GDT: Toronto @ Buffalo; 7:30m pm EST

[plenzmd1]

So d$R your premise is owners only own to make money....you are really saying that with this guy owning both teams????

 

Players don't care bout the fans...but we have them extra motivated because of the fans????

 

I ask this sincerely...and please leave the $.10 words out of this...do you not see the absolute flaws in your logic there?

 

And i am pretty sure the whole culture of hockey, not just pro hockey but all of hockey is players play for the crest....is that a load of crap too?

 

If you believe the Sabres should win at all costs, just say so. I can respect that.

 

But to have you and DeLuca act all kinds of morally superior and throw around terms like "morons" Idiotic" "losers" "entitled" at the  posters, and fans in general.  who disagree with your opinion...i just don't see what good it does.

[...]

Question: so, if the players don't care about the fans, why should we care about the moral/principled arguments against cheering against them?

[darksabre]

So d$R your premise is owners only own to make money....you are really saying that with this guy owning both teams????

 

Players don't care bout the fans...but we have them extra motivated because of the fans????

 

I ask this sincerely...and please leave the $.10 words out of this...do you not see the absolute flaws in your logic there?

 

And i am pretty sure the whole culture of hockey, not just pro hockey but all of hockey is players play for the crest....is that a load of crap too?

 

If you believe the Sabres should win at all costs, just say so. I can respect that.

 

But to have you and DeLuca act all kinds of morally superior and throw around terms like "morons" Idiotic" "losers" "entitled" at the posters, and fans in general. who disagree with your opinion...i just don't see what good it does.

I've already said I don't think the players are being motivated by the fans. They're just having some luck right now.

 

With respect to owners, specifically T-Pegs, I think he's in it to make money and be seen as a hero. As a fan he's in it for his own glory too.

 

Hockey players don't play for crests at the pro level. They play for contracts. If they played for crests they wouldn't torture fans with things like free agency and NTA's. They play for themselves and their teammates.

 

The Sabres, if they ever win anything, will do so regardless of what the fans think.

 

I don't believe in winning at all costs either. I'm not that kind of guy.

[LTS]

Frankly, I think players don't play for a crest so much as they play for the locker room.  Once upon a time it might have been for the crest but now with free agency it's more about the guys who are in the room who are going to help you achieve your hockey dreams.

 

Players care about fans.  They like to feel support just like everyone does.  They also dislike negative reinforcement of boos when they score and cheers when they lose.  They can avoid talk radio and news paper articles but they can't avoid it when they are in the rink.

 

The players in the locker room all know that the breakdown of the 20-22 players who they will be with, day in and day out, next year will change drastically.  Those who will be around will like having another talented player in the room.  Those who are leaving would like to keep earning a paycheck, even if it's in the AHL or a Euro league, etc.

The fans will still be there next year.  Fans root for the crest because that doesn't change for them.  

 

There's your misalignment of priorities and why you have this problem.

[darksabre]

Question: so, if the players don't care about the fans, why should we care about the moral/principled arguments against cheering against them?

It's an internal dispute isn't it? We're discussing different ways of being fans. Our dispute about how to cheer for the team has nothing to do with how the players perceive it. It's about how fans perceive each other.

Frankly, I think players don't play for a crest so much as they play for the locker room. Once upon a time it might have been for the crest but now with free agency it's more about the guys who are in the room who are going to help you achieve your hockey dreams.

 

Players care about fans. They like to feel support just like everyone does. They also dislike negative reinforcement of boos when they score and cheers when they lose. They can avoid talk radio and news paper articles but they can't avoid it when they are in the rink.

 

The players in the locker room all know that the breakdown of the 20-22 players who they will be with, day in and day out, next year will change drastically. Those who will be around will like having another talented player in the room. Those who are leaving would like to keep earning a paycheck, even if it's in the AHL or a Euro league, etc.

 

The fans will still be there next year. Fans root for the crest because that doesn't change for them.

 

There's your misalignment of priorities and why you have this problem.

Good post.

[plenzmd1]

I've already said I don't think the players are being motivated by the fans. They're just having some luck right now.

 

With respect to owners, specifically T-Pegs, I think he's in it to make money and be seen as a hero. As a fan he's in it for his own glory too.

 

Hockey players don't play for crests at the pro level. They play for contracts. If they played for crests they wouldn't torture fans with things like free agency and NTA's. They play for themselves and their teammates.

 

The Sabres, if they ever win anything, will do so regardless of what the fans think.

 

I don't believe in winning at all costs either. I'm not that kind of guy.

 

K, i get this.Dont agree with most of it, but we will leave that be.

 

And winning at all costs i only meant they should keep wining this year, even if it cost them one of the two desired players.

Frankly, I think players don't play for a crest so much as they play for the locker room.  Once upon a time it might have been for the crest but now with free agency it's more about the guys who are in the room who are going to help you achieve your hockey dreams.

 

Players care about fans.  They like to feel support just like everyone does.  They also dislike negative reinforcement of boos when they score and cheers when they lose.  They can avoid talk radio and news paper articles but they can't avoid it when they are in the rink.

 

The players in the locker room all know that the breakdown of the 20-22 players who they will be with, day in and day out, next year will change drastically.  Those who will be around will like having another talented player in the room.  Those who are leaving would like to keep earning a paycheck, even if it's in the AHL or a Euro league, etc.

 

The fans will still be there next year.  Fans root for the crest because that doesn't change for them.  

 

There's your misalignment of priorities and why you have this problem.

I also enjoyed this post

Edited April 2, 2015 by plenzmd1

[darksabre]

K, i get this.Dont agree with most of it, but we will leave that be.

 

And winning at all costs i only meant they should keep wining this year, even if it cost them one of the two desired players.

I also enjoyed this post

I don't really want them to win anymore this year, but who am I to tell them not to? I'm realistic. I know they don't care whether or not I want them to win or lose. They're going to do what they believe is right for them.

[...]

It's an internal dispute isn't it? We're discussing different ways of being fans. Our dispute about how to cheer for the team has nothing to do with how the players perceive it. It's about how fans perceive each other.

 

 

 

No it's not.  I have no dispute rooting for the team to lose.  Apparently, though, lots of people seem to not like that and want to tell folks like me that my fandom is hollow or unprincipled.  So, if there's a dispute, it's one-sided. 

 

And the arguments against rooting for the team to lose are very much based on these nebulous morals and principles.  It's ironic that, if your premise is true, the morals and principles don't affect the team whatsoever, all they seem to affect are the other fans.  So, in other words, you're saying the players are playing for themselves and the contracts despite the fans even during a Cup-winning season (which, btw, logically supports rooting against them during a home game).

 

My question is, then, why do you, or deluca, or any other anti-tank zealot give one whit what other people think?  Why bother wasting your time trying to tell others how crappy they are when it doesn't matter at all?  Why does Paul Hamilton even bother asking the question to players after the game? 

 

Isn't playing only for each other and contracts as morally and principally deprived as cheering against them at home, if you're so inclined to make that argument in the first place (and you have all season)?

 

Tell me, why NOT openly cheer against them during home games if they're only playing for each other and contracts?  Who is less wrong?

 

Oh, forgot to ask, if this is a matter of morals and principles, then where is your tolerance and understanding?  Why aren't you tolerant and understanding of others' thoughts and manner of expression?  Why do you feel the need to thrust your values upon others?  Hands up, don't shoot!

Edited April 2, 2015 by SiZzlEmIsTEr

[Doohicksie]

Didn't watch any of the game.  Saw the highlights on NHL.com.  I was out riding my bicycle 30 miles.  Gorgeous night except for the 15 mph headwind on the second half of the ride.

 

 

 

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about winning the shart at this point, but neither am I all that upset about it.  It will be what it will be and any histrionics on my part won't affect it.  I'm hoping that the Sabres bring 30th home or barring that, that they win the lottery. 

 

No matter what happens on that front, I love seeing Risto, Zads, Larsson, Girgs, Grigo, and the rest growing up before my eyes.  As they and the others still in the pipeline mature I think the Sabres will be capable of winning the Cup.  To win you need a good team but you also need some lucky bounces along the way.  I think the Sabres will be within a few favorable bounces of the Cup for several years and will likely win it with the core that's being assembled.  I hope the first favorable bounce involves a lottery ball.

[darksabre]

No it's not. I have no dispute rooting for the team to lose. Apparently, though, lots of people seem to not like that and want to tell folks like me that my fandom is hollow or unprincipled. So, if there's a dispute, it's one-sided.

 

And the arguments against rooting for the team to lose are very much based on these nebulous morals and principles. The irony is that, if your premise is true, the morals and principles don't affect the team whatsoever, all they seem to affect are the other fans. So, in other words, you're saying the players are playing for themselves and the contracts despite the fans even during a Cup-winning season (which, btw, logically supports rooting against them during a home game).

 

My question is, then, why do you, or deluca, or any other anti-tank zealot give on whit what other people think? Why bother wasting your time trying to tell others how crappy they are when it doesn't matter at all? Why does Paul Hamilton even bother asking the question to players after the game?

 

Isn't playing only for each other and contracts as morally and principally deprived as cheering against them at home, if you're so inclined to make that argument in the first place (and you have all season)?

 

Tell me, why NOT openly cheer against them during home games if they're only playing for each other and contracts? Who is less wrong?

Now we're getting to the meat of it. This is a good post. Really there's no reason for you not to cheer against the team. It is an argument of morality. It's why we have this idea of, if you support the tank, at least be polite about it. You're rooting for the common good of your team. So don't boo that team at the same time. It's hypocritical on its face.

 

I don't have a problem with this team being bad during a rebuild. But I'd rather just leave it alone instead of actively supporting it. It's bad enough we even have to go through this as fans. But cheering it on is redundant.

[...]

Now we're getting to the meat of it. This is a good post. Really there's no reason for you not to cheer against the team. It is an argument of morality. It's why we have this idea of, if you support the tank, at least be polite about it. You're rooting for the common good of your team. So don't boo that team at the same time. It's hypocritical on its face.

 

I don't have a problem with this team being bad during a rebuild. But I'd rather just leave it alone instead of actively supporting it. It's bad enough we even have to go through this as fans. But cheering it on is redundant.

 

 

It's not hypocritical, it's honest.  You are clinging to this archaic notion of what a fan is supposed to be like, when in truth, fandom has evolved.  If the team is doing something on the ice that goes against their best interest, you shouldn't cheer them on as if you don't notice, you should boo them to express your honest thoughts and feelings.

 

Cheering for the team to win when you really want them to lose is what's hypocritical.

[carpandean]

I'm hoping that the Sabres bring 30th home or barring that, that they win the lottery.

 

If they finish 29th behind Arizona, then it would also be fine for the 'Yotes to win the lottery.

[IKnowPhysics]

If they finish 29th behind Arizona, then it would also be fine for the 'Yotes to win the lottery.

 

 

Yep, if we finish 29th, there's a 33.5% chance we draft top two.  Still an unacceptable risk, imo.

[K-9]

Moral imperatives? Regarding cheering or booing the home team? Really? 

 

I've reached the end of this hypocritical, sanctimonious, self-righteous, holier than thou bullschit. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[darksabre]

It's not hypocritical, it's honest. You are clinging to this archaic notion of what a fan is supposed to be like, when in truth, fandom has evolved. If the team is doing something on the ice that goes against their best interest, you shouldn't cheer them on as if you don't notice, you should boo them to express your honest thoughts and feelings.

 

Cheering for the team to win when you really want them to lose is what's hypocritical.

I prefer not to cheer at all.

[...]

I prefer not to cheer at all.

 

 

That's fine, that's your choice.  But don't hate on people who choose to express their feelings and thoughts in the moment when, as we've established, it's the honest, and enlightened, thing to do.

[darksabre]

That's fine, that's your choice. But don't hate on people who choose to express their feelings and thoughts in the moment when, as we've established, it's the honest, and enlightened, thing to do.

Honest and enlightened are not how I would describe it. Logical perhaps. But enlightened is just as high-horse as anything I could argue.

Edited April 2, 2015 by d4rksabre

[TrueBlueGED]

It's not hypocritical, it's honest. You are clinging to this archaic notion of what a fan is supposed to be like, when in truth, fandom has evolved. If the team is doing something on the ice that goes against their best interest, you shouldn't cheer them on as if you don't notice, you should boo them to express your honest thoughts and feelings.

 

Cheering for the team to win when you really want them to lose is what's hypocritical.

I always knew you were a closet progressive! :p

[carpandean]

Yep, if we finish 29th, there's a 33.5% chance we draft top two.  Still an unacceptable risk, imo.

 

Well ... yeah.  Let's not do that, then.  ;)

 

 

 

Edit: I just realized that my sig line quote may prove particularly relevant.

Edited April 2, 2015 by carpandean

[...]

Honest and enlightened are not how I would describe it. Logical perhaps. But enlightened is just as high-horse as anything I could argue.

 

 

If one were to have evolved from old mores and beliefs using reason and logic, one could be said to be "enlightened", hence "The Age of Enlightenment".  But you're welcome to protect the old ways in your own manner, I will not judge you for that.

I always knew you were a closet progressive! :P

 

 

I figured someone would pick up on the strategy here eventually.

[darksabre]

If one were to have evolved from old mores and beliefs using reason and logic, one could be said to be "enlightened", hence "The Age of Enlightenment". But you're welcome to protect the old ways in your own manner, I will not judge you for that.

Please define "old ways". I don't think what I'm arguing is old fashioned or anything.

[...]

Please define "old ways". I don't think what I'm arguing is old fashioned or anything.

 

 

You have been following along, no?

[woods-racer]

Didn't watch any of the game.  Saw the highlights on NHL.com.  I was out riding my bicycle 30 miles.  Gorgeous night except for the 15 mph headwind on the second half of the ride.

 

 

 

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about winning the shart at this point, but neither am I all that upset about it.  It will be what it will be and any histrionics on my part won't affect it.  I'm hoping that the Sabres bring 30th home or barring that, that they win the lottery. 

 

No matter what happens on that front, I love seeing Risto, Zads, Larsson, Girgs, Grigo, and the rest growing up before my eyes.  As they and the others still in the pipeline mature I think the Sabres will be capable of winning the Cup.  To win you need a good team but you also need some lucky bounces along the way.  I think the Sabres will be within a few favorable bounces of the Cup for several years and will likely win it with the core that's being assembled.  I hope the first favorable bounce involves a lottery ball.

Histrionics

Histrionics

Histrionics

Histrionics

Histrionics

 

Thanks for that one :flirt:

[darksabre]

You have been following along, no?

Sure. But I think you've confused logic with quality. Two arguments can be logical and enlightened while having different value placed on them.

[Robviously]

The frustration is a manifestation of that entitlement. Fans who have been following this team for 40 years, through numerous roster turnovers and ownership groups and coaches, all ignoring that the people who made up these teams were doing the work for themselves, not for the fans. 40 years of fans looking for the glory of their team while components cycle through looking for their own glory. The two don't often meet. So while the players are worrying about their own careers some old fan is sitting around crying that because he's been watching the team for 40 years he's frustrated they haven't delivered for him. Never mind that the players don't give a ###### about him.

OK, time to step away from the computer for a while, Dr. Freud.

 

I think the frustration is a manifestation of (1) we suck, (2) we've sucked for a really long time, and (3) we're really close to landing a special player and we might screw it up by, get this, winning meaningless games when all we have to do is lose.  Like, we suck but we can't even do that right.  And if you want you can mix in everything that comes with growing up in Buffalo as to why sports are so important culturally.

 

Plus, as someone else wisely pointed out last night (can't remember who), there's a lot that comes with being in 30th so long only to lose it at the end.  If we were Arizona and falling in the standings only to come up short at 29th overall, we'd be a lot less miserable than if we were 30th for a couple months and lost it in the last week of the season.  There's an "anchoring" that has already taken place where we started this negotiation at 30th and can't back off now.