How far would you go

[Claude_Verret]

My point exactly. They didn't jettison all of their moveable assets until McDavid was in range. If they wanted McKinnon they could have went after it like Arizona just did.

Were talking past each other I think. McDavid is undoubtedly the ultimate goal best outcome to two years of tanking, but there's no way DR or GMTM embarked on this road thinking the only way we come out of it as a yearly contender is if we get McDavid. There's just no way their rebuild plan was that narrow in focus.

[qwksndmonster]

DR was in a psychological quandary as he had to destroy that which he gave birth to. Denial is a bitch. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

"Maybe if I add an eighteen year old Grigorenko to the mix that will put us over the top." #Darcylogic #Effcenters

[Weave]

Were talking past each other I think. McDavid is undoubtedly the ultimate goal best outcome to two years of tanking, but there's no way DR or GMTM embarked on this road thinking the only way we come out of it as a yearly contender is if we get McDavid. There's just no way their rebuild plan was that narrow in focus.

 

I think that, as Eichel became more of a sure thing, that the focus was surely as narrow as picks 1 or 2.  We've had a recent history of high risk, high reward drafting that ran counter to our drafting history.  I believe this was a planned continuance of that philosophy.

[3putt]

You said it yourself; if McDavid was the only goal from this, Rolston would still be coach. Regier clearly wanted a full-blown tank, there's no way he would have gotten rid of Rolston seeing as he was coaching exactly how he wanted.

 

To me, there are different ways to tank. Both are brutal, but could you imagine two years under Regier and Rolston?  :death:

What you ascribe to Regier as a tank I can agree with. I think he didn't have a satisfactory plan as to how to go forward. TM is managing a rebuild and the final stages of the purge But the argument I advocate is that it isn't about one player. McJesus is just graduating magna laudae from the process.

[deluca67]

This is where I think you are wrong. The return for the players you mention, was always prospects and picks. They simply weren't valuable enough to return difference makers. We traded Myers + to get a difference maker, in theory, and the assets needed to sweeten the deal were not available on the farm when we needed to move Vanek, Miller et al. They were not resigning here.

 

This was not and has never been about one player. You like to repeat that mantra because it fits your narrative. The suffering is about clearing out the old, ineffective core and replacing it with a new effective one. Girgs, Reinhart, Kane, Risto, Zadorov, Bogosian plus the promise of Fasching, Baptiste, Grigo is the current fruit of it. One or two pieces will come this summer be it McJesus and a vet or more young assets that can be used to obtain more. So if you continue to look at the current state as a a focused effort to get one player, feel free, that is your choice. But the reality is we are at the end of the tear down and the rebuild is under way. The most expeditious path to respectability will be a top 2 pick to ADD TO the the new young core. I cheer for the laundry, and for too long the talent wearing it was not sufficient to win championships. Proof? We have none. I am glad they took a longer view and made a,clean sweep. No matter who we draft in June.

IMO, if the Sabres wanted to, they could have traded Miller, Vanek and Pominivlle much earlier than they did with term still on their contracts and made real hockey trades. Players in for players out. It is true that there wasn't much on the farm to sweeten deals. Teams weren't banding the door down for Luck Adams. That in it's self is another condemnation of the Regier era. I believe it down to my core, that if Terry Pegula would have cleaned house right away this roster could have turned over and we wouldn't be in the mess we are today. All the hopes fixated on finishing 30th.

[K-9]

Were talking past each other I think. McDavid is undoubtedly the ultimate goal best outcome to two years of tanking, but there's no way DR or GMTM embarked on this road thinking the only way we come out of it as a yearly contender is if we get McDavid. There's just no way their rebuild plan was that narrow in focus.

Of course not and TM would be derelict in his duties if he thought that way. 

 

We fans, on the other hand, have the luxury of such narrow focus. And why not? Most of us know there are good players to be had outside of McDeichel, but none of them are close to being as good. And it would have been a shame to suck this much for this long and NOT get the best prize as a reward for that suffering. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

"Maybe if I add an eighteen year old Grigorenko to the mix that will put us over the top." #Darcylogic #Effcenters

Grigo was put in an untenable position. I tend to think the rumors of veterans on the team resenting his arrival and automatic roster spot are true. That resentment is another indicator of just how short that former core was in the hockey character department. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[deluca67]

You said it yourself; if McDavid was the only goal from this, Rolston would still be coach. Regier clearly wanted a full-blown tank, there's no way he would have gotten rid of Rolston seeing as he was coaching exactly how he wanted.

 

To me, there are different ways to tank. Both are brutal, but could you imagine two years under Regier and Rolston?  :death:

I do not believe now and I did not believe then that what Regier ended up doing wad intentional or part of any planned "tank." Going into Lindy's last year with the team Status Quo thought they had a playoff team. The wheels flew off that season early and Regier did what he always has, reacted and made poor decisions. The "tank" wasn't some grand master plan,their plans blew up in their faces and they were left with no choice.

[Weave]

Of course not and TM would be derelict in his duties if he thought that way. 

 

We fans, on the other hand, have the luxury of such narrow focus. And why not? Most of us know there are good players to be had outside of McDeichel, but none of them are close to being as good. And it would have been a shame to suck this much for this long and NOT get the best prize as a reward for that suffering. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

 

If you are going to subject your fans to two seasons of the worst hockey in team history, you had better be so narrow in focus as to be after 1 particular player.  You cannot justify two seasons of this crap to line up for Michael Dal Colle and Mitch Marner as your take away.

[deluca67]

there is no doubt in my mind Regier was brought in to facilitate their tank.

I have no doubt he was, I do very much doubt he is aware of that fact.

[WildCard]

I do not believe now and I did not believe then that what Regier ended up doing wad intentional or part of any planned "tank." Going into Lindy's last year with the team Status Quo thought they had a playoff team. The wheels flew off that season early and Regier did what he always has, reacted and made poor decisions. The "tank" wasn't some grand master plan,their plans blew up in their faces and they were left with no choice.

I agree to an extent. That shortened season was not an intentional tank, but after the "suffering" comment, keeping an AHL coach as your HC to start October, and then trading away Vanek for UFA he can turn into picks in Moulson and 1st rounders as well...well that's a tank. They may not have set out to do it, but once it became inevitable, they didn't shy away from it

[K-9]

IMO, if the Sabres wanted to, they could have traded Miller, Vanek and Pominivlle much earlier than they did with term still on their contracts and made real hockey trades. Players in for players out. It is true that there wasn't much on the farm to sweeten deals. Teams weren't banding the door down for Luck Adams. That in it's self is another condemnation of the Regier era. I believe it down to my core, that if Terry Pegula would have cleaned house right away this roster could have turned over and we wouldn't be in the mess we are today. All the hopes fixated on finishing 30th.

Hindsight being what it is, this is hard to argue. But it's not an easy decision to tear down a playoff/cusp of playoff team when the idea of adding a couple key players to the mix might get you over the top. 

 

I'm trying to look at this as the Sabres' inaugural expansion team and we are gonna spin the wheel for a chance at our next Gilbert. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

If you are going to subject your fans to two seasons of the worst hockey in team history, you had better be so narrow in focus as to be after 1 particular player.  You cannot justify two seasons of this crap to line up for Michael Dal Colle and Mitch Marner as your take away.

All the player moves and prospect acquisitions the past two seasons don't support the idea of such a narrow focus by Murray. Not in the least. It is no surprise to me that this roster would be expansion bad while prospects developed and other new pieces were added. 

 

There is organizational narrow focus and then there's fan narrow focus, which is what your last sentence reflects. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[deluca67]

I agree to an extent. That shortened season was not an intentional tank, but after the "suffering" comment, keeping an AHL coach as your HC to start October, and then trading away Vanek for UFA he can turn into picks in Moulson and 1st rounders as well...well that's a tank. They may not have set out to do it, but once it became inevitable, they didn't shy away from it

Vanek wasn't coming back. As always, Regier let a situation get to a point where his hand gets forced. Trading Vanek wasn't part of a "tank." It was panic, as in "dear god we can't let another player walk and get nothing in return." The "tank" didn't start until the SS Status Quo had all but sunk.

[WildCard]

Vanek wasn't coming back. As always, Regier let a situation get to a point where his hand gets forced. Trading Vanek wasn't part of a "tank." It was panic, as in "dear god we can't let another player walk and get nothing in return." The "tank" didn't start until the SS Status Quo had all but sunk.

The act of trading Vanek is not in and of itself one of tanking, but the return is. He designed the pick hoping for a 2015 1st, and he got a UFA in Moulson he knew would add even more picks. He could have swapped Vanek for prospects/NHl player-for-player deal, but he didn't.

[Weave]

Hindsight being what it is, this is hard to argue. But it's not an easy decision to tear down a playoff/cusp of playoff team when the idea of adding a couple key players to the mix might get you over the top. 

 

I'm trying to look at this as the Sabres' inaugural expansion team and we are gonna spin the wheel for a chance at our next Gilbert. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

All the player moves and prospect acquisitions the past two seasons don't support the idea of such a narrow focus by Murray. Not in the least. It is no surprise to me that this roster would be expansion bad while prospects developed and other new pieces were added. 

 

There is organizational narrow focus and then there's fan narrow focus, which is what your last sentence reflects. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

I completely disagree.  The player and prospect moves most certainly do support an attempt at full on tank.  Nothing was returned at present full value of what left.  Every move and deal left our team incrementally worse in the near term.  Every one.  It was necessary for a full on tank with a last overall finish in mind.

Edited March 22, 2015 by weave

[deluca67]

The act of trading Vanek is not in and of itself one of tanking, but the return is. He designed the pick hoping for a 2015 1st, and he got a UFA in Moulson he knew would add even more picks. He could have swapped Vanek for prospects/NHl player-for-player deal, but he didn't.

I believe if Vanek wanted to remain a Buffalo Sabre he would be a Sabre today. I think Regier made the best trade possible he could under the circumstances. Not many teams are going to give you young NHL stars for a rental player. If they wanted to trade Vanek 2-3 seasons earlier, I believe the return would have been more towards NHL ready talent than picks and prospects. Again, the once Regier allowed things to get to a certain point, his hand was forced.

[K-9]

I completely disagree.  The player and prospect moves most certainly do support an attempt at full on tank.  Nothing was returned at present full value of what left.  Every move and deal left our team incrementally worse in the near term.  Every one.  

They aren't in it for the short term. The result, in the short term, was never gonna be anything different, regardless who was available in the draft. I can't believe anyone is surprised. The idea is to build a sustainable and perennial cup-contending team, which I think Murray's moves are indicative of so far. He's got assets to parlay, cap room to attract a marquis FA or two, and some talented prospects currently getting NHL seasoning. 

 

If you believe that the team focus would be so narrow as to leave their plan in the hands of things out of their control just to get one player, so be it. McDeichel is just ONE piece. The KEY piece, yes. But one piece just the same. Murray's task will still be the same even if we are fortunate enough to land one of McDeichel. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[qwksndmonster]

I believe if Vanek wanted to remain a Buffalo Sabre he would be a Sabre today. I think Regier made the best trade possible he could under the circumstances. Not many teams are going to give you young NHL stars for a rental player. If they wanted to trade Vanek 2-3 seasons earlier, I believe the return would have been more towards NHL ready talent than picks and prospects. Again, the once Regier allowed things to get to a certain point, his hand was forced.

The Vanek trade yeilded us a 1st, a 2nd, and Matt Moulson, who then yielded us even more assets when he Ktachuked.  That was a good Regier trade, pure value.  Too bad Darcy sucked at every other facet of GMing.

[TrueBlueGED]

I'm just gonna say that if McEichel truly is Murray's goal, he'd be doing more roster manipulation than he is. The goal is top picks and elite talent with McEichel the ideal outcome...but Murray's actions do not point to it being the ultimate goal.

[darksabre]

I'm just gonna say that if McEichel truly is Murray's goal, he'd be doing more roster manipulation than he is. The goal is top picks and elite talent with McEichel the ideal outcome...but Murray's actions do not point to it being the ultimate goal.

 

If picking 3rd overall was the goal then you'd be right. But it's not and you're not. 

[TrueBlueGED]

If picking 3rd overall was the goal then you'd be right. But it's not and you're not.

If McEichel were the ONLY goal then Larsson and Ristolainen would not be on the roster. Murray can do more than he has to go for last place. Why hasn't he? He's either not as concerned with it as many think he is or he's grossly incompetent.

[K8prisoner]

can only trust on old vet  and one goakie... thats the dilemna..   all these guys believe they are better and can help team more than mcike// as would you nand i... the poll is a disgrace and should be taken down as it limits the teams ability to out duel the darcy scum of the earth where these horrific practices are occurring  more likely than not just the patriots cheat... dont debase yourszelves.. have som faith, murray has done all the he could while not trying to lose and give guys like fkynn a chance at a hockey career ,  .. Darcy should be gang raped (like he did to a stanley cup lineup)  or made to publicallyl apologize for making us two centers down by letting both briere and drury leave town over a little money after they made a great playoff run and had chemistry .... lets not shame our great city anymore with open talk of illegal tampering or cheating... go nuffalo in 2016

[Taro T]

I'm just gonna say that if McEichel truly is Murray's goal, he'd be doing more roster manipulation than he is. The goal is top picks and elite talent with McEichel the ideal outcome...but Murray's actions do not point to it being the ultimate goal.

He's brought in Gorges, Gionta, and Moulson. He also started the year with 2 reasonably good goalies. None of those moves scream out "30th."

[darksabre]

If McEichel were the ONLY goal then Larsson and Ristolainen would not be on the roster. Murray can do more than he has to go for last place. Why hasn't he? He's either not as concerned with it as many think he is or he's grossly incompetent.

 

You're arguing an absurd extreme and you know it. 

[Assquatch]

I think if we started melting the ice now, that would be good. Sure Arizona could do the same before the Sabres game there but I'll take the split.

 

Rule 66 – Forfeit of Game

66.1 Forfeit of Game - In the event of failure by a Club to comply with a provision of the League constitution, by-laws, resolutions, rules or regulations affecting the playing of a game, the Referee shall, if so directed by the Commissioner or his designee, refuse to permit the game to proceed until the offending Club comes into compliance with such provision.

Should the offending club persist in its refusal to come into compliance, the Referee shall, with the prior approval of the Commissioner or his designee, declare the game forfeited and the non-offending Club the winner. Should the Referee declare the game forfeited because both Clubs have refused to comply with such a provision, the visiting Club shall be declared the winner.

If the game is declared forfeited prior to its having commenced, the score shall be recorded as 1-0 and no player shall be credited with any personal statistics.

If the game was in progress at the time it is declared forfeited, the score shall be recorded as zero for the loser and 1, or such greater number of goals that had been scored by it, for the winner; however, the players on both Clubs shall be credited with all personal statistics earned up to the time the forfeit was declared.

[TrueBlueGED]

You're arguing an absurd extreme and you know it.

I'm not the one arguing a full on tank was about one single prospect. That's an absurd extreme, that if true, would fully justify the extremity of my proposed roster moves. In fact, sending every eligible contributor down to Rochester would be the only sensible action if it was only about McDavid.