game discussion thread GDT: Sabres at Blue Jackets 2/24/2015 7pm MSG

[Weave]

I'm as pro Tank as they come, how'd I get roped into this?

 

His screen name is drunkard.  It's not hard to figure out.

[JJFIVEOH]

Why can't anybody get it through their heads that this isn't about not discussing, or supporting, the tank. It's the fact that some feel the need to insert it into almost every single thread. 

[Drunkard]

And I'm going to support whatever player this mess winds up getting us too. But I won't support a situation that could have been avoided by firing Darcy Regier sooner. Accepting the tank is acknowledging that Regier knew what he was doing. And I will never do that.

I didn't want us to completely rebuild either but once we moved Pominville the writing was on the wall. The downward spiral was basically inevitable at that point so rather than limp forward with no centers and pinning our hopes to Miller, Vanek, and Ott the best choice was to keep going forward with the plan and that's evident with the way Murray continued on with it by dumping Miller and Ott after Darcy dumped Pominville and Vanek.

[inkman]

Why can't anybody get it through their heads that this isn't about not discussing, or supporting, the tank. It's the fact that some feel the need to insert it into almost every single thread.

It's what their entire season is about, not sure how we avoid it being everywhere.

[Drunkard]

I'm as pro Tank as they come, how'd I get roped into this?

Maybe I've got you mistaken with somebody else and if so, I apologize. There is/was another poster that basically said "feck the tank" is just about every game day thread earlier this season.

[inkman]

Maybe I've got you mistaken with somebody else and if so, I apologize. There is/was another poster that basically said "feck the tank" is just about every game day thread earlier this season.

It may be swamp, bunomatic, beerme1 or sizzle. I know not all of them are anti tankers but I believe one is.

[Drunkard]

No its not tanking. The Patriots do this with veteran players every year. Getting value for a player while his value is higher in the market than your perceived internal value is just smart GM work. Now you can argue the merits of whether or not we got good value for Pominville, but that was a re-building move.

 

Tanking is intentionally rostering a team for the full season with the intention of finishing last. That year we had the #8 and #16. That is still in the "cycle of mediocrity" draft range.

That one trade in and of itself is not tanking, but it began the tanking because it started the mass exodus of dumping every veteran on this team that had any trade value. Dumping Pominville alone may not be tanking but systematically selling off Pominville, Vanek, Ott, and Miller and then even Moulson is definitely tanking and the picks and prospects we got from that tanking is still a result of the tank whether the team you trade them to nets you the 16th pick, the 28th pick, the 30th pick, or guys like Larsson, Hackett, or whoever. Rebuilding is not always the same as tanking but rebuilding to the extent that we did is definitely tanking even if you don't finish last. If we somehow finish the season with the 28th worst record that doesn't necessarily mean we didn't tank, it just means we couldn't even tank right.

 

Also, comparing the NFL and NHL is completely apples and oranges because when the Patriots trade a guy off for draft picks the player they draft is ready to suit up for them that very next season before a single game has been missed. When you trade a NHL player for draft picks (even 1st rounders) most of them won't be ready to play for you for several years.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Drunkard

[Samson's Flow]

That one trade in and of itself is not tanking, but it began the tanking because it started the mass exodus of dumping every veteran on this team that had any trade value. Dumping Pominville alone may not be tanking but systematically selling off Pominville, Vanek, Ott, and Miller and then even Moulson is definitely tanking and the picks and prospects we got from that tanking is still a result of the tank whether the team you trade them to nets you the 16th pick, the 28th pick, the 30th pick, or guys like Larsson, Hackett, or whoever. Rebuilding is not always the same as tanking but rebuilding to the extent that we did is definitely tanking even if you don't finish last. If we somehow finish the season with the 28th worst record that doesn't necessarily mean we didn't tank, it just means we couldn't even tank right.

That season was all about recognizing that we were not going to be a consistently successful team with Pominville and Vanek. Therefore the team cashed in those assets for value in terms of picks and prospects. That is the definition (IMO) of rebuiling.

 

The Sabres did not enter into a "tanking" mode until they decided that instead of using those assets acquired to gain a new mix of NHL players in the offseason, the team proceeded to ice the gutted team to start the 13'-14' season. Adding NHL talent and trading a few of those assets for NHL players would have been a rebuild and made the team competitive in the short term. Deciding to aim for last place to acquire Reinhart and now McEichel is a tanking strategy.

[Drunkard]

It may be swamp, bunomatic, beerme1 or sizzle. I know not all of them are anti tankers but I believe one is.

I think it may have been Swamp, but that's just an educated guess. Either way, sorry for the confusion.

[woods-racer]

I'm as pro Tank as they come, how'd I get roped into this?

:nana:

[JJFIVEOH]

It's what their entire season is about, not sure how we avoid it being everywhere.

That's still besides the point. The pro-tankers seem to think that the anti-tankers don't want it talked about. The ridicule, the snark...... comments regarding said anti-tankers using avatars of our young draft picks, anti-tankers cheering them on when they eventually win....... it gets old. Although I shouldn't call them anti-tankers, most of them are just sick of hearing about it. These people want moderation, that's all. Pro-tankers want relentless tank talk. Self-control and common courtesy, is that too much to ask? 

[Drunkard]

That season was all about recognizing that we were not going to be a consistently successful team with Pominville and Vanek. Therefore the team cashed in those assets for value in terms of picks and prospects. That is the definition (IMO) of rebuiling.

 

The Sabres did not enter into a "tanking" mode until they decided that instead of using those assets acquired to gain a new mix of NHL players in the offseason, the team proceeded to ice the gutted team to start the 13'-14' season. Adding NHL talent and trading a few of those assets for NHL players would have been a rebuild and made the team competitive in the short term. Deciding to aim for last place to acquire Reinhart and now McEichel is a tanking strategy.

I think we are just bantering about semantics at this point. I know rebuilding is not the same as tanking but (to me at least) rebuilding to the extent that we did is completely synonymous with tanking. I think the tank plan started with trading away Pominville because he wasn't even a pending UFA and based on everything I've ever read, seen, or heard about the guy didn't lend me to believe we would've had a hard time re-signing him. The fact that we didn't attempt to replace him with any type of comparable talent solidifies the goal of finishing poorly in the standings and encouraged guys like Miller, Vanek, and Ott to follow suit. They saw the team didn't do anything to improve in the short term in that offseason and knew it was only a matter of time until they punched their own ticket out of town.

 

Most rebuilds involve moving out older veterans players for future assets but they balance it out by bringing in other decent players to stop the bleeding. We willingly bled out the majority of our talent and brought in considerably less talent with the idea that suffering would happen in the short term. Trading Pominville was definitely a tank move in my opinion even if it was of the too little, too late variety for that particular season. The next year they finished the job and picked the rest of the meat off the bones of the rotting carcass that's been the Buffalo Sabres.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Drunkard

[Samson's Flow]

I think we are just bantering about semantics at this point. I know rebuilding is not the same as tanking but (to me at least) rebuilding to the extent that we did is completely synonymous with tanking. I think the tank plan started with trading away Pominville because he wasn't even a pending UFA and based on everything I've ever read, seen, or heard about the guy didn't lend me to believe we would've had a hard time re-signing him. The fact that we didn't attempt to replace him with any type of comparable talent solidifies the goal of finishing poorly in the standings and encouraged guys like Miller, Vanek, and Ott to follow suit. They saw the team didn't do anything to improve in the short term in that offseason and knew it was only a matter of time until they punched their own ticket out of town.

 

Most rebuilds involve moving out older veterans players for future assets but they balance it out by bringing in other decent players to stop the bleeding. We willingly bled out the majority of our talent and brought in considerably less talent with the idea that suffering would happen in the short term. Trading Pominville was definitely a tank move in my opinion even if it was of the too little, too late variety for that particular season. The next year they finished the job and picked the rest of the meat off the bones of the rotting carcass that's been the Buffalo Sabres.

You can call it tanking and I can call it rebuilding, but we seem to be reaching the same end result.

 

I will say that the 're-built' Sabres appear to be a lot tougher to play against and have much more size. That is a pretty strong departure from a few years ago.

[TrueBlueGED]

Tanking didn't get us Zadorov, rebuilding did. And as I've established time and again, rebuilding =/= tanking.

 

No its not tanking. The Patriots do this with veteran players every year. Getting value for a player while his value is higher in the market than your perceived internal value is just smart GM work. Now you can argue the merits of whether or not we got good value for Pominville, but that was a re-building move.

 

Tanking is intentionally rostering a team for the full season with the intention of finishing last. That year we had the #8 and #16. That is still in the "cycle of mediocrity" draft range.

 

 

I firmly believe Pominville was traded because the decision to intentionally tank had been made. It was the first step in the process. The ability to intentionally ice a tank-caliber roster is pretty low mid-season--ultimately, I think the decision to start tanking was made in the middle of the season that year, which is why we ended up with 8th instead of 1st. Going into the year they had intended to compete for a playoff spot, and when that didn't work out (for seemingly the thousandth time), they reversed course, and that culminated in the Pominville trade and subsequent actions.

[Drunkard]

You can call it tanking and I can call it rebuilding, but we seem to be reaching the same end result.

 

I will say that the 're-built' Sabres appear to be a lot tougher to play against and have much more size. That is a pretty strong departure from a few years ago.

I'm definitely happy with the rebuild/tank so far. The expected roster we could be icing in a couple of years has the potential to be awesome. 2 supremely talented, hard working centers in McEichel and Reinhart surrounded by big, talented forwards who skate, hit, and are willing to drop the gloves and even the guys who don't have the ideal size like Ennis seems to have a tenacity and take no attitude to go along with their skill and speed. Still a ways to go because I definitely like the direction the expected roster is going in. I just hope we can finish off the plan with a 30th place finish and finally start the long climb upwards in the standings.

[darksabre]

I firmly believe Pominville was traded because the decision to intentionally tank had been made. It was the first step in the process. The ability to intentionally ice a tank-caliber roster is pretty low mid-season--ultimately, I think the decision to start tanking was made in the middle of the season that year, which is why we ended up with 8th instead of 1st. Going into the year they had intended to compete for a playoff spot, and when that didn't work out (for seemingly the thousandth time), they reversed course, and that culminated in the Pominville trade and subsequent actions.

You're missing the nuance though. The Pominville trade was not inherently a tank move. If Darcy doesn't set his mind to "suffering" and unload more then the tank never happens. Maybe we're in the playoffs right now with a successful short rebuild? It was certainly doable.

 

I'm not interested in supporting Darcy Regier in any way.

[TrueBlueGED]

You're missing the nuance though. The Pominville trade was not inherently a tank move. If Darcy doesn't set his mind to "suffering" and unload more then the tank never happens. Maybe we're in the playoffs right now with a successful short rebuild? It was certainly doable.

 

I'm not interested in supporting Darcy Regier in any way.

 

I think this is causing you to want to evaluate the move in a vacuum, when you cannot do so. I don't think there's any way in a million years that Regier offloads Pominville for futures if they weren't intending to tank. If it were a rebuilding move, it would have been done in the offseason when your chances of getting NHL players back is much higher.

[darksabre]

I think this is causing you to want to evaluate the move in a vacuum, when you cannot do so. I don't think there's any way in a million years that Regier offloads Pominville for futures if they weren't intending to tank. If it were a rebuilding move, it would have been done in the offseason when your chances of getting NHL players back is much higher.

This is probably true, but as we've established in the past, Darcy was slow to the draw.