Grigorenko

[TrueBlueGED]

Remember when Nolan coached the Sabres and no one had any complaints?

I do! Of course, I was also too young to know he was bad at it :p

[Doohicksie]

Not entirely apropos of this thread, but I'm tired of a coach who confuses effort with results.

 

That's precisely what you need to tank.

[JJFIVEOH]

Not entirely apropos of this thread, but I'm tired of a coach who confuses effort with results.

Grigorenko brought neither. 

[LGR4GM]

Not entirely apropos of this thread, but I'm tired of a coach who confuses effort with results.

I think Nolan will hate Sam Reinhart too because Nolan's perfect player is Zemgus.  

[qwksndmonster]

Sorry but that's why players hated Grigo when he was first up.... put on the top line despite him floating around and not producing.  

 

IF he had produced a little when he's had his chances playing on top two lines (and he has had those opps) it would be a diff story.  He's consistently failed to produce and you don't just hand players those chances time and time again when they aren't contributing.  That's not how pro sports works.  Can't keep playing him on the top lines when he's playing like an AHL or 4th line player.  He has to show something and he's not. It's that simple. 

Players hated Grigorenko?  Grigorenko was put on the top line?  I don't think either of those things ever happened.  

 

I understand that it helps teams when there's a pecking order based on what was earned, but when your team is the worst in the league, who cares that 2 lines of AHL plugs might be jealous that Grigorenko is a player with god given talent and is being developed as such?

 

I did, hence the question.

Maybe they just don't fit the system of Murray who prefers multi-dimensional players of which Grigorenko and Hodgson are not. 

To the bolded... okay?  That came out of nowhere and I still don't understand why you asked it.  I said that Nolan would have no problem with McDavid.

 

Murray has a system?  Do we know that system?  So far all I can tell is that he likes big bodies who can skate, so he's following the LA blueprint.  Grigorenko is not a one dimensional player.  Just because he's not ready for the NHL doesn't mean that he all of the sudden can't play defense.  Jeebus.

Edited March 9, 2015 by kvetch monstrovich

[Patty16]

Players hated Grigorenko?  Grigorenko was put on the top line?  I don't think either of those things ever happened.  

 

I understand that it helps teams when there's a pecking order based on what was earned, but when your team is the worst in the league, who cares that 2 lines of AHL plugs might be jealous that Grigorenko is a player with god given talent and is being developed as such?

 

To the bolded... okay?  That came out of nowhere and I still don't understand why you asked it.  I said that Nolan would have no problem with McDavid.

 

Murray has a system?  Do we know that system?  So far all I can tell is that he likes big bodies who can skate, so he's following the LA blueprint.  Grigorenko is not a one dimensional player.  Just because he's not ready for the NHL doesn't mean that he all of the sudden can't play defense.  Jeebus.

 

 

Yes- he rubbed many vets the wrong way with his attitude and lack of work ethic.  He's had top line minutes and even spent time on the PP in other years.  There's an analytics site that shows his most common linemates are mostly top 6 forwards. I believe he's played the most with Stewart this year.Those things did happen.  To say he hasnt had his chances would be wrong.  

Edited March 9, 2015 by Patty16

[qwksndmonster]

Yes- he rubbed many vets the wrong way with his attitude and lack of work ethic.  He's had top line minutes and even spent time on the PP in other years.  There's an analytics site that shows his most common linemates are mostly top 6 forwards. Those things did happen.  To say he hasnt had his chances would be wrong.  

Can you share the site?  I don't remember Grigorenko ever getting a fair shake.

Can you also link an article where it was reported that he rubbed the vets the wrong way?

[Patty16]

Can you share the site?  I don't remember Grigorenko ever getting a fair shake.

Can you also link an article where it was reported that he rubbed the vets the wrong way?

 

I believe it was hockey analysis .com or something similar.  

 

And I'll look for the article.  It was a year or so ago that he was given a spot on the team wihtout earning it, Hamilton reported it bothered guys in the room.  

[dudacek]

I remember Hamilton making a big deal out of Grigorenko's entitlement and free ride on to the roster rubbing the vets the wrong way in his rookie season.

 

I haven't heard about that this year, or last, except as a recycled story.

It should be pointed out only about five or six players are still around from that time.

Edited March 9, 2015 by dudacek

[mjd1001]

Is Nolan a good coach? I don't think we have to over complicate this.  In some situations he is, some he isn't. Period.

 

The question then becomes when is he good?  He would seem to be a great coach for a team where every player has a similar skill set, with no bad players and no superstars. He seems to want to try to treat everyone equally, no matter what the situation.  I think he would be a fine coach for a team like Calgary, or LA, or maybe even Montreal.  But, as Buffalo looks to add (and/or integrate) high end talent, I'm not so sure he is a good fit with this team going forward.

[dudacek]

Nolan's role was to keep this team working hard and the room from melting down in this Panzer season.

He's done a passable job, but he's too one-dimensional to move this team forward.

[darksabre]

That Ted Nolan, remember how he never played Lafontaine on the top line?

[JJFIVEOH]

Players hated Grigorenko?  Grigorenko was put on the top line?  I don't think either of those things ever happened.  

 

I understand that it helps teams when there's a pecking order based on what was earned, but when your team is the worst in the league, who cares that 2 lines of AHL plugs might be jealous that Grigorenko is a player with god given talent and is being developed as such?

 

To the bolded... okay?  That came out of nowhere and I still don't understand why you asked it.  I said that Nolan would have no problem with McDavid.

 

Murray has a system?  Do we know that system?  So far all I can tell is that he likes big bodies who can skate, so he's following the LA blueprint.  Grigorenko is not a one dimensional player.  Just because he's not ready for the NHL doesn't mean that he all of the sudden can't play defense.  Jeebus.

But you DID claim that Nolan likes to put "plugs" in place of players that want to succeed in defense of a poster that said Nolan should not be coaching an elite talent............... did you not?

 

Grigorenko is not a multi-dimensional player, at this point he's not even a uni-dimensional player. And it's not Nolan's fault. It's not Nolan's fault Hodgson is unproductive either. Hodgson was the leading scorer last year under Nolan. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's rather ridiculous to say a coach is successful with marginal players but unsuccessful with talented players. Especially when there is absolutely nothing to base it on. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS- Can we PLEASE get rid of merged posts? I hate making separate comments and have them show up on one post when it doesn't apply to the person I responded to. Is post ###### really that big of an issue?

Edited March 9, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[qwksndmonster]

:sick:  :sick:  :sick:

 

 

Nolan is the nobody whisperer.  If there's a player with NHL talent that needs to be put in a position to succeed, he seems to prefer putting a plug in his place, even though the ceiling of that move is a lot lower.  Obviously, any coach could handle McDavid.  By all accounts he's an incredibly hard worker.

This is what I said.  If you can't make sense of that, I don't know what to say.

 

So Hodgson just fell off the table and the coach, who hates him, had nothing to do with it?  I'm not absolving Hodgson of blame, but I'm positive he'll bounce back next year under a different coach.

[TrueBlueGED]

That Ted Nolan, remember how he never played Lafontaine on the top line?

I don't think Nolan had some anti-skill bias when the skilled player is already established. But I think his actions demonstrate he has no interest in developing skilled players--skill players often look lackadaisical when they're not producing, or are slow on the uptake with learning how to play without the puck--and Nolan appears to prefer to bench these players rather than develop them.

[JJFIVEOH]

This is what I said.  If you can't make sense of that, I don't know what to say.

 

So Hodgson just fell off the table and the coach, who hates him, had nothing to do with it?  I'm not absolving Hodgson of blame, but I'm positive he'll bounce back next year under a different coach.

It's common knowledge around the league that Nolan is famous for teaching young talent and motivating players. Coaches say it, hockey experts say it, players say it............ No offense to your knowledge on hockey, but I'm going to trust what they say. Hodgson is notorious (based on what hockey experts say) for being uncoachable. I'll stick with the notion that Nolan is not the problem.

 

You and I both have no idea how Nolan will pan out as a coach with talent. But in general if a coach is good with a marginal team chances are he will be better with a good team. 

[Huckleberry]

I think he is gone in the offseason though, Murray will trade him for sure.

There simply isn't room on this roster for him if we got Cojack - Reinhart - Girgensons - Larsson down the middle.

 

I expect Murray to use him as trade bait, just wish Nolan would should up about him, he is hurting his market value.

[IKnowPhysics]

We could give him a look at wing.  If he doesn't play well defensively, we might be able to get him moving forward there.  Sort of like Hodgson.  I think if the coaching staff hasn't decided to try that yet, they haven't yet given up on him at center.  And if they haven't given up him at center yet, they probably still see that he's  got some potential and developing to do.

 

I mean, this is why we draft centers: they're versatile.

 

The problem is that they've got to decide that he's worth a qualifying offer as an RFA.  I think they will qualify him, but they might do some cursing at Regier, who allowed a year of his ELC to be burned early, without well-supporting his development that year.

[rickshaw]

Grigs was brought into the league too young and it hurt him being on a really crappy team too. Now he's all messed up in the head, i'm quite sure and his game has never been given a real chance. I'd like to see him on this team with some talent around him and then see what he's like. 

He's no Mogilny, but imagine if the team gave up on Almo too early. That 76 goal season would never have happened. He got to play with #16 so that obviously helped but Mogilny wasn't that great when he first started. 

 

I hope Grigs can make the team and prove he's a good player. Time will tell. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by rickshaw

[darksabre]

I don't think Nolan had some anti-skill bias when the skilled player is already established. But I think his actions demonstrate he has no interest in developing skilled players--skill players often look lackadaisical when they're not producing, or are slow on the uptake with learning how to play without the puck--and Nolan appears to prefer to bench these players rather than develop them.

So you're advocating for the Edmonton approach then?

[dudacek]

It's common knowledge around the league that Nolan is famous for teaching young talent.

 

Ummm... Who says this? Who are the young talents Nolan has developed?

 

I have no problem with Grigorenko being sent down if his attitude was bad or his effort wasn't there.

I didn't see that Friday, but the coach is a helluvalot closer to the action than I am.

 

I don't have any problem with a tough love strategy, most of the time i like it.

I just don't think Teddy brings anything else to the table.

[JJFIVEOH]

Ummm... Who says this? Who are the young talents Nolan has developed?

 

I have no problem with Grigorenko being sent down if his attitude was bad or his effort wasn't there.

I didn't see that Friday, but the coach is a helluvalot closer to the action than I am.

 

I don't have any problem with a tough love strategy, most of the time i like it.

I just don't think Teddy brings anything else to the table.

If you're looking for examples, I have none. I don't know the complete extent of his career between gigs with the Sabres. But, I hear the praise mentioned often from opposing teams' commentators, to the media, to other coaches and from players themselves. Any team that would be this bad in consecutive years regardless of talent would be talked about getting fired on a daily basis. Yet this isn't happening because everybody knows it's not his fault. 

 

What else should he bring to the table? Is there something glaringly obvious that I happen to be missing that makes him unqualified to be the coach moving forward?

[Weave]

We could give him a look at wing.  If he doesn't play well defensively, we might be able to get him moving forward there.  Sort of like Hodgson.  I think if the coaching staff hasn't decided to try that yet, they haven't yet given up on him at center.  And if they haven't given up him at center yet, they probably still see that he's  got some potential and developing to do.

 

I mean, this is why we draft centers: they're versatile.

 

The problem is that they've got to decide that he's worth a qualifying offer as an RFA.  I think they will qualify him, but they might do some cursing at Regier, who allowed a year of his ELC to be burned early, without well-supporting his development that year.

 

There is nothing wrong with his defense.

[TrueBlueGED]

So you're advocating for the Edmonton approach then?

I believe you're the one who campaigned to hand the team over to the kids :p

 

Seriously though, I don't see why there can't be some happy medium. Nolan could give Larsson and Grigorenko opportunities without running a line of Larsson-Grigorenko-Carrier for 20 minutes per game.

[darksabre]

I believe you're the one who campaigned to hand the team over to the kids :p

 

Seriously though, I don't see why there can't be some happy medium. Nolan could give Larsson and Grigorenko opportunities without running a line of Larsson-Grigorenko-Carrier for 20 minutes per game.

I think the problem is there's really no point right now. Some might see this part of the season as an opportunity to play a guy like Grigorenko on the top line because screw it. I don't think the players see it that way. You can't look at these guys and say "eh, season's over so I'm just gonna let the kids get pounded for a month."