off topic Buffalo Bills 2015

[LastPommerFan]

 

The call will forever be indefensible...but your boy Wilson didn't have to throw the pick ;)

 

That's exactly the type of pick I'd expect the 12th best QB in the league to throw with 20 seconds left in the Superbowl.

 

Especially when set up for failure by his worthless sack of bones and slime of a coach.

[Claude_Verret]

JB Smoove on Howard just now..

 

"You pass when you have to, and you run the GD ball when you're supposed to."

 

Amen.

[TrueBlueGED]

So, I've read a lot and listened to a lot of post-mortem podcasts on the Super Bowl...how in the world is Edelman's ignored concussion not getting more coverage? I know ESPN had a short story that he was cleared on the sideline...but the guy was blatantly stumbling around out there. Did the clearing conversation go something like "You're okay, right? okay? Okay." Meanwhile, Cliff Avril who looked perfectly fine walking around, had to go back to the quiet room and run the full gamut of concussion tests, which he failed. I can't fathom how Edelman didn't have to go back for the testing.

 

Yea, I'm still bitter the Pats won and I have to endure "Brady is the best ever because he got ring #4" when it came on a play he had zero to do with. Whatever.

[shrader]

That's the exact thing that is going to kill the NFL.  They're being sued constantly by ex-players and yet this one gets through because it's the Super Bowl.  I don't think they every get past the concussion issues and it will eventually bring them down.

[Johnny DangerFace]

So, I've read a lot and listened to a lot of post-mortem podcasts on the Super Bowl...how in the world is Edelman's ignored concussion not getting more coverage? I know ESPN had a short story that he was cleared on the sideline...but the guy was blatantly stumbling around out there. Did the clearing conversation go something like "You're okay, right? okay? Okay." Meanwhile, Cliff Avril who looked perfectly fine walking around, had to go back to the quiet room and run the full gamut of concussion tests, which he failed. I can't fathom how Edelman didn't have to go back for the testing.

 

Yea, I'm still bitter the Pats won and I have to endure "Brady is the best ever because he got ring #4" when it came on a play he had zero to do with. Whatever.

 

Brady had a lot to do with that win.  Scored 14 points in the 4th quarter.  Including an 8-8 65 yard drive to win the game in the final 5 minutes of a game.  Say what you want about Brady, but the guy is a winner and Mr. Clutch in super bowls.

[That Aud Smell]

I enjoy hating on Brady as much as the next guy -- I will never forget (or forgive) that gratuitous shot he took when, unbidden, he said his Dad demonstrated his love and commitment by coming to watch him play in Buffalo, of all places (gack!) -- but there's no reasoned debate over these assertions: He's the greatest quarterback of his generation; he's one of the greatest quarterbacks (if not the greatest quarterback) of all time, and he is among the most accomplished professional athletes to play in our lifetimes.

 

Fukcer.

[darksabre]

I enjoy hating on Brady as much as the next guy -- I will never forget (or forgive) that gratuitous shot he took when, unbidden, he said his Dad demonstrated his love and commitment by coming to watch him play in Buffalo, of all places (gack!) -- but there's no reasoned debate over these assertions: He's the greatest quarterback of his generation; he's one of the greatest quarterbacks (if not the greatest quarterback) of all time, and he is among the most accomplished professional athletes to play in our lifetimes.

 

Fukcer.

 

He's the sharpest passer I've ever watched. They showed a replay during the game where I swear to god I thought I was watching that stupid movie where they curve bullets with their minds or something. Wanted? I think that's the one. 

 

That's what Brady does with a football. He bends time and space. 

[TrueBlueGED]

Brady had a lot to do with that win.  Scored 14 points in the 4th quarter.  Including an 8-8 65 yard drive to win the game in the final 5 minutes of a game.  Say what you want about Brady, but the guy is a winner and Mr. Clutch in super bowls.

 

My complaint isn't with people thinking he's the best, it's with them thinking he's the best because of the outcome of the game when the outcome was decided with him on the bench. If you want to argue this Super Bowl made him the best ever, argue his terrific performance during the game, not that they won. Think about it, if winning made him the best ever...then if the Seahawks don't go braindead and win, he's not the best ever? His "best ever" status hinges on something that happened with him on the bench? Insanity. 

 

 

I enjoy hating on Brady as much as the next guy -- I will never forget (or forgive) that gratuitous shot he took when, unbidden, he said his Dad demonstrated his love and commitment by coming to watch him play in Buffalo, of all places (gack!) -- but there's no reasoned debate over these assertions: He's the greatest quarterback of his generation; he's one of the greatest quarterbacks (if not the greatest quarterback) of all time, and he is among the most accomplished professional athletes to play in our lifetimes.

 

Fukcer.

 

You can absolutely, positively, make a reasonable argument that he's not the best of his generation. Not everyone has to agree, but there's a reasonable argument to be made that Manning is better. 

 

Super Bowls are a *team* accomplishment. Yes, Brady is the most important part of that team in an era where the QB has more influence than ever...but it's still a team metric. 

[That Aud Smell]

You can absolutely, positively, make a reasonable argument that he's not the best of his generation.  

 

NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!

 

There. See how that works?

More seriously: I respectfully disagree. Whether fair or not, I defer to championships as the measure of greatness. Racking up yards and records in the regular season does not qualify a quarterback for consideration. Thus, neither Marino nor Kelly are in the conversation for being the greatest of their generation. 

[Claude_Verret]

NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!

 

There. See how that works?

More seriously: I respectfully disagree. Whether fair or not, I defer to championships as the measure of greatness. Racking up yards and records in the regular season does not qualify a quarterback for consideration. Thus, neither Marino nor Kelly are in the conversation for being the greatest of their generation. 

 

It's close, very close.  But for me the getting caught cheating twice thing swings it in Manning's favor.

[SwampD]

NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!

 

There. See how that works?

More seriously: I respectfully disagree. Whether fair or not, I defer to championships as the measure of greatness. Racking up yards and records in the regular season does not qualify a quarterback for consideration. Thus, neither Marino nor Kelly are in the conversation for being the greatest of their generation. 

I still can't be sure if they won the first three because they cheated. No one can be sure, even Kurt Warner isn't sure. Therefore, I'm just not sure if he is the greatest. We'll never know and it's their own fault. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[TrueBlueGED]

NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!NO YOU CAN'T!

 

There. See how that works?

More seriously: I respectfully disagree. Whether fair or not, I defer to championships as the measure of greatness. Racking up yards and records in the regular season does not qualify a quarterback for consideration. Thus, neither Marino nor Kelly are in the conversation for being the greatest of their generation. 

 

So Dilfer > Marino. Got it ;)

 

I just think it's horribly, terribly misguided to judge an individual on team accomplishments. An argument can be crafted that Brady is better than Manning without touching the championship count, and said argument has infinitely more validity to me than the championship angle. Where is the cutoff for championships being the defining measure of individual greatness? What if two players (say, Brees and Rodgers) each have the same amount? Are they then functionally equivalent? Is Dan Marino seriously not worthy of consideration over Terry Bradshaw? Of all the arguments that can be made for individual greatness, I think championship count is by far the weakest.

[That Aud Smell]

So Dilfer > Marino. Got it ;)

 

I just think it's horribly, terribly misguided to judge an individual on team accomplishments. An argument can be crafted that Brady is better than Manning without touching the championship count, and said argument has infinitely more validity to me than the championship angle. Where is the cutoff for championships being the defining measure of individual greatness? What if two players (say, Brees and Rodgers) each have the same amount? Are they then functionally equivalent? Is Dan Marino seriously not worthy of consideration over Terry Bradshaw? Of all the arguments that can be made for individual greatness, I think championship count is by far the weakest.

Fair.

 

Now I am having a think.

 

DAMMIT.

 

Edit: I think championships remain central to a claim of greatness. Jordan? An all-time (ALL-time) great, obviously. Bernard King? Yeah. And so on.

 

Edit, edit: So, I understand Marino as a sort of outlier in the debate, and how he compares with Bradshaw. I just don't consider Marino as in the same conversation as guys of his era who won a title or two. BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED BY THOUGHTFUL PUNDITRY ABOUT THE NEED FOR ULTIMATE GLORY.

Edited February 3, 2015 by That Aud Smell

[ubkev]

So Dilfer > Marino. Got it ;)

 

I just think it's horribly, terribly misguided to judge an individual on team accomplishments. An argument can be crafted that Brady is better than Manning without touching the championship count, and said argument has infinitely more validity to me than the championship angle. Where is the cutoff for championships being the defining measure of individual greatness? What if two players (say, Brees and Rodgers) each have the same amount? Are they then functionally equivalent? Is Dan Marino seriously not worthy of consideration over Terry Bradshaw? Of all the arguments that can be made for individual greatness, I think championship count is by far the weakest.

 

So how does Brady compare to 4-0 in the Superbowl Joe Montana? I believe The Comeback Kid has a national title as well.

 

Oh Christ! I'm championing for a guy from notre dame....thats it, I'm taking a shower.

[Hoss]

ESPN just said that the Bills are over the salary cap... Dilfer even repeated it when giving reasons why they are going to suck... That's not even a little bit true.

[That Aud Smell]

I still can't be sure if they won the first three because they cheated. No one can be sure, even Kurt Warner isn't sure. Therefore, I'm just not sure if he is the greatest. We'll never know and it's their own fault. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

Not entirely unfair.

 

Ooooh, I hate them. I HATE 'EM!

[TrueBlueGED]

Fair.

 

Now I am having a think.

 

DAMMIT.

 

Edit: I think championships remain central to a claim of greatness. Jordan? An all-time (ALL-time) great, obviously. Bernard King? Yeah. And so on.

 

Edit, edit: So, I understand Marino as a sort of outlier in the debate, and how he compares with Bradshaw. I just don't consider Marino as in the same conversation as guys of his era who won a title or two. BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED BY THOUGHTFUL PUNDITRY ABOUT THE NEED FOR ULTIMATE GLORY.

I'm sorry for making you think! Sports is about blood and guts dammit, not brains!

 

I'm well aware that championships are part of legacy, and painfully aware that the mainstream taking heads hold them up as the pinnacle of individual evaluation (it was used as an argument against Andre Reed in the HoF...just take a moment to consider the mind numbing stupidity of judging a WR of all positions that way). I'd even be willing to go as far as to grant championships can be used to judge which player had a better career if the other stuff is reasonable comparable. I'd probably rather win 4 titles than win 1 and have all the passing records.

 

I simply do not think titles are a good way to rank players as individuals. Even Bill Simmons, possibly the biggest Pats homer alive, has conceded it's hard to do a straight comparison because Brady has had Belichick, arguably the best coach ever, while Manning has had some good-but-not-great coaches, let alone an all time great. The Pats went 11-5 without Brady for a full year, the Colts went 2-14. I know the situations weren't identical (Matt Cassel did have the pieces of one of the best offenses ever to work with), but I think it speaks to the importance of the surrounding cast, no matter how much weight we put on the QB.

 

Brady's postseason record looks remarkably similar to Manning's if you look at the years following those first three rings, when Belichick dismantled (and failed to rebuild) those great defenses. Manning has played his entire career without a great Defense until now, when he's clearly not the same player. The context is just so important when looking at championships that I simply can't hang that on one player, no matter how important he is. Brady has struggled in the playoffs in recent years, and this year he won it all. Is he better than he was three years ago, or did Belichick finally get him a defense to shoulder some of the load?

 

Also, I know how much of an outlier Marino is, but that's why I also mentioned Brees-Rodgers. They both have one ring. How in the world do we distinguish them if championships are so crucial? I'd take Rodgers 10/10 without hesitation, but by ring count I shouldn't care. Roethlisberger has two rings and is at worst a fringe HoFer...does anyone in their right mind take him over Manning? Hell, does anyone take Eli over Peyton?

 

Flip Manning and Brady's career locations. Do you really believe Manning still only has 1 and Brady has 4? I just don't see it.

 

Edit: apologies for the epic number of typos. That was a long post to make from the gym!

Edited February 3, 2015 by TrueBluePhD

[calti]

I don't hear this mentioned anywhere(pardon me if someone did). But on that entire last drive after the lynch reception the seahawks were calling crazy/dumb plays. It wasn't just the last call.

I think their O coordinator may well have been having a panic attack. They had the ball on the 50..---~ 2 min left to get down the field methodically with some low risk solid plays. Instead Wilson throws the ball up for grabs a few times like there were 11 seconds left in the game. He nearly got picked at least once. The big reception to the one was luck.--Then of course the bonehead playcall of the century occurred to a stunned world.

 

 There were signs of an OC panic attack or other health scare . Like Donovan McNabb exc by the coach.

[Hoss]

In the category of ESPN follies on the Bills: anchor just said the Bills lost Super Bowls from 1900-1993. That's impressive.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Tank

[That Aud Smell]

I'd even be willing to go as far as to grant championships can be used to judge which player had a better career if the other stuff is reasonable comparable.

Thanks for all of that. I'm mulling this specifically.

 

I dunno. It may even be that my concept of "greatness" is tied up with things that are outside of, beyond a purely merit-based assessment of an individual player. It may even have some foundation in luck, good fortune, and the like.   

 

The footnote about what the Patriots did without Brady, and what the Colts did without P. Manning is an interesting one. Something I'd lost sight of, frankly.

 

Also, we cannot lost sight of the fact that Eli Manning won 2 Superbowls. TWO. That alone may be enough to kneecap the contention that the only thing that matters is the rings, baby, hurdurhur football.

[nfreeman]

I think the Brady-Manning discussion -- and really the whole QB evaluation discussion -- should focus more on playoff performance, not just # of SB wins.  In that sense, Brady is head and shoulders above Manning, but not Montana.

 

I also don't think anyone can dispute that Brady's 4th quarter in the SB this year was legendary.

[LGR4GM]

Tom Brady is a first round hall of fame QB who is one of the best of the past 15 years. I accept this and sleep soundly at night. 

[Taro T]

I think the Brady-Manning discussion -- and really the whole QB evaluation discussion -- should focus more on playoff performance, not just # of SB wins.  In that sense, Brady is head and shoulders above Manning, but not Montana.

 

I also don't think anyone can dispute that Brady's 4th quarter in the SB this year was legendary.

True.

 

Can't recall the last time there was a QB on the sideline screaming and jumping like a like a teenaged girl at a 1 direction concert. THAT was truly legendary.

[TrueBlueGED]

I think the Brady-Manning discussion -- and really the whole QB evaluation discussion -- should focus more on playoff performance, not just # of SB wins. In that sense, Brady is head and shoulders above Manning, but not Montana.

 

I also don't think anyone can dispute that Brady's 4th quarter in the SB this year was legendary.

I don't agree with discounting the huge majority of two players careers, but focusing on overall playoff performance is quite a bit better than over emphasizing ring count.

 

Brady's 4th quarter was legendary, absolutely. And it would be just as legendary if the Seahawks didn't screw the pooch at the end of the game; yet, I have a feeling many wouldn't remember it the same way, and that's ultimately what I find insane about focusing on game outcomes.

[That Aud Smell]

True.

 

Can't recall the last time there was a QB on the sideline screaming and jumping like a like a teenaged girl at a 1 direction concert. THAT was truly legendary.

 

Brady's 4th quarter was legendary, absolutely. And it would be just as legendary if the Seahawks didn't screw the pooch at the end of the game; yet, I have a feeling many wouldn't remember it the same way, and that's ultimately what I find insane about focusing on game outcomes.

The universe can be an arbitrary and capricious place. Innit?*