OT: The Theology Thread

[dEnnis the Menace]

/snip

I agree that is a very good book, especially for putting everything into historical context.  And it leaves the reader to come to their own conclusion at the end.

 

The bolded is what made me like it so much.  I love history, and I love different aspects that  I hadn't seen or heard before.  

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I think the main issue with taking the Bible at its "word" is it was written/compiled well after the fact (at least 70 year I think for the gospels, and only in it's present form after the council of Nicea (I think, I'm no scholar)). There's a lot of myth and "tall tales" that could have slipped in by then. Plus, the people who wrote it had a vested interest in portraying Jesus in as positive a light as possible.

 

As a parallel there are surely people that believe George Washington cut down a cherry tree (which can't be substantiated) and threw a silver dollar over the Potomac, despite the Potomac being a mile wide where Washington lived.

 

Do you believe George Washington was the first President of the United States?

 

I think in the Bible, you have to assume more things were left out to protect...so i will agree that they want to cast a positive light. Women were pretty much worthless then and there. Jesus could very well have been married, or even.....just bf/gf with a confirmed prostitute. That's a pretty big ommission, but very possible given the culture at the time.

 

God loves questioning. What true god would want a mindless, obediant follower? Even Jesus said (according to the bible), what good is it to love a friend? But if you can love an enemy....that is worth much more.....give or take.

[woods-racer]

We have been very fortunate for many years to have two Priests (at different times) that took the time to explain the historical, and political climate at the time for much of the scripture readings. The Bible taken in todays context is very different than the intended meaning if going by the literal translation.

 

Having a Priest that wishes to teach more than preach has been very important to us. Getting preached to weekly gets old quick, learning never gets old.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Woods-Racer

[dudacek]

We have been very fortunate for many years to have two Priests (at different times) that took the time to explain the historical, and political climate at the time for much of the scripture readings. The Bible taken in todays context is very different than the intended meaning if going by the literal translation.

 

Having a Priest that wishes to teach more than preach has been very important to us. Getting preached to weekly gets old quick, learning never gets old.

 

Given the degree of navel gazing here lately, I'll add that's also a good philosophy for a message board.

[woods-racer]

Given the degree of navel gazing here lately, I'll add that's also a good philosophy for a message board.

I'm hoping your not referring to any one in this thread, this thread has been one of the more civilized as of late in my opinion and why I dared to add a post.

 

You are one of the more composed posters and I'm willing to bet you where like I was and have been pleasantly surprised at the more teaching like atmosphere rather than a lot of preaching (NS personally you have set the bar for this)

 

And you are quite correct, there are places I dare not go let alone post, that I will be preached to.

[dudacek]

I'm hoping your not referring to any one in this thread, this thread has been one of the more civilized as of late in my opinion and why I dared to add a post.

 

You are one of the more composed posters and I'm willing to bet you where like I was and have been pleasantly surprised at the more teaching like atmosphere rather than a lot of preaching (NS personally you have set the bar for this)

 

And you are quite correct, there are places I dare not go let alone post, that I will be preached to.

 

Not at all. I think this thread in particular (given the subject matter) and the board in general does a good job of teaching over preaching. I was more referring to the the idea of board standards and etiquette being discussed elsewhere, and how I like how our community by and large appreciates this philosophy. I think the more heated discussions happen when somebody perceives someone else as  posting outside that standard.

[Ogre]

Do you believe George Washington was the first President of the United States?

 

I think in the Bible, you have to assume more things were left out to protect...so i will agree that they want to cast a positive light. Women were pretty much worthless then and there. Jesus could very well have been married, or even.....just bf/gf with a confirmed prostitute. That's a pretty big ommission, but very possible given the culture at the time.

 

God loves questioning. What true god would want a mindless, obediant follower? Even Jesus said (according to the bible), what good is it to love a friend? But if you can love an enemy....that is worth much more.....give or take.

Hmmmm. God loves questioning. This strikes me in a particular way. I heard a calling to serve long ago as a boy. I was even voted most likely to become a priest by my parish. I was wild though, man. Friggin wild. I was always devoted and paid close attention to any homily that quoted Jesus. I felt a kinship there. He seemed like the sort that never fell to opinion. I liked that. My wild nature has lead me down some hard paths. I have enough artificial implants to cause any future anthropologist to conclude that the people of our time were nuts. I work in conditions that most people would not be able to handle. I will continue to do so until retirement at which time I will self induce my strife. Someday when my maker feels the time is right I will close my eyes and curl up in that Mighty Hand and bask in the glory of those things I can not now see. I will wipe away my tears of joy after a while and say "Send me back. This time I want it to be harder and more arduous. More pain and suffering please." For now I will continue to serve in this capacity that I have been chosen to serve. That was the calling that I heard as a boy.

[smj]

As far as interest in the Bible as an historical document goes I'd recommend reading Can We Trust the Gospels by Mark Roberts.  It is accessible even though it is scholarly (and only 200 pages).  He looks at if we can trust the Gospels to provide reliable historical information about Jesus and also looks at other texts of the period.  Of course, when it comes to the question of if the Gospels offer a trustworthy basis for faith in Jesus that is where faith comes in.  For someone actually open to learning about the basis for the Gospels as reliable historical documents it is a good source. 

[inkman]

Hmmmm. God loves questioning. This strikes me in a particular way. I heard a calling to serve long ago as a boy. I was even voted most likely to become a priest by my parish. I was wild though, man. Friggin wild. I was always devoted and paid close attention to any homily that quoted Jesus. I felt a kinship there. He seemed like the sort that never fell to opinion. I liked that. My wild nature has lead me down some hard paths. I have enough artificial implants to cause any future anthropologist to conclude that the people of our time were nuts. I work in conditions that most people would not be able to handle. I will continue to do so until retirement at which time I will self induce my strife. Someday when my maker feels the time is right I will close my eyes and curl up in that Mighty Hand and bask in the glory of those things I can not now see. I will wipe away my tears of joy after a while and say "Send me back. This time I want it to be harder and more arduous. More pain and suffering please." For now I will continue to serve in this capacity that I have been chosen to serve. That was the calling that I heard as a boy.

Maybe I'm doing alright :unsure:

[Taro T]

I'm not trying to flame. I enjoy the discussion and outside of a few sarcastic remarks here and there I think this entire thread has remained pretty civil.The problem with your argument is that is all hinges on the Bible being true and I'm not convinced that it is. From there it just goes to circular logic and a tailspin of beliefs without facts or evidence to support them and the further back you go the more outlandish the story gets and it's less and less possible to verify to those of us who don't accept the book as true because the only proof that it is true is the book itself saying it is.It also isn't unique. They are several religions that pre-date both the Jewish and the Christian faiths that claim many of the same things from resurrection to virgin births to creation in general. Claiming uniqueness is simply ignoring these other similar stories/religions and if it's so easy to dismiss them as falsehoods then it should be easier to see why many of us are able to do the same thing with Christianity.I think much of the bible is something along the lines of Aesop's fables. A collection of stories (some of which are highly warped, twisted, and even demented but that's another tangent) that are designed to teach people lessons about right and wrong, devotion, faith, or other concepts. Some of them may even have a basis in reality and some are likely conjured up out of thin air. If it gives meaning to your life and gives your mind and body less stress when you contemplate your own demise, then that's great and I'm happy for you. I personally can't consider something to be fact when the only evidence is the book itself claiming it to be the truth or directly from God or however it's currently being spun.Lastly, if all religion was simply about following your beliefs I wouldn't be nearly so skeptical of it in general. The problem is when religious tendencies infiltrate the government (and in some cases downright overtake it) and try to legislate their beliefs on the rest of us then it only makes me question their motives even further. It's one thing to spread your faith to those who willingly want to hear it and another to enact laws that push a religious agenda on the non-religious.

The religious don't have a monopoly on pushing dogma onto people that don't agree w/ it. Zealots come in all stripes and need to be kept in check regardless of which horse they back.

[smj]

Do you believe George Washington was the first President of the United States?

 

I think in the Bible, you have to assume more things were left out to protect...so i will agree that they want to cast a positive light. Women were pretty much worthless then and there. Jesus could very well have been married, or even.....just bf/gf with a confirmed prostitute. That's a pretty big ommission, but very possible given the culture at the time.

 

God loves questioning. What true god would want a mindless, obediant follower? Even Jesus said (according to the bible), what good is it to love a friend? But if you can love an enemy....that is worth much more.....give or take.

Well, obviously there is a whole lot left out in the Bible, however, if you are going to believe Christ was not at all who He claimed to be I suppose those things could be true.  I don't happen to believe they only left out the bad parts because if Jesus was just some delusional, hypocritical teacher than I don't think the Jewish leaders would bother the have Him killed.  No one would be interested in what he was saying if he was flawed and a fraud.

[Drunkard]

The religious don't have a monopoly on pushing dogma onto people that don't agree w/ it. Zealots come in all stripes and need to be kept in check regardless of which horse they back.

Oh I understand that, but in this country the majority of people are Christians and because of that it is easier for them to push their dogma onto others than it is for other groups to successfully push their agendas. From putting under god into the pledge of allegiance to fighting against teaching evolution in schools or trying to make creationism get viewed as a viable scientific alternative to evolution. There's also sin taxes, dry counties, other restrictions on sales of otherwise legal products, and doing everything they can to keep gay people from being able to get married. There are certainly other examples and I'm sure you could list many as well but when it comes to sheer volume and influence I'd focus on the group(s) with the largest numbers and influence rather than some vegan group's quest to end the beef industry (just an example of a non-religious dogma/agenda).

Edited June 5, 2015 by Drunkard

[LastPommerFan]

Well, obviously there is a whole lot left out in the Bible, however, if you are going to believe Christ was not at all who He claimed to be I suppose those things could be true.  I don't happen to believe they only left out the bad parts because if Jesus was just some delusional, hypocritical teacher than I don't think the Jewish leaders would bother the have Him killed.  No one would be interested in what he was saying if he was flawed and a fraud.

 

You mention the "Jewish Leaders" deciding to kill Jesus as proof of His divinity a couple times so far. Even if I grant the debatable point that he was killed by "Jewish Leaders" (Matt 27 is one of the most historically questionable passages in the Gospels) He wasn't the only person executed for blasphemy. Were all the others also true messiahs? To be clear, I'm not questioning His divinity, but I find this particular theological argument to be very soft. 

[bunomatic]

I'm not trying to flame. I enjoy the discussion and outside of a few sarcastic remarks here and there I think this entire thread has remained pretty civil.

 

The problem with your argument is that is all hinges on the Bible being true and I'm not convinced that it is. From there it just goes to circular logic and a tailspin of beliefs without facts or evidence to support them and the further back you go the more outlandish the story gets and it's less and less possible to verify to those of us who don't accept the book as true because the only proof that it is true is the book itself saying it is.

 

It also isn't unique. They are several religions that pre-date both the Jewish and the Christian faiths that claim many of the same things from resurrection to virgin births to creation in general. Claiming uniqueness is simply ignoring these other similar stories/religions and if it's so easy to dismiss them as falsehoods then it should be easier to see why many of us are able to do the same thing with Christianity.

 

I think much of the bible is something along the lines of Aesop's fables. A collection of stories (some of which are highly warped, twisted, and even demented but that's another tangent) that are designed to teach people lessons about right and wrong, devotion, faith, or other concepts. Some of them may even have a basis in reality and some are likely conjured up out of thin air. If it gives meaning to your life and gives your mind and body less stress when you contemplate your own demise, then that's great and I'm happy for you. I personally can't consider something to be fact when the only evidence is the book itself claiming it to be the truth or directly from God or however it's currently being spun.

 

Lastly, if all religion was simply about following your beliefs I wouldn't be nearly so skeptical of it in general. The problem is when religious tendencies infiltrate the government (and in some cases downright overtake it) and try to legislate their beliefs on the rest of us then it only makes me question their motives even further. It's one thing to spread your faith to those who willingly want to hear it and another to enact laws that push a religious agenda on the non-religious.

Great post. 

[deluca67]

Will there ever be a time where religion becomes unnecessary? I see numbers reported about this many or that many millions of Christians in the united states. I would like to know how many actual "Christians" there are. How many people actually believe that there is a God overseeing their lives? How many actually live lives free of sin out of fear of not being allowed into heaven? How many are just going through the motions because religion is the part of a routine handed down over generations. A quick search indicates that 83% of Americans are "Christians", I would guess that number is much much lower if you count only those living Christian lives and not just everyone who fills in "Christian" on a form or a survey. The void in peoples lives that religion once filled in now being filled by the complications of an ever evolving society which cause the number of actual Christians to continue to dwindle.  

[Weave]

I agree that those that label themselves as religious are generally dwindling, but I don't ever foresee a time when religion is unnecessary.  To many, it is a source of comfort and purpose.  I expect that there will always be a measure of people who will find religion as their central reason for being.

[smj]

You mention the "Jewish Leaders" deciding to kill Jesus as proof of His divinity a couple times so far. Even if I grant the debatable point that he was killed by "Jewish Leaders" (Matt 27 is one of the most historically questionable passages in the Gospels) He wasn't the only person executed for blasphemy. Were all the others also true messiahs? To be clear, I'm not questioning His divinity, but I find this particular theological argument to be very soft. 

Yes, I am sure Jesus was not the only person the Jews executed for blasphemy.  However I do believe the sentence would be death by stoning as the out of control mob stoned Stephen the first martyr.  Would it help to point you to the over 300 prophecies in the old testament that were fulfilled in Christ (I am sure you may debate those but 300?).  For example, Isaiah, where many of the prophecies about Christ's death and resurrection are found was written 500+ years before Christ.  I don't think there are any scholars that try to debate that Isaiah and the other old testament books were written well before Christ was born.

 

Back to the crucifixion, I find it interesting that roughly 50 years earlier the crucifixion would not have happened because Rome would not have yet garnered enough control where the Jews were not allowed to execute anyone which was why Pilate ended up passing the sentence and Christ would have been stoned (negating Isaiah's prophecies) and roughly 50 years later the crucifixion would not have happened because Jerusalem had fallen and Rome would not have cared about Jews who wanted a blasphemer crucified.  Actually there was a pretty narrow time in history where Christ could have been crucified in the manner which it occurred.       

[smj]

Will there ever be a time where religion becomes unnecessary? I see numbers reported about this many or that many millions of Christians in the united states. I would like to know how many actual "Christians" there are. How many people actually believe that there is a God overseeing their lives? How many actually live lives free of sin out of fear of not being allowed into heaven? How many are just going through the motions because religion is the part of a routine handed down over generations. A quick search indicates that 83% of Americans are "Christians", I would guess that number is much much lower if you count only those living Christian lives and not just everyone who fills in "Christian" on a form or a survey. The void in peoples lives that religion once filled in now being filled by the complications of an ever evolving society which cause the number of actual Christians to continue to dwindle.  

 

Just to clarify, True Christianity is not about living lives free of sin out of fear of not being allowed into heaven.  It is the only religion that states people are unable to rectify their standing before God and must rely upon Christ as the redeemer for all their sins.  It is a free gift.  I agree, many people make this mistake and identify with Christianity as an attempt to live a "good" life which sadly will do them no good at all.  When a true Christian accepts Christ they only try to live a moral lifestyle to reflect Christ and share this good news with others.  This is clearly stated in Ephesians and John : 

 

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. —John 3:16-17

 

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. —Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[LastPommerFan]

Yes, I am sure Jesus was not the only person the Jews executed for blasphemy. However I do believe the sentence would be death by stoning as the out of control mob stoned Stephen the first martyr. Would it help to point you to the over 300 prophecies in the old testament that were fulfilled in Christ (I am sure you may debate those but 300?). For example, Isaiah, where many of the prophecies about Christ's death and resurrection are found was written 500+ years before Christ. I don't think there are any scholars that try to debate that Isaiah and the other old testament books were written well before Christ was born.

 

Back to the crucifixion, I find it interesting that roughly 50 years earlier the crucifixion would not have happened because Rome would not have yet garnered enough control where the Jews were not allowed to execute anyone which was why Pilate ended up passing the sentence and Christ would have been stoned (negating Isaiah's prophecies) and roughly 50 years later the crucifixion would not have happened because Jerusalem had fallen and Rome would not have cared about Jews who wanted a blasphemer crucified. Actually there was a pretty narrow time in history where Christ could have been crucified in the manner which it occurred.

I am not debating His divinity. I simply find the argument that He was the son of God is proven by the fact that He was crucified by Rome at the behest of the people of Jerusalem to be pretty hollow. My point is to drive home the other arguments for His divinity. I assure you, in Nicea, when Jesus's divinity and relationship to God was codified for us, they did not use this as the argument.

 

I, personally, find His message to be the most profound proof of his divinity. Who, but God, would preach a message of unconditional love for all, including your enemies at that time in history. After that, I believe the signs, from the wine at the wedding to the resurrection.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Whiskey Bottle of Emotion

[I am Defecting]

If God created Everything, even if God Masculine inseminated Mother Earth whom bore forth the fruit that we consume through every perception each second, we'd all still be, figuratively, Sons or Daughters of God.

 

Some Children of God own up to it more than others.  Some deny the origins of what they see, and trace the lineage of a tree, per say, back to themselves.  

[smj]

I am not debating His divinity. I simply find the argument that He was the son of God is proven by the fact that He was crucified by Rome at the behest of the people of Jerusalem to be pretty hollow. My point is to drive home the other arguments for His divinity. I assure you, in Nicea, when Jesus's divinity and relationship to God was codified for us, they did not use this as the argument.

 

I, personally, find His message to be the most profound proof of his divinity. Who, but God, would preach a message of unconditional love for all, including your enemies at that time in history. After that, I believe the signs, from the wine at the wedding to the resurrection.

I am probably doing a poor job or explaining myself - yes, I agree with your well-written second paragraph!

[I am Defecting]

 

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Posted Today, 11:02 PM

DeLuca1967, on 06 Jun 2015 - 8:59 PM, said:

Will there ever be a time where religion becomes unnecessary? I see numbers reported about this many or that many millions of Christians in the united states. I would like to know how many actual "Christians" there are. How many people actually believe that there is a God overseeing their lives? How many actually live lives free of sin out of fear of not being allowed into heaven? How many are just going through the motions because religion is the part of a routine handed down over generations. A quick search indicates that 83% of Americans are "Christians", I would guess that number is much much lower if you count only those living Christian lives and not just everyone who fills in "Christian" on a form or a survey. The void in peoples lives that religion once filled in now being filled by the complications of an ever evolving society which cause the number of actual Christians to continue to dwindle.  

 

I believe that organized religion has to adapt with the times.

 

Some comedian, maybe Gervais, says, well why didn't the good book tell us that the world isn't f'n flat?

 

But even for scientists, there will always be that mystical primary force that draws persons together in the form of religion.  It's the Cult of the Inexplicable.  We have codified that 2 + 2 = 4. That's not much different than saying that the summary of all human experience ever, Science + Religon + Every Oddball's Vision  = Nowhere near explaining the Universe.

 

Every human thought, and there are still massive gaps in knowledge.  Just imagine you could take the cream of the crop in the stream of human thought.  Still massively inefficient at explaining everyday phenomena.  Some folks just give up at that point - Atheists and religious folks both. 

[deluca67]

Just to clarify, True Christianity is not about living lives free of sin out of fear of not being allowed into heaven.  It is the only religion that states people are unable to rectify their standing before God and must rely upon Christ as the redeemer for all their sins.  It is a free gift.  I agree, many people make this mistake and identify with Christianity as an attempt to live a "good" life which sadly will do them no good at all.  When a true Christian accepts Christ they only try to live a moral lifestyle to reflect Christ and share this good news with others.  This is clearly stated in Ephesians and John : 

 

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. —John 3:16-17

 

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. —Ephesians 2:8-9

 

More too my point, I question how many people qualify as a "true Christian" under your guideline. it seems with each passing generation the hold that Religion once had is less than the generation before. Under the idea that you are either growing or you are dying,I believe Religion is dying with the passing of each generation .  

[deluca67]

 

 

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Posted Today, 11:02 PM

DeLuca1967, on 06 Jun 2015 - 8:59 PM, said:

 

I believe that organized religion has to adapt with the times.

 

Some comedian, maybe Gervais, says, well why didn't the good book tell us that the world isn't f'n flat?

 

But even for scientists, there will always be that mystical primary force that draws persons together in the form of religion.  It's the Cult of the Inexplicable.  We have codified that 2 + 2 = 4. That's not much different than saying that the summary of all human experience ever, Science + Religon + Every Oddball's Vision  = Nowhere near explaining the Universe.

 

Every human thought, and there are still massive gaps in knowledge.  Just imagine you could take the cream of the crop in the stream of human thought.  Still massively inefficient at explaining everyday phenomena.  Some folks just give up at that point - Atheists and religious folks both. 

 

As we evolve and our knowledge of the universe expands people will no longer need religion to fill in gaps. IMO, the "mystical primary force" is organized religion's weakest selling point. As you said religion will need to adapt. For religion to do so they have to come to the realization that many of their stories need to be treated as fables and taught as such. Jonah and the Whale,  David and Goliath, Noah and the Ark, Jesus walking across water need to be presented differently. I am not against spirituality but  I believe when you cut through all BS, for lack of a better word, there are very valuable thoughts and ideas at the core of Christianity and other religions. Removing the gods, saviors and saints will only help the core messages at the root of every religion actually grow.    

[smj]

As we evolve and our knowledge of the universe expands people will no longer need religion to fill in gaps. IMO, the "mystical primary force" is organized religion's weakest selling point. As you said religion will need to adapt. For religion to do so they have to come to the realization that many of their stories need to be treated as fables and taught as such. Jonah and the Whale,  David and Goliath, Noah and the Ark, Jesus walking across water need to be presented differently. I am not against spirituality but  I believe when you cut through all BS, for lack of a better word, there are very valuable thoughts and ideas at the core of Christianity and other religions. Removing the gods, saviors and saints will only help the core messages at the root of every religion actually grow.    

Perhaps people need to come to the realization they aren't fables just because they might not be easy to believe.  Some may be parables like the Rich Man and Lazarus story but I believe all the miracles of Jesus' ministry were true.  The problem is without the fabric of the Bible that ties the Gospel together there is no philosophy that holds water.  What you are suggesting is that humanism can result in society creating a utopia where people act selflessly for the greater good.  I agree it sounds awesome but it is not religion that makes this impossible.  It is human nature and I propose history has adequately taught us that people, while capable of doing good, cannot overcome their basic nature to BE good (or good enough).  Removing God from the equation only makes things worse as evidenced by many countries like Russia that have largely been able to do just that.