Grigorenko

[Patty16]

I'm surprised no one has posted this yet. Matthew Coller has a great article about Grigorenko today. Pretty much explains it all.

 

http://www.wgr550.com/What-does-the-future-hold-for-Mikhail-Grigorenko-/21146506

 

I agree... and supports what I said earlier in this thread that many on the Sabres didn't like him.  

 

The kid has been crticized by basically every pro coach he's had for lacking a will to compete with any regularity. I'm not why, when as PH explains in the article that he's played with talent,  many on here continue to say he's not playing with the right people. 

 

The kid has had a bunch of chances and hasn't earned anything. Right now in his development he's a good AHL player, not great, and he's def not ready for the NHL.  That could change tho 

This has been Paul Hamilton's take all season and I screamed at my radio every time. Girgensons and Larsson can easily play wing on any line. Most organizations slide guys from center to wing when they have a glut of centers. I'm not sure why this isn't obvious to Hamilton.

 

but not every player can play wing, esp if you've always played C.  

[qwksndmonster]

He's been totally mishandled. Blame Darcy.

This is why it's sad that he's not going to get a fair shot with this organization.  I hope he can put it together with whomever we trade him to.

[Patty16]

This is why it's sad that he's not going to get a fair shot with this organization.  I hope he can put it together with whomever we trade him to.

 

He;'s been mishandled but to say he hasn't had a fair shot is wrong. He's not working hard with any consistency, and that's on no one but himself.  

[Huckleberry]

This has been Paul Hamilton's take all season and I screamed at my radio every time. Girgensons and Larsson can easily play wing on any line. Most organizations slide guys from center to wing when they have a glut of centers. I'm not sure why this isn't obvious to Hamilton.

 

Well yeah if you do slide grigorenko into the line up, girgensons and larsson are more easier to move to the wing for sure.

Grigorenko is just a more natural center than those guys, not saying he is better than them, but he is more clearly a center and less moveable to the wing.

[LGR4GM]

He;'s been mishandled but to say he hasn't had a fair shot is wrong. He's not working hard with any consistency, and that's on no one but himself.  

Right but the issue is you shouldn't even know about his issues with hardwork consistency.  Grigorenko should have played about 5 games in Buffalo this season and those should have been his first.  I don't expect most 20yr old kids to be able to put it all together.  Grigensons and Ristolainen are the exceptions.  Zadorov and Grigorenko and Reinhart (who will be fine) are the norm.  They need a little more time, a little more maturity, and a little more patience.  Grigorenko may never make it, but for now we will have to see if he can continue improving, 

[Patty16]

Right but the issue is you shouldn't even know about his issues with hardwork consistency.  Grigorenko should have played about 5 games in Buffalo this season and those should have been his first.  I don't expect most 20yr old kids to be able to put it all together.  Grigensons and Ristolainen are the exceptions.  Zadorov and Grigorenko and Reinhart (who will be fine) are the norm.  They need a little more time, a little more maturity, and a little more patience.  Grigorenko may never make it, but for now we will have to see if he can continue improving, 

 

 

Lots of kids in his draft year have already made it, but you're right you don't expect all 20 year olds to put it all together. Tpyically the issue isn't consistency with work ethic and that's why he's getting dinged so hard. Most young kids just can't produce enough or not blow assignments with consistency. 

 

He's never going to make it regardless of his skill level if he takes as many shifts off as he does. It's easy to do that and produce at the lower levels but not the national league 

[LGR4GM]

by my quick count about 10-11 players out of that first round are "regular" NHL players.  So if the stats hold only about another 5-7 will be NHL players (100+ games = NHL player) 

[qwksndmonster]

Lots of kids in his draft year have already made it, but you're right you don't expect all 20 year olds to put it all together. Tpyically the issue isn't consistency with work ethic and that's why he's getting dinged so hard. Most young kids just can't produce enough or not blow assignments with consistency. 

 

He's never going to make it regardless of his skill level if he takes as many shifts off as he does. It's easy to do that and produce at the lower levels but not the national league 

He'll make it, it'll just take a while.  Time that the organization would've been able to keep him in Roch had Darcy not been so at his job.

[Patty16]

by my quick count about 10-11 players out of that first round are "regular" NHL players.  So if the stats hold only about another 5-7 will be NHL players (100+ games = NHL player) 

 

Yea same here, and some are having a big impact with roughly same amount of mins that 25 gets when he's up. 

 

He'll make it, it'll just take a while.  Time that the organization would've been able to keep him in Roch had Darcy not been so ###### at his job.

 

I'm 50/50 on whether he'll make it, I don't see that burn to succeed.

 

 But you're right he shouldve been in Roch 

[LGR4GM]

Yea same here, and some are having a big impact with roughly same amount of mins that 25 gets when he's up. 

 

 

I'm 50/50 on whether he'll make it, I don't see that burn to succeed.

 

 But you're right he shouldve been in Roch 

True, just keep in mind how terrible the team is.  Grigorenko is more Hodgson like than Zemgus like (letting plays unfold as opposed to constantly attacking) and I think that could be a problem going forward. Of course he impressed me with how much he improved over last year so you never know, could see another jump. 

[Huckleberry]

Yea same here, and some are having a big impact with roughly same amount of mins that 25 gets when he's up. 

 

 

I'm 50/50 on whether he'll make it, I don't see that burn to succeed.

 

 But you're right he shouldve been in Roch 

 

The 1st line of tampa that online emerged last year, was a combined 22 yrs old and spend 4 seasons in the AHL, i think we can give grigorenko two more years.

[Johnny DangerFace]

Why is it when a 20 year old struggles in the NHL people talk about effort? He's 20 years old, he might just be not ready.

[X. Benedict]

Why is it when a 20 year old struggles in the NHL people talk about effort? He's 20 years old, he might just be not ready.

 

Because the organization has run out of time. 

He's NHL next year or waived. 

[MBHockey13]

I was thinking about how guys like Vanek and Pominville and Roy and Ennis and others matured into the organization. I don't remember sweating their development in the minors as much as we do these days. Of course, we are much more in desperate need of talent, and obsessing about our prospect's development is all we really have. But there is nothing wrong with guys spending a few years in the minors. It's usually the best thing for them. 

I'm sure the fans in Detroit or Chicago aren't worried about what every prospect in their system is doing and how a bad week or a good week reflects on their future with the club.

 

I'm as obsessive as anyone but I'm worried we'll all drive ourselves crazy as our prospect pool develops. Lots of these guys are still a few years away from making an impact and it definitely isn't easy to be patient when we're as horrible as we are. 

 

We really need to get McDavid / Eichel and bask in their wonderfulness next season. Maybe GMTM gets a couple of skilled vets on short-term contracts to take some of the pressure off so some of these younger guys like Grigs and Baptiste and Bailey and Fasching and Compher, etc. can develop at the correct pace.

[LGR4GM]

Jason Pominville was waived during the 2005/6 season and he was 22/23 during that season. 

[Patty16]

Why is it when a 20 year old struggles in the NHL people talk about effort? He's 20 years old, he might just be not ready.

 

They don't, they usually talk consistency which sometimes has to do with effort. But when an offensive geared player is not scoring and not hustling, its a problem and gets talked about.

 

The 1st line of tampa that online emerged last year, was a combined 22 yrs old and spend 4 seasons in the AHL, i think we can give grigorenko two more years.

 

What line? (not disagreeing just wondering who you mean?_)

[LGR4GM]

They don't, they usually talk consistency which sometimes has to do with effort. But when an offensive geared player is not scoring and not hustling, its a problem and gets talked about.

 

 

What line? (not disagreeing just wondering who you mean?_)

Well he is scoring, at the AHL level which is where he belongs.

 

I think he means the Kucherov - Johnson - Namestnikov line

[Patty16]

Well he is scoring, at the AHL level which is where he belongs.

 

I think he means the Kucherov - Johnson - Namestnikov line

 

Thats not the top line but Johnson and Kucherov were doing far better than Grigo at the same point.  And none had hustle issues, just production. 

 

You're right tho, he belongs in wtih the amerks

[MBHockey13]

I think that is why there is so much reluctance to draft Russians. You're afraid they won't want to develop their game in the AHL and will head off to the KHL and then you may or may not ever see them in your team's uniform. Plus, you have no control over their development.

With the collapsing ruble maybe that won't be as much of an issue but honestly - would Grigs take another contract here and play another year or two with the Amerks - and that is IF he passes through waivers?

[Patty16]

I think that is why there is so much reluctance to draft Russians. You're afraid they won't want to develop their game in the AHL and will head off to the KHL and then you may or may not ever see them in your team's uniform. Plus, you have no control over their development.

 

With the collapsing ruble maybe that won't be as much of an issue but honestly - would Grigs take another contract here and play another year or two with the Amerks - and that is IF he passes through waivers?

 

fair point. They've always had a rep for only hustling to score points and taking too many shifts off.  Grigo has the same issues but he's still young. With everyting thats happened to him (thats been out of his control) he may need a change of scenery to light a fire under his ***.  

[That Aud Smell]

Jason Pominville was waived during the 2005/6 season and he was 22/23 during that season. 

 

Fair funking point. That very issue was raised during his on-ice interview with the CBC following the series-clincher in Ott'wa.

[Huckleberry]

Well he is scoring, at the AHL level which is where he belongs.

 

I think he means the Kucherov - Johnson - Namestnikov line

 

Kucherov - Johnson - Palat

 

And they really didn't have much better numbers in their first year than grigs except for johnson.

 

Thats not the top line but Johnson and Kucherov were doing far better than Grigo at the same point.  And none had hustle issues, just production. 

 

You're right tho, he belongs in wtih the amerks

 

I dissagree here, that is their top line in tampa.  Its also what makes them so great, they pushed stamkos back to a 2nd line role.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Heimdall

[Doohicksie]

I dunno... I watch Grigorenko play (like against Ottawa) and I see a competitive, hustling player.  Previously it seemed like he was in over his head, but he looks okay out there now.  I had the same impression about Larsson, and he seems to be breaking out.  I think Grigo is on the same cusp.  I'd sign him and keep him; I think he will be a contributor.

 

To me it seems that the problem is with the kids are handled.  Pysyk looks great.  Larsson is hitting his stride.  Grigorenko is starting to use his size in good ways.  But they keep going up and down between Rochester and Buffalo, and when they do, there are stinging criticisms - "We expect more."  Why?  WHY?  They're just learning the NHL game, you're not going to get Gretzky, folks.  The GM/coach questions them, they question themselves, they start to hold their sticks too tight.  Then you wonder why they don't achieve.

 

This team sucks.  It should get better soon.  My one big disappointment is that considering expectations are so low (and the team is actually expected to suck), why not give these guys a solid chance, a shot of confidence, and an opportunity to get out there, make mistakes and learn from them?

 

If Grigorenko is a bust at this point, a major contributor is the way he was handled by the organization.

[Doohicksie]

Oh... one more point.  I tend to not be a conspiracy theorist, but I wonder how much of this perceived mishandling is Kabuki Theater to thinly veil The Tank. Maybe what Nolan and GMTM say to the media about these players doesn't match with what the players are told behind closed doors.  So they send good players down, claiming more is expected of them, but in reality the goal isn't to field the best team this year, the goal is to win McEichel.  I think CoHo may be part of such a grand conspiracy and will return to a much better form next year. 

 

But I think it's more likely that the organization is screwing the pooch on these players.  If there was any kind of conspiracy to tank, it would come out either intentionally or unintentionally, as players vented their frustration in interviews.  Probably much easier to make them frustrated than to ask them to ask frustrated.

[woods-racer]

Oh... one more point.  I tend to not be a conspiracy theorist, but I wonder how much of this perceived mishandling is Kabuki Theater to thinly veil The Tank. Maybe what Nolan and GMTM say to the media about these players doesn't match with what the players are told behind closed doors.  So they send good players down, claiming more is expected of them, but in reality the goal isn't to field the best team this year, the goal is to win McEichel.  I think CoHo may be part of such a grand conspiracy and will return to a much better form next year. 

 

But I think it's more likely that the organization is screwing the pooch on these players.  If there was any kind of conspiracy to tank, it would come out either intentionally or unintentionally, as players vented their frustration in interviews.  Probably much easier to make them frustrated than to ask them to ask frustrated.

You talked your self right out of that conspiracy theory. I did like the premise of the Theory then you let logic over ride it all. You're no fun....

Edited March 16, 2015 by Woods-Racer