Grigorenko

[JJFIVEOH]

Media? Naa... Just how I see it. A coach not cooperating with his GM for a third stint. I'm not cheering for this. It's just how I see it. Hell I could be wrong, but I'm thinking I'm right on this one. What GM in his right mind would hire Nolan?

 

I guess you don't see it that way....and that's fine. Time will tell.

Fair enough. I just see the speculation as manufactured drama. 

Kind of amusing coming from the guy who about had a mental breakdown about Murray's trades not too long ago.

To the bold: why would he dump him now? It's not like he's going to conduct a full search when some of the candidates he'd probably like to talk to are currently employed by playoff teams. Maybe he wants to wait to see if somebody gets canned. There's really just very little to be gained from firing him now. It's sort of like saying we're going to re-sign Meszaros because if we didn't want him around we'd have cut him by now.

If by mental breakdown you mean a handful of comments within one day's span....... then OK. I hate to see what you call the last couple of weeks of whipping Nolan. Or the season-long relentless tank talk.

 

The speculation on here is that Murray has his coach picked. If Nolan is making decisions that lead some to believe won't let this team finish dead last, and a new coach is coming in (unless it's Babcock) why not let him take over to see what he has to work with next year? 

 

I fail to see what that has to do with Grigorenko. 

[bunomatic]

Its all Teds fault. The big meany.

 

For all we know as fans Grigorenko floated through another practice. Anyone go to the morning skate ? It would be interesting to see all sides to this ' conspiracy ' and not just game action. For those that have made up their minds on Ted Nolan nothing will change the perception. I didn't watch the game I heard the audio so its hard to judge Grigs effort in 8 minutes of icetime. Did he do something noteworthy in the time he was given ? As I've mentioned before Nolan wants 100% effort in practice too so if Grigs went through the motions in the morning skate that may be a factor. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by bunomatic

[TrueBlueGED]

Fair enough. I just see the speculation as manufactured drama.

 

If by mental breakdown you mean a handful of comments within one day's span....... then OK. I hate to see what you call the last couple of weeks of whipping Nolan. Or the season-long relentless tank talk.

 

The speculation on here is that Murray has his coach picked. If Nolan is making decisions that lead some to believe won't let this team finish dead last, and a new coach is coming in (unless it's Babcock) why not let him take over to see what he has to work with next year?

 

I fail to see what that has to do with Grigorenko.

You said you were done with the team for the year and basically quitting as a fan because you disagreed with the moves. But by the logic of your defense of Nolan, you should have just sat there saying "well there's a reason Murray is GM and not me, so I can't get mad."

 

As to why Nolan isn't fired yet, the potential reasons are fairly straightforward. Either he wants Babcock or he doesn't have a name and wants to interview team assistants. Do you really think LA is going to let their assistant interview for our job and bounce just before the playoffs to take the job? Firing Nolan would create an immediate hole that wouldn't get filled with a permanent replacement...and if Murray thinks Nolan is so bad he's helping the team lose, that's all the more reason to keep him around.

[JJFIVEOH]

You said you were done with the team for the year and basically quitting as a fan because you disagreed with the moves. But by the logic of your defense of Nolan, you should have just sat there saying "well there's a reason Murray is GM and not me, so I can't get mad."

 

As to why Nolan isn't fired yet, the potential reasons are fairly straightforward. Either he wants Babcock or he doesn't have a name and wants to interview team assistants. Do you really think LA is going to let their assistant interview for our job and bounce just before the playoffs to take the job? Firing Nolan would create an immediate hole that wouldn't get filled with a permanent replacement...and if Murray thinks Nolan is so bad he's helping the team lose, that's all the more reason to keep him around.

That's not quite what I said, but spin it however you want to fit your narrative.

 

As far as the trade, I commented on it that day and haven't said a word about it since. And according to this board, Nolan keeps making decisions that help this team win (not my words)........ not lose. 

[dudacek]

JJ, what do you think is more prudent at this point of the season for the long-term interests of the Sabres:

Keeping Grigoreko on a short leash and stapling him to bench at the first sign of "needing to do more"?

Or building his confidence (and his value as an asset) by giving him a regular shift in scenarios where he can succeed and helping him learn from his mistakes?

[LGR4GM]

I am not goin to step in this ######, but I want to clarify my own position.  My issue with Nolan is how he treats players that get on his bad side.  I worry because young players are more likely to cross him because they will ###### up.  Grigorenko is in Nolan's doghouse and I don't believe there is much he can to to get out.  If Nolan treats some of the talent we have coming like that, it will stunt their growth.  You will always learn more from a mistake.  Grigorenko at this stage can make 0 mistakes and the problem I have is Nolan is reminding him and the media about that.  Seeing the way he plays in Rochester and then the way he plays in Buffalo, Grigs has quit in some ways on Nolan.  Now I will not say that is his fault or Nolan's but again my concern going forward is Nolan's ability to handle young talented players.  Will he build them up or tear them down? Will he stay loyal to aging vets because he likes them?  These are my concerns.  I think they are legitimate.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Ligerovich 4GM

[Marvelo]

I am not goin to step in this ######, but I want to clarify my own position.  My issue with Nolan is how he treats players that get on his bad side.  I worry because young players are more likely to cross him because they will ###### up.  Grigorenko is in Nolan's doghouse and I don't believe there is much he can to to get out.  If Nolan treats some of the talent we have coming like that, it will stunt their growth.  You will always learn more from a mistake.  Grigorenko at this stage can make 0 mistakes and the problem I have is Nolan is reminding him and the media about that.  Seeing the way he plays in Rochester and then the way he plays in Buffalo, Grigs has quit in some ways on Nolan.  Now I will not say that is his fault or Nolan's but again my concern going forward is Nolan's ability to handle young talented players.  Will he build them up or tear them down? Will he stay loyal to aging vets because he likes them?  These are my concerns.  I think they are legitimate.

 

You're right. Nolan shouldn't throw young players under the bus, especially to the media. There's futures and confidence at stake here. But as you see with Myers and Stafford, surrounding the player with much better players who work as a team under a good coach and a good system makes all the difference. 

 

However I have not seen him play either in practices or games at the NHL level so I can't judge what's really happening. If he is giving a half-hearted effort in practice, I think this gives Nolan the right to be steamed, although I don't like what Nolan says about him to the press.

 

It appears GM and coach aren't on the same page about Grigorenko and that isn't the only thing they don't see eye to eye on. Something's gotta give in the offseason. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by 716

[X. Benedict]

I am not goin to step in this ######, but I want to clarify my own position.  My issue with Nolan is how he treats players that get on his bad side.  I worry because young players are more likely to cross him because they will ###### up.  Grigorenko is in Nolan's doghouse and I don't believe there is much he can to to get out.  If Nolan treats some of the talent we have coming like that, it will stunt their growth.  You will always learn more from a mistake.  Grigorenko at this stage can make 0 mistakes and the problem I have is Nolan is reminding him and the media about that.  Seeing the way he plays in Rochester and then the way he plays in Buffalo, Grigs has quit in some ways on Nolan.  Now I will not say that is his fault or Nolan's but again my concern going forward is Nolan's ability to handle young talented players.  Will he build them up or tear them down? Will he stay loyal to aging vets because he likes them?  These are my concerns.  I think they are legitimate.

It was the same thing with Snow on the Island....Nolan preferred grissly vets and plumbers, Snow needed to see youngsters develop, so they had an impasse. This seems to be repeating....I'm sure Murray didn't recall Grigorenko for 8 min on 4th line duty. It looks like Whatever asset Hackett might will also get burned, There's an obvious disconnect organizationally.

 

I did see Grigorenko win a draw cleanly that Weber couldn't handle in the offensive zone...what the hell is Weber doing with that offensive zone start? What coach in the league gives Weber that start? You think Murray likes that? BS coaching move. This stuff happens every night. I'm not blaming Webber either.

 

Rolston wouldn't have done it. Why does Nolan? Go out there And spark us Webby.....get your 2nd of the year! Stupid and persistent stuff like this is driving me nuts.

[Taro T]

It was the same thing with Snow on the Island....Nolan preferred grissly vets and plumbers, Snow needed to see youngsters develop, so they had an impasse. This seems to be repeating....I'm sure Murray didn't recall Grigorenko for 8 min on 4th line duty. It looks like Whatever asset Hackett might will also get burned, There's an obvious disconnect organizationally.

 

I did see Grigorenko win a draw cleanly that Weber couldn't handle in the offensive zone...what the hell is Weber doing with that offensive zone start? What coach in the league gives Weber that start? You think Murray likes that? BS coaching move. This stuff happens every night. I'm not blaming Webber either.

 

Rolston wouldn't have done it. Why does Nolan? Go out there And spark us Webby.....get your 2nd of the year! Stupid and persistent stuff like this is driving me nuts.

That is a big part of the reason why I expect we'll get the answer to PA's Q about whether TM wants to miss the playoffs next year by seeing if TN is back. (I don't expect he will be, and I don't expect that TM WANTS to miss the playoffs next year, btw.) If Teddy is back, then there may be merit to the argument that TM would like another high draft pick next year and the winning is targeted for the following season. If Teddy is gone, TM is likely trying to get the team to improve ASAP and the comment about having a chance to win next year's lottery would appear to be misstated.

[tom webster]

That is a big part of the reason why I expect we'll get the answer to PA's Q about whether TM wants to miss the playoffs next year by seeing if TN is back. (I don't expect he will be, and I don't expect that TM WANTS to miss the playoffs next year, btw.) If Teddy is back, then there may be merit to the argument that TM would like another high draft pick next year and the winning is targeted for the following season. If Teddy is gone, TM is likely trying to get the team to improve ASAP and the comment about having a chance to win next year's lottery would appear to be misstated.

I had no desire to read the tin foil hat thread but hopefully someone pointed out that TM was tweaking the nose of the establishment. Clearly believing that the worst team should get the first pick he made light of the fact that if he finishes short of the playoffs he would love to win the lottery that starting next year will allow the 17th best team to move up to one of those three top spots.

[Taro T]

I had no desire to read the tin foil hat thread but hopefully someone pointed out that TM was tweaking the nose of the establishment. Clearly believing that the worst team should get the first pick he made light of the fact that if he finishes short of the playoffs he would love to win the lottery that starting next year will allow the 17th best team to move up to one of those three top spots.

Pretty sure that was mentioned.

[bunomatic]

I had no desire to read the tin foil hat thread but hopefully someone pointed out that TM was tweaking the nose of the establishment. Clearly believing that the worst team should get the first pick he made light of the fact that if he finishes short of the playoffs he would love to win the lottery that starting next year will allow the 17th best team to move up to one of those three top spots.

Ah. I see what he did there. Makes sense and it would be a great way to thumb his nose at the league.

[JJFIVEOH]

JJ, what do you think is more prudent at this point of the season for the long-term interests of the Sabres:

Keeping Grigoreko on a short leash and stapling him to bench at the first sign of "needing to do more"?

Or building his confidence (and his value as an asset) by giving him a regular shift in scenarios where he can succeed and helping him learn from his mistakes?

Nolan has worked with young players for years. There's a reason why he's oft chosen to do so. I don't think he would be in those positions if he didn't know what he was doing. I don't think a group of forum fans know more than the people that hire Nolan, and those who speak highly of him. With that said, I'm going to take his word for it. He's had 2nd line minutes in his time with the Sabres this season. 

 

Sad part about it is, fans bitch when Nolan does something to help the team win........ so now you all want him to put Grigorenko in a position to succeed instead of leaving players out there we know will fail? It's one or the other........

[Thorner]

Nolan has worked with young players for years. There's a reason why he's oft chosen to do so. I don't think he would be in those positions if he didn't know what he was doing. I don't think a group of forum fans know more than the people that hire Nolan, and those who speak highly of him. With that said, I'm going to take his word for it. He's had 2nd line minutes in his time with the Sabres this season. 

 

Sad part about it is, fans bitch when Nolan does something to help the team win........ so now you all want him to put Grigorenko in a position to succeed instead of leaving players out there we know will fail? It's one or the other........

 

I don't think it's necessarily one or the other, as I think Grigorenko has a steep learning curve to adjust to the NHL game. Giving him plenty of minutes in a top 2 line situation may allow him time to learn how he needs to evolve his game, while taking his bumps, while his ability to produce points in the short-term, 10 game future is probably minimal.

[tom webster]

Nolan has worked with young players for years. There's a reason why he's oft chosen to do so. I don't think he would be in those positions if he didn't know what he was doing. I don't think a group of forum fans know more than the people that hire Nolan, and those who speak highly of him. With that said, I'm going to take his word for it. He's had 2nd line minutes in his time with the Sabres this season.

 

Sad part about it is, fans bitch when Nolan does something to help the team win........ so now you all want him to put Grigorenko in a position to succeed instead of leaving players out there we know will fail? It's one or the other........

One of the biggest mis conceptions about Nolan is that he works with young players. His issues with Muckler began when he refused to play Satan after Muckler acquired him. He wanted guys like Ed Ronan, Rob Ray, Matt Barnaby, grinders who he perceived had paid their dues in the minors.

Those teams played just like this team is playing. Only two things are different. He doesn't have a hall of fame goalie and the rest of the league has evolved into a puck possession league and guys like Nolan have not. He will never coach again in the NHL.

Edited March 22, 2015 by tom webster

[woods-racer]

One of the biggest mis conceptions about Nolan is that he works with young players. His issues with Muckler began when he refused to play Satan after Muckler acquired him. He wanted guys like Ed Ronan, Rob Ray, Matt Barnaby, grinders who he perceived had paid their dues in the minors.

Those teams played just like this team is playing. Only two things are different. He doesn't have a hall of fame goalie and the rest of the league has evolved into a puck possession league and guys like Nolan have not. He will never coach again in the NHL.

 

Love you man! :wub:

 

And Hasek never had a kind word to say about him. The sole reason Nolan was successful is he rode the hot goalie to wining. Boy, times have changed  :wallbash:

[beerme1]

One of the biggest mis conceptions about Nolan is that he works with young players. His issues with Muckler began when he refused to play Satan after Muckler acquired him. He wanted guys like Ed Ronan, Rob Ray, Matt Barnaby, grinders who he perceived had paid their dues in the minors.

Those teams played just like this team is playing. Only two things are different. He doesn't have a hall of fame goalie and the rest of the league has evolved into a puck possession league and guys like Nolan have not. He will never coach again in the NHL.

 

Interesting comments and I think I can agree Nolan is again out of the league.

[woods-racer]

Interesting comments and I think I can agree Nolan is again out of the league.

But when?

 

I still think December 2015-ish.

[Robviously]

But when?

 

I still think December 2015-ish.

Probably right after this season.  Why would you wait until the middle of next season if he's not your pick as the coach?  And especially if you're building around young players that he's not meshing with?

[beerme1]

But when?

 

I still think December 2015-ish.

 

 

Dunno but I'm thinking if we don't finish last it will be Monday April 13th. And further there is no reason to keep him beyond that date if GMTM has severe problems with him and another guy in mind.

 

Let me ask you this though, in a perfect world, we get McDavid and Babcock decides he wants out and move on to another scene. Are you willing to keep Nolan till December to bring rumored GMTM fave Luke Richardson? I would rather move on from Teddy April 13.

Does Grigo's shift where he hit the post on a bullet count for more ice time?

[woods-racer]

Dunno but I'm thinking if we don't finish last it will be Monday April 13th. And further there is no reason to keep him beyond that date if GMTM has severe problems with him and another guy in mind.

 

Let me ask you this though, in a perfect world, we get McDavid and Babcock decides he wants out and move on to another scene. Are you willing to keep Nolan till December to bring rumored GMTM fave Luke Richardson? I would rather move on from Teddy April 13.

Yes and No.

 

Yes I would like Nolan gone mid April. But my theory is no coach will take the job till they see the team come October. If they believe GMTM has a good team and the franchises is no longer  in partial Tank mode , and they know they can to better than Nolan, they will come calling. Nolan will be on his last leg by December as he will be doing the same old, same old. Playing an Ellis type player more minutes than McEichel, Sam, Grigs.  There will be no PC flack from fans that Nolan wasn't given a far shake with a good roster at this point.

 

GMTM will be called upon by fans and media to do the right thing and fire Nolan.

 

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.

[Doohicksie]

If Teddy is back, then there may be merit to the argument that TM would like another high draft pick next year and the winning is targeted for the following season. If Teddy is gone, TM is likely trying to get the team to improve ASAP and the comment about having a chance to win next year's lottery would appear to be misstated.

 

I think if there is a new coach next year, it indicates that GMTM wants to make the playoffs next year.  BUT if Nolan is behind the bench in October it doesn't necessarily mean another year of Tank.  I think there are two scenarios with Nolan:  One is he really IS that bad.  The other is that he's all-in with GMTM on The Tank and next year he starts coaching for realz.  The advantage of keeping Nolan isn't Nolan himself; it's retaining the other coaching staff.  I don't really want to see Irbe move on, and I think Trottier and Flynn have done good things this season.  I think if you bring in someone from outside, there will be an all-new staff and I think Irbe in particular is the one guy the Sabres should keep.  But I also think he's the one with strongest ties to Nolan.

Of course if they land Babcock I'm not so worried about the assistant coaches.

[woods-racer]

I think if there is a new coach next year, it indicates that GMTM wants to make the playoffs next year.  BUT if Nolan is behind the bench in October it doesn't necessarily mean another year of Tank.  I think there are two scenarios with Nolan:  One is he really IS that bad.  The other is that he's all-in with GMTM on The Tank and next year he starts coaching for realz.  The advantage of keeping Nolan isn't Nolan himself; it's retaining the other coaching staff.  I don't really want to see Irbe move on, and I think Trottier and Flynn have done good things this season.  I think if you bring in someone from outside, there will be an all-new staff and I think Irbe in particular is the one guy the Sabres should keep.  But I also think he's the one with strongest ties to Nolan.

 

The Nolan sucks, but his staff is really good angle...

[Doohicksie]

I think Nolan realizes he sucks.  He's a motivator of a certain type and that's it.  He knows he's not Xs and Os, but Flynn and Trottier are, so he brought them in.  He knows he needs a good goalie for his basic philosophy to work, so he brought Irbe in.  He's Head Coach only in the sense that he is the head of the coaches, but I just don't see him as being particularly engaged in all aspects of coaching, that's what Assistants are for.

[K-9]

One of the biggest mis conceptions about Nolan is that he works with young players. His issues with Muckler began when he refused to play Satan after Muckler acquired him. He wanted guys like Ed Ronan, Rob Ray, Matt Barnaby, grinders who he perceived had paid their dues in the minors.

Those teams played just like this team is playing. Only two things are different. He doesn't have a hall of fame goalie and the rest of the league has evolved into a puck possession league and guys like Nolan have not. He will never coach again in the NHL.

You have captured Nolan in a nutshell. 

 

GO SABRES!!!