Grigorenko

[SabresFanInRochester]

Yea that's been his issue, he doesn't fight for pucks or seem hungry out there. 

I believe I was watching the Ottawa game, and I watched Grigorenko go behind the net and fight for a puck. The Sabres were able to maintain possession for another pass or two based on his effort. It did not gain attention and was not mentioned by the broadcast because nothing resulted out of his play. I think he is capable of that, and just as I am singling out one specific example, maybe the coaches are doing the same. FInding instances when he didn't win battles. However, if I were fighting for a puck, and feeding it to Matt Ellis, who watches it bounce off his stick, or in turn gives the puck away, I don't know how hard I would be fighting for it either.

 

I am a Grigorenko fan. I don't think he is 100% NHL ready, but I don't think you can judge him by the cast of characters he has on his line. I believe playing in the NHL right now gives him a taste for the speed and level of talent he will face, but as a Grigorenko hopeful, I would rather see him in Rochester instead of playing 6 minutes on a checking line, because he has to prove his effort. This is why I am tired of Ted Nolan and his "compete" approach. 

[qwksndmonster]

SFiR, Patty correctly pointed out to me in the roster notes thread that Grigo has been getting ~15 minutes TOI per game.  So while it's not ideal, it's not Hodgson bad.

[Doohicksie]

I see it the same way as SFiR.  I've noticed his game pick up with each trip to the big club.  Soon the Sabres will be much deeper at center.  If he wants to be in the NHL he's going to have ot compete for a job.  Hopefully that will keep the "coast" out of his game.

[Patty16]

I believe I was watching the Ottawa game, and I watched Grigorenko go behind the net and fight for a puck. The Sabres were able to maintain possession for another pass or two based on his effort. It did not gain attention and was not mentioned by the broadcast because nothing resulted out of his play. I think he is capable of that, and just as I am singling out one specific example, maybe the coaches are doing the same. FInding instances when he didn't win battles. However, if I were fighting for a puck, and feeding it to Matt Ellis, who watches it bounce off his stick, or in turn gives the puck away, I don't know how hard I would be fighting for it either.

 

I am a Grigorenko fan. I don't think he is 100% NHL ready, but I don't think you can judge him by the cast of characters he has on his line. I believe playing in the NHL right now gives him a taste for the speed and level of talent he will face, but as a Grigorenko hopeful, I would rather see him in Rochester instead of playing 6 minutes on a checking line, because he has to prove his effort. This is why I am tired of Ted Nolan and his "compete" approach. 

 

Yea but that example isnt his consistent play.  He surely does that a few times a game, but he lacks effort too many other times.  He hasn't produced enough chances when he's been with better linemates

 

He's also avg 15 mins a game,  if he was ready he would be generating at least something even with poor linemates.  

 

Way too many people are finding excuses for him, he's not ready yet. 

[rickshaw]

Teddy is gone in 16 games. I'd be shocked if he weren't fired. No way you want Nolan "teaching" McDavid how to play hockey. Yikes.

Next coach, has a Cup and knows all about bringing along a Superstar or two. His name, Dan Bylsma.

[SabresFanInRochester]

SFiR, Patty correctly pointed out to me in the roster notes thread that Grigo has been getting ~15 minutes TOI per game.  So while it's not ideal, it's not Hodgson bad.

Thank you for the clarification. I guess it's good he got the minutes. But, I am happy to see him in Rochester. Let him try to come back up next year and prove himself to a new coach, with a clean slate.

Yea but that example isnt his consistent play.  He surely does that a few times a game, but he lacks effort too many other times.  He hasn't produced enough chances when he's been with better linemates

 

He's also avg 15 mins a game,  if he was ready he would be generating at least something even with poor linemates.  

 

Way too many people are finding excuses for him, he's not ready yet. 

Enlighten me to who these players are.

[Patty16]

I see it the same way as SFiR.  I've noticed his game pick up with each trip to the big club.  Soon the Sabres will be much deeper at center.  If he wants to be in the NHL he's going to have ot compete for a job.  Hopefully that will keep the "coast" out of his game.

 

I hope so too, he has a high ceiling IMO.  

 

He's been getinng lots of ice and just hasnt been able to tput it together yet.  He hasn't had the ideal path to be sure, but he's got to earn his way back in.  

Thank you for the clarification. I guess it's good he got the minutes. But, I am happy to see him in Rochester. Let him try to come back up next year and prove himself to a new coach, with a clean slate.

Enlighten me to who these players are.

 

I agree

 

Thank you for the clarification. I guess it's good he got the minutes. But, I am happy to see him in Rochester. Let him try to come back up next year and prove himself to a new coach, with a clean slate.

Enlighten me to who these players are.

 

 

Those players? last game it was 12 and 82, the second line.  You can't keep blaming his linemates for his almost non existent production.  if Phil Varone can outscore him playing on the bottom lines, Grigo should be able to as well.   

[JJFIVEOH]

Teddy is gone in 16 games. I'd be shocked if he weren't fired. No way you want Nolan "teaching" McDavid how to play hockey. Yikes.

Next coach, has a Cup and knows all about bringing along a Superstar or two. His name, Dan Bylsma.

What do you have to base that on?

 

Malkin and Crosby had already played 2-3 seasons before Bylsma got there. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[Patty16]

What do you have to base that on?

 

Im not sure, there's a feeling that Nolan has no idea how to "teach" someone to be goal scorer. 

[qwksndmonster]

Teddy is gone in 16 games. I'd be shocked if he weren't fired. No way you want Nolan "teaching" McDavid how to play hockey. Yikes.

Next coach, has a Cup and knows all about bringing along a Superstar or two. His name, Dan Bylsma.

:sick:  :sick:  :sick:

 

 

What do you have to base that on?

Nolan is the nobody whisperer.  If there's a player with NHL talent that needs to be put in a position to succeed, he seems to prefer putting a plug in his place, even though the ceiling of that move is a lot lower.  Obviously, any coach could handle McDavid.  By all accounts he's an incredibly hard worker.

Edited March 9, 2015 by kvetch monstrovich

[JJFIVEOH]

:sick:  :sick:  :sick:

 

 

Nolan is the nobody whisperer.  If there's a player with NHL talent that needs to be put in a position to succeed, he seems to prefer putting a plug in his place, even though the ceiling of that move is a lot lower.  Obviously, any coach could handle McDavid.  By all accounts he's an incredibly hard worker.

When has he had elite NHL talent to deal with? Seems to me the few Sabres on the roster with some talent get significant playing time. I don't recall Stewart, Ennis, Moulson, Myers, Bogosian, Gionta and Gorges getting replaced by "plugs". 

[SabresFanInRochester]

I hope so too, he has a high ceiling IMO.  

 

He's been getinng lots of ice and just hasnt been able to tput it together yet.  He hasn't had the ideal path to be sure, but he's got to earn his way back in.  

 

I agree

 

 

 

Those players? last game it was 12 and 82, the second line.  You can't keep blaming his linemates for his almost non existent production.  if Phil Varone can outscore him playing on the bottom lines, Grigo should be able to as well.   

If Kaleta scores a goal and Moulson is left off the score sheet, it doesn't mean Kaleta earned the right to be on the top line. I just hate that every player has to be Hecht. Fight for the puck and win battles and we'll find a place for you as long as you keep trying. But, if you have talent and don't finish checks, you're in the doghouse.

 

I think there is a place for a skilled player on the team who doesn't have to worry about doing the dirty work. Maybe I am a too much a fan of old-school hockey when you had goons who protected your stars because your stars were just supposed to go make plays. Do you think those goons felt envious that their gifted teammates got the ice team and attention when they scored the game winning goals? I like the different roles played by players.

Edited March 9, 2015 by SabresFanInRochester

[darksabre]

Remember when Nolan coached the Sabres and no one had any complaints?

[SabresFanInRochester]

Remember when Nolan coached the Sabres and no one had any complaints?

Hasek did.

Edited March 9, 2015 by SabresFanInRochester

[Patty16]

If Kaleta scores a goal and Moulson is left off the score sheet, it doesn't mean Kaleta earned the right to be on the top line. I just hate that every player has to be Hecht. Fight for the puck and win battles and we'll find a place for you as long as you keep trying. But, if you have talent and don't finish checks, you're in the doghouse.

 

I think there is a place for a skilled player on the team who doesn't have to worry about doing the dirty work. Maybe I am a too much a fan of old-school hockey when you had goons who protected your stars because your stars were just supposed to go make plays. Do you think those goons felt envious that their gifted teammates got the ice team and attention when they scored the game winning goals I like the different roles played by players.

 

Yea its not like that anymore, top players hustle almost every shift and fight to be around the puck,  

 

Your scenario doesn't hold up tho, Grigo isnt doing anything you mention with any regularity, he's not getting loose pucks and/or not scoring points. THATS why he isnt staying around.  

 

You can't evaluate his play as an either or proposition, it's not.  He's not ready yet and we can blame TN his linemates or whoever but he would be here if he was ready.  

[qwksndmonster]

When has he had elite NHL talent to deal with? Seems to me the few Sabres on the roster with some talent get significant playing time. I don't recall Stewart, Ennis, Moulson, Myers, Bogosian, Gionta and Gorges getting replaced by "plugs". 

I was referring specifically to players that need to be put in a position to succeed.  ie Hodgson, Grigorenko.  I also never said a single thing about elite NHL talent.

Yea its not like that anymore, top players hustle almost every shift and fight to be around the puck,  

 

Your scenario doesn't hold up tho, Grigo isnt doing anything you mention with any regularity, he's not getting loose pucks and/or not scoring points. THATS why he isnt staying around.  

 

You can't evaluate his play as an either or proposition, it's not.  He's not ready yet and we can blame TN his linemates or whoever but he would be here if he was ready.  

If he's going to be here, put him in a position to succeed.  Not every player is the same.  Nolan seems unable to get anything out of players that don't fit his mantra.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

GRIGORENKO WILL BE FINE!!

[Patty16]

I was referring specifically to players that need to be put in a position to succeed.  ie Hodgson, Grigorenko.  I also never said a single thing about elite NHL talent.

If he's going to be here, put him in a position to succeed.  Not every player is the same.  Nolan seems unable to get anything out of players that don't fit his mantra.

 

Sorry but that's why players hated Grigo when he was first up.... put on the top line despite him floating around and not producing.  

 

IF he had produced a little when he's had his chances playing on top two lines (and he has had those opps) it would be a diff story.  He's consistently failed to produce and you don't just hand players those chances time and time again when they aren't contributing.  That's not how pro sports works.  Can't keep playing him on the top lines when he's playing like an AHL or 4th line player.  He has to show something and he's not. It's that simple. 

[SabresFanInRochester]

Yea its not like that anymore, top players hustle almost every shift and fight to be around the puck,  

 

Your scenario doesn't hold up tho, Grigo isnt doing anything you mention with any regularity, he's not getting loose pucks and/or not scoring points. THATS why he isnt staying around.  

 

You can't evaluate his play as an either or proposition, it's not.  He's not ready yet and we can blame TN his linemates or whoever but he would be here if he was ready.  

I agree that's Grigorenko is not ready, and I stated that above. But I don't think he is being put into a position to develop or succeed with the current lineup and coaching staff. I think he should be in Rochester until August 2015.

 

You must be referring to Phil Kessel, and I am sure there are plenty of other examples of skill guys who lack fight for the puck. I say it in jest, because to your point, Grigorenko is not producing, so I cannot put him in that light. Right or wrong, it is a style of hockey that most Russians get blasted for. Shouldn't GM's and scouts see that before they draft a Russian? 

[LGR4GM]

GRIGORENKO WILL BE FINE!!

Grigorenko will be packaged in the offseason for a either a C or a RW. 

[Patty16]

I agree that's Grigorenko is not ready, and I stated that above. But I don't think he is being put into a position to develop or succeed with the current lineup and coaching staff. I think he should be in Rochester until August 2015.

 

You must be referring to Phil Kessel, and I am sure there are plenty of other examples of skill guys who lack fight for the puck. I say it in jest, because to your point, Grigorenko is not producing, so I cannot put him in that light. Right or wrong, it is a style of hockey that most Russians get blasted for. Shouldn't GM's and scouts see that before they draft a Russian? 

 

 

True, Kessel takes shifts off but scores, and he does hustle quite a bit at times.  Grig can't skate like him but that's another point. I totally agree Grig needs to stay down, it's not like he's lighting it up down there but I hear he has been playing well. 

 

Many teams do have those reservations about russians, I mean look at 51, missing team events.   Russians are trying hard to fight those notions by playing juniors over here.  

[SabresFanInRochester]

True, Kessel takes shifts off but scores, and he does hustle quite a bit at times.  Grig can't skate like him but that's another point. I totally agree Grig needs to stay down, it's not like he's lighting it up down there but I hear he has been playing well. 

 

Many teams do have those reservations about russians, I mean look at 51, missing team events.   Russians are trying hard to fight those notions by playing juniors over here.  

Good points. Good debate. Just don't tell me you're against the tank. I need a break.

[Patty16]

Good points. Good debate. Just don't tell me you're against the tank. I need a break.

 

I have no complaints about how GMTM has put this team together. I really like his strategy. 

[JJFIVEOH]

I was referring specifically to players that need to be put in a position to succeed.  ie Hodgson, Grigorenko.  I also never said a single thing about elite NHL talent.

 

I did, hence the question.

 

If he's going to be here, put him in a position to succeed.  Not every player is the same.  Nolan seems unable to get anything out of players that don't fit his mantra.

Maybe they just don't fit the system of Murray who prefers multi-dimensional players of which Grigorenko and Hodgson are not. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[dudacek]

Not entirely apropos of this thread, but I'm tired of a coach who confuses effort with results.