you do that a few times to send a message, but at some point you have to put the player in the right place and let them either work through it or sink.

IMO Cody is gone the way of staph, Sabres need to cure this brewing infection. i like Nolan have little time for it, Cody is a poor mans Brad Richards..

[MattPie]

IMO Cody is gone the way of staph, Sabres need to cure this brewing infection. i like Nolan have little time for it, Cody is a poor mans Brad Richards..

 

That may well be true, even if he was the leading scorer last year. I just don't think you can make that decision based on seeing how he plays with Matt Ellis on the 4th line. If I remember right, if CH gets bought out this year, the cap hit is 1/3 of the contract, whereas next year it's 2/3. It would seem like an easier decision if CH had sank (or swam) on the 2nd line for the last two months.

[Doohicksie]

IMO Cody is gone the way of staph, Sabres need to cure this brewing infection. i like Nolan have little time for it, Cody is a poor mans Brad Richards..

 

I think this is a "remains to be seen" situation as well.  There are players who make those around them better; there are players that do better when paired with the right players.  Obviously the first type is preferred; Cody is the second type.  But.... he led the team in scoring last year; maybe this year is the anomaly and considering the significant upgrade in talent coming, maybe his game will step up with it.  I'm not saying it definitely will, just that the book isn't closed yet.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Neuvichs Perchatka

[K-9]

... I think you are you wrong. I think Nolan's system lends itself to being outshot.

X had a good post on this yesterday. 

Outshot and outpossessed. When you deliberately coach a system that doesn't seek to maximize puck possession, you're just not putting guys in the best position for scoring opportunities most of the time. It deliberately stifles offensive hockey and I can only imagine what Murray thought about one of McDeichel in that scenario. Nolan was out of his depth and it showed. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Randall Flagg]

To clarify: I think Tim has the right stuff. Only time will tell if I'm right.

 

 

I think you are you wrong. I think Nolan's system lends itself to being outshot.

X had a good post on this yesterday.

But X's post has an agenda driven by pack mentality and desire to gang up on poor Teddy.

[MattPie]

But X's post has an agenda driven by pack mentality and desire to gang up on poor Teddy.

 

The BSL has extended a friend request to X to join the grazoristas, but he hasn't responded yet.

[qwksndmonster]

The BSL has extended a friend request to X to join the grazoristas, but he hasn't responded yet.

X = BSL

[MattPie]

X = BSL

Edited April 16, 2015 by Met'yuPirog