Grigorenko

[deluca67]

Grigorenko has yet to show he belongs in the NHL or even deserves another shot at this point. The last thing this franchise needs to do is force some 20 year old into the lien-up who hasn't earned the opportunity. He has had games and shifts, it's up to Grigorenko take advantage of the time he has gotten. I've seen nothing from the kid that makes me think Nolan should be giving the kid more of a chance. Grigorenko has no one to blame but himself.

 

Larsson is in a similar boat. Just because the Sabres are where they are, it shouldn't mean they should hand out playing time to those that haven't earned it.

 

I'm not a big Nolan fan, there certainly are a lot of legit criticisms when it comes to Nolan. Not using Grigorenko or Larsson correctly is not one of them, IMO.

[Doohicksie]

I couldn't disagree more.

[X. Benedict]

He's been involved in Juniors and youth hockey for pretty much all his career outside the NHL. Do you really believe this?

. I'm pretty sure even Ted Nolan wouldn't much dispute it. His method has been unvarying, overpower your opponent with effort. His approach is a blunt instrument, the game is over-coached, just get a 4th line effort from everyone on your Roster.

 

Now how you see that approach and it's potential for working over a 80+ game season is pretty much how you see Nolan.

[Patty16]

. I'm pretty sure even Ted Nolan wouldn't much dispute it. His method has been unvarying, overpower your opponent with effort. His approach is a blunt instrument, the game is over-coached, just get a 4th line effort from everyone on your Roster.

 

Now how you see that approach and it's potential for working over a 80+ game season is pretty much how you see Nolan.

 

The Forwards leading on ice time are zemgus moulson ennis gionta, stewart stafford. 

 

He didnt bury any talented guys when he was with the Isles,

 

When he won coach of the year he had a team of no talent grinders, is that his fault?  He's probably not the answer but I think you are wrong stating his philosphy is ONLY to play grinders.

 

How in the hell can you say he's over coaching from watching the game on TV? How exactly is he overcoaching?  If anything he's known for undercoaching because he doesnt even go over Xs and Os, he's a feel the game kinda coach

[X. Benedict]

The Forwards leading on ice time are zemgus moulson ennis gionta, stewart stafford. 

 

He didnt bury any talented guys when he was with the Isles,

 

When he won coach of the year he had a team of no talent grinders, is that his fault?  He's probably not the answer but I think you are wrong stating his philosphy is ONLY to play grinders.

 

How in the hell can you say he's over coaching from watching the game on TV? How exactly is he overcoaching?  If anything he's known for undercoaching because he doesnt even go over Xs and Os, he's a feel the game kinda coach

He doesn't over-coach. That's a quote from Ted Nolan. "The game today is over-coached"....that's indicative of his approach to the game. Sorry if it was unclear. 

[Patty16]

He doesn't over-coach. That's a quote from Ted Nolan. "The game today is over-coached"....that's indicative of his approach to the game. Sorry if it was unclear. 

 

That makes perfect sense.  

 

 

____

 

Again, I'm not sure TN is the answer, but he is really respected around the league, (even if personally disliked),  and the notion that he doesnt give his skill players ice time just isnt true. He does, but he really stresses effort. 

 

But I mean what's he supposed to say after every game? He can't say we just don't have the talent, so when players float around or aren't hustling it's what he has to pick on.  

 

But also look at the best teams around the league, they are flying up and down the ice too, the game is one where effort is at a premium and winning the 50/50 pucks makes all the difference. 

[LGR4GM]

The problem is Nolan only recognizes and understands 1 type of effort. 

[Patty16]

The problem is Nolan only recognizes and understands 1 type of effort. 

 

What are the other kinds of effort he isnt recognizing? 

[dudacek]

Just because the Sabres are where they are, it shouldn't mean they should hand out playing time to those that haven't earned it.

 

But they do. This is what I mean with confusing effort with results and by being one-dimensional.

Exhibits A, B, C and D: Moulson, Flynn, Meszaros and Mitchell.

 

You "earn" icetime with Teddy by being a veteran, and/or by skating hard in straight lines.

It doesn't seem to matter how effective you are, as long as you fit the profile.

And if you don't fit Teddy's profile, it doesn't matter how effective you are at other things, you're gonna sit.

Edited March 11, 2015 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

What are the other kinds of effort he isnt recognizing? 

The thinking players effort is the one I am specifically thinking of.  

But they do. This is what I mean with confusing effort with results and by being one-dimensional.

Exhibits A, B, C and D: Moulson, Flynn, Meszaros and Mitchell.

 

You "earn" icetime with Teddy by being a veteran, and/or by skating hard in straight lines.

It doesn't seem to matter how effective you are, as long as you fit the profile.

And if you don't fit Teddy's profile, it doesn't matter how effective you are at other things, you're gonna sit.

Which is why I want him nowhere near Sam Reinhart.  If Nolan was going to be the long term coaching option then they should have drafted Bennett. 

[dudacek]

 

Which is why I want him nowhere near Sam Reinhart.  If Nolan was going to be the long term coaching option then they should have drafted Bennett. 

 

Strongly agree.

[Patty16]

But they do. This is what I mean with confusing effort with results and by being one-dimensional.

Exhibits A, B, C and D: Moulson, Flynn, Meszaros and Mitchell.

 

You "earn" icetime with Teddy by being a veteran, and/or by skating hard in straight lines.

It doesn't seem to matter how effective you are, as long as you fit the profile.

And if you don't fit Teddy's profile, it doesn't matter how effective you are at other things, you're gonna sit.

 

But that's demonstrably false.  The guys producing points are getting mroe ice than those who aren't... except for Grigs, he gettings 15 mins of ice with no points and poor effort. 

 

Meszaros is getting the least amount of ice time so what do you mean? 

 

And if you want to talk about Hodson......... He's getting roughly the same amount of 5on5 time as he always has and he's producing the same as he always did there....... the diff in him is he's not scoring on the PP mostly bc the team's PP is god awful.  It's not a misuse of him, he's never been really strong 5on5.  

Edited March 11, 2015 by Patty16

[inkman]

Again, I'm not sure TN is the answer, but he is really respected around the league...

I'm not sure that's true

[That Aud Smell]

Again, I'm not sure TN is the answer, but he is really respected around the league, (even if personally disliked)

I'm not sure that's true

 

I'm with Ink.

 

On what basis would you infer that Nolan is "really respected around the league"? If anything, I'd infer that, outside of Latvia, hockey people don't think much of him.

[dudacek]

But that's demonstrably false.  The guys producing points are getting mroe ice than those who aren't... except for Grigs, he gettings 15 mins of ice with no points and poor effort. 

 

Meszaros is getting the least amount of ice time so what do you mean? 

 

And if you want to talk about Hodson......... He's getting roughly the same amount of 5on5 time as he always has and he's producing the same as he always did there....... the diff in him is he's not scoring on the PP mostly bc the team's PP is god awful.  It's not a misuse of him, he's never been really strong 5on5.

 

Demonstrably false? No one on this team is producing. Only select guys are benched or criticized for not producing.

 

When Meszaros was playing like a piece of trash at the start of the season, Teddy stuck with him. I've never heard him chastise him. Yes he was eventually benched, but he keeps giving him chances.

Matt Moulson is paid good money to score goals. He is not scoring goals. He still plays a regular shift and the power play and has never been bumped off the top two lines.

Brian Flynn and Torrey Mitchell did not produce. At all. They were given tons of ice time, in Flynn's case, even on the power play, where he has done absolutely nothing.

As much as I love him, Zemgus has sucked on the power play. One goal, a handful of assists. Yet he is thrown out there on the first unit every time.

 

Your Hodgson example actually supports my point. The guy is a proven PP producer. It's one off the few things he can contribute. Why is he not being used in that role when others, who are not producing there, are?

[JJFIVEOH]

Only on SabreSpace can people complain that a coach preaches and rewards effort.  

[qwksndmonster]

Only on SabreSpace can people complain that a coach preaches and rewards effort.  

Sabrespace is a classy internet place.  You know what Teddy says, "If you're pointing a finger at the board, three fingers are pointing back at you."

Edited March 11, 2015 by kvetch monstrovich

[Patty16]

I'm with Ink.

 

On what basis would you infer that Nolan is "really respected around the league"? If anything, I'd infer that, outside of Latvia, hockey people don't think much of him.

 

And what would be the basis of that?  

 

He was considered a respected coach when he was let go from NYI,  he earned lots of praise for the Olympics etc.   

 

He does get respect as a hockey coach, his problem is he clashes with mgt. 

[qwksndmonster]

And what would be the basis of that?  

 

He was considered a respected coach when he was let go from NYI,  he earned lots of praise for the Olympics etc.   

 

He does get respect as a hockey coach, his problem is he clashes with mgt. 

If he was a respected coach when he was let go from NYI, why was he not offered another job until the Sabres were prepared to be terrible?

[JJFIVEOH]

He doesn't over-coach. That's a quote from Ted Nolan. "The game today is over-coached"....that's indicative of his approach to the game. Sorry if it was unclear. 

 

And the league has yet to produce a significant number of quality young coaches that rely on an analytics/strategic game plan. Like the NFL, teams that look for a head coach have mostly gone back to the veteran coaches that mostly use the old school approach. Teams have assistant coaches that deal with strategy,  a head coach's responsibility is to get the players to perform. When Nolan says teams are over-coached, he's right. The teams that have gone with younger coaches make things more complex and difficult. Ever notice how after every lost you can always find at least one player that says the need to make their game more simple? It's no coincidence old school coaches are the first ones getting offered jobs over younger,  more strategic coaches.  

[Randall Flagg]

Only on SabreSpace can people complain that a coach preaches and rewards effort.  

Read what they are saying JJ. He is inconsistent with it. I don't know how many games I saw Matt Moulson float through, not get a scoring chance, not play any defense, and stay on the top line. 2 shifts in Grigo gets demoted and plays under ten minutes. He's not consistent at all. He's not rewarding effort, he's rewarding age.

[qwksndmonster]

And the league has yet to produce a significant number of quality young coaches that rely on an analytics/strategic game plan. Like the NFL, teams that look for a head coach have mostly gone back to the veteran coaches that mostly use the old school approach. Teams have assistant coaches that deal with strategy,  a head coach's responsibility is to get the players to perform. When Nolan says teams are over-coached, he's right. The teams that have gone with younger coaches make things more complex and difficult. Ever notice how after every lost you can always find at least one player that says the need to make their game more simple? It's no coincidence old school coaches are the first ones getting offered jobs over younger,  more strategic coaches.  

Wow this post is nonsense.

[Samson's Flow]

Read what they are saying JJ. He is inconsistent with it. I don't know how many games I saw Matt Moulson float through, not get a scoring chance, not play any defense, and stay on the top line. 2 shifts in Grigo gets demoted and plays under ten minutes. He's not consistent at all. He's not rewarding effort, he's rewarding age.

I think the arguement comes down to the appearance that Nolan has a strong bias for a certain number of players on this year's squad, and said bias shows in some odd player usage decisions.

 

If you are in the 'Ted Nolan player's club' you get all the ice time and opportunity you want (See: Zemgus, Flynn, Mitchell, Bogo). If you didn't get included in the exclusive club, you sure as schit better bust your ass on every shift and play mistake free hockey or you aren't seeing the ice. (See: Hodgson, Grigo, Zadorov).

[Patty16]

Demonstrably false? No one on this team is producing. Only select guys are benched or criticized for not producing.

 

When Meszaros was playing like a piece of trash at the start of the season, Teddy stuck with him. I've never heard him chastise him. Yes he was eventually benched, but he keeps giving him chances.

Matt Moulson is paid good money to score goals. He is not scoring goals. He still plays a regular shift and the power play and has never been bumped off the top two lines.

Brian Flynn and Torrey Mitchell did not produce. At all. They were given tons of ice time, in Flynn's case, even on the power play, where he has done absolutely nothing.

As much as I love him, Zemgus has sucked on the power play. One goal, a handful of assists. Yet he is thrown out there on the first unit every time.

 

Your Hodgson example actually supports my point. The guy is a proven PP producer. It's one off the few things he can contribute. Why is he not being used in that role when others, who are not producing there, are?

 

 

No it does not.  He's playing the only guys who produce....even if its little production.  So the guys who are producing the most, counted by points, are usually getting the most playing time. So yes its true. 

 

And Meszaros has sucked, which is why he's getting the least amount of ice.

 

Hodgson does not prove your point at all.  He's not scoring on the PP when he's playing. Thats the freaking point.  He has 1 PP point allllllll season.   His production on the PP has plummeted and thats why his scoring is down.    His numbers breakdown don't support your position at all. He's scoring less per PP min than any point in recent memory.... and that's because the PP sucks and .  We could double his PP time and his production would still be way down. 

[qwksndmonster]

No it does not.  He's playing the only guys who produce....even if its little production.  So the guys who are producing the most, counted by points, are usually getting the most playing time. So yes its true. 

 

And Meszaros has sucked, which is why he's getting the least amount of ice.

 

Hodgson does not prove your point at all.  He's not scoring on the PP when he's playing. Thats the freaking point.  He has 1 PP point allllllll season.   His production on the PP has plummeted and thats why his scoring is down.    His numbers breakdown don't support your position at all. He's scoring less per PP min than any point in recent memory.... and that's because the PP sucks and .  We could double his PP time and his production would still be way down. 

Are you really asserting that what Flynn and Mitchell were doing for us was "producing"?

 

And Hodgson isn't getting PP time.  That's the crux of Dudacek's argument.

Edited March 11, 2015 by kvetch monstrovich