OT: The Theology Thread

[Drunkard]

Just wondering, out of curiosity mostly,  if you don't believe in the paschal mystery, and the Eucharist, or the sacraments,  why would you vehemently disagree with 6. Why should women administer sacraments  you don't believe in anyway? 

 

2ForTripping nailed it. On a personal level I don't care about the sacraments or who administers them, but many cultures use religion as an excuse to place women in a subservient or 2nd class role. The Catholic church does this and many in the Muslim community also seem to do it, although on a much larger/worse scale with the beekeeper suits, their rules about women not being able to drive, or leave the house without a man, and the double standards they have about things like adultery/infidelity. I think equality is important although I'd rank that issue at or near the bottom compared to things poverty, war, and the environment. Of course, I say that as a male, so I would definitely understand if others ranked these items differently than I do.

[X. Benedict]

2ForTripping nailed it. On a personal level I don't care about the sacraments or who administers them, but many cultures use religion as an excuse to place women in a subservient or 2nd class role. The Catholic church does this and many in the Muslim community also seem to do it, although on a much larger/worse scale with the beekeeper suits, their rules about women not being able to drive, or leave the house without a man, and the double standards they have about things like adultery/infidelity. I think equality is important although I'd rank that issue at or near the bottom compared to things poverty, war, and the environment. Of course, I say that as a male, so I would definitely understand if others ranked these items differently than I do.

 

Thanks. I was just wondering why an atheist would have any passion at all for that issue, already rejecting christian ecclesiology. 

 

I read it in this way by analogy:  that someone against standing armies altogether, might be especially bothered by how those armies choose their colonels. 

[Drunkard]

Thanks. I was just wondering why an atheist would have any passion at all for that issue, already rejecting christian ecclesiology.

 

I read it in this way by analogy: that someone against standing armies altogether, might be especially bothered by how those armies choose their colonels.

No problem, man. I hope I clarified my response. I think their rules should change but I personally mark way down the list of importance and don't think it should be decided by nyone but the church themselves. I think it should be completely up to the church. As a religious organization they should be free to put whatever rules they like in place as long as they aren't breaking any laws. It's their right to put in place whatever rules they like and it's my right to disagree with them.

[darksabre]

Having just read the transcript of the Pope's speech from today I have some observations to make later this evening. I think he was very careful about what he did and didn't say. And even if the message is lost on our Congressional representatives it won't be lost on me. I think I heard him loud and clear, even if I am just an atheist :lol:

[Doohicksie]

Here's the thing I don't get:  Why to conservatives feel the need to have the government control reproductive rights, but not control taking care of the poor?  To the latter, they say it's not the government's job.  Okay, if you say so.  But if you're not going to use the government as an instrument of your religious beliefs in the latter case, why do you insist on using it in the former?

 

I'm really getting sick of the hypocrisy. 

[darksabre]

Here's the thing I don't get: Why to conservatives feel the need to have the government control reproductive rights, but not control taking care of the poor? To the latter, they say it's not the government's job. Okay, if you say so. But if you're not going to use the government as an instrument of your religious beliefs in the latter case, why do you insist on using it in the former?

 

I'm really getting sick of the hypocrisy.

In a nut shell I believe this was the core of the Pope's message. I'll show why later, but it seemed to me that he was asking US citizens (and our elected leaders) to perhaps spend more time worrying about how we treat people after they're born and throughout their lives, rather than focusing so much attention on what to do with those who are not yet born. He calls for a valuing of people at all stages of life which, yes includes the unborn, but more importantly perhaps includes everyone else. You'll notice he only focuses on problems that affect us after we're brought into the world. I think that was his intention.

[Doohicksie]

A lot like Bernie Sanders's message at Liberty University.

[JJFIVEOH]

Here's the thing I don't get:  Why to conservatives feel the need to have the government control reproductive rights, but not control taking care of the poor?  To the latter, they say it's not the government's job.  Okay, if you say so.  But if you're not going to use the government as an instrument of your religious beliefs in the latter case, why do you insist on using it in the former?

 

I'm really getting sick of the hypocrisy. 

 

Without hypocrisy they have no fuel.

[K-9]

Here's the thing I don't get:  Why to conservatives feel the need to have the government control reproductive rights, but not control taking care of the poor?  To the latter, they say it's not the government's job.  Okay, if you say so.  But if you're not going to use the government as an instrument of your religious beliefs in the latter case, why do you insist on using it in the former?

 

I'm really getting sick of the hypocrisy. 

Agree wholeheartedly here. One of the reasons I left the Republican party in the 80s was the increasing influence of the Christian Coalition and the Moral Majority on party politics. The conservatives of my dad's era like Goldwater and the like, would have been appalled had how they were co-opted. IMO, hypocrisy only begins to describe it. 

[Drunkard]

Here's the thing I don't get:  Why to conservatives feel the need to have the government control reproductive rights, but not control taking care of the poor?  To the latter, they say it's not the government's job.  Okay, if you say so.  But if you're not going to use the government as an instrument of your religious beliefs in the latter case, why do you insist on using it in the former?

 

I'm really getting sick of the hypocrisy. 

 

It's their love the fetus, hate the baby mantra. The majority of people who have abortions are poor, single women, which also just happens to be the group that is most likely to collect welfare. So they want to get all the takers off welfare but then want to force women to have kids they can't afford. The cognitive dissonance is really quite baffling. Then add in the fact that they are against raising the minimum wage which would help getting people working at crappy jobs off the welfare system by forcing places like McDonalds, Burger King, and Wal-Mart to pay them enough to live without government assistance and their infatuation with guns and wars while claiming to be Christian and you have the trifecta of hypocrisy.  

[TrueBlueGED]

Agree wholeheartedly here. One of the reasons I left the Republican party in the 80s was the increasing influence of the Christian Coalition and the Moral Majority on party politics. The conservatives of my dad's era like Goldwater and the like, would have been appalled had how they were co-opted. IMO, hypocrisy only begins to describe it.

Yea, Goldwater and the like much preferred to have southern racists co-opt the party ;)

[2ForTripping]

I am an atheist and feel that right wants the agenda of their morality forced upon all citizens.  I am a native Georgian slap in the middle of the bible belt and dealing with these folks is awful. Perhaps if they behaved more like their Jesus and less Christian we'd be better off.

[K-9]

Yea, Goldwater and the like much preferred to have southern racists co-opt the party ;)

Southern racists co-opted the Democratic party as well. 

 

The larger point is that conservatism has taken such a hard turn to the right since the 80s, that Goldwater conservatives wouldn't recognize the party. And I imagine they are spinning on spits as a result. Maybe this would be better food for thought in the politics thread. Like a religious zealot, I have co-opted this thread. 

[Doohicksie]

Yea, Goldwater and the like much preferred to have southern racists co-opt the party ;)

 

Pretty much the same thing, innit?

Southern racists co-opted the Democratic party as well.

 

Not anymore.  They all became Reagan Democrats, then Republicans.

[TrueBlueGED]

Southern racists co-opted the Democratic party as well.

 

The larger point is that conservatism has taken such a hard turn to the right since the 80s, that Goldwater conservatives wouldn't recognize the party. And I imagine they are spinning on spits as a result. Maybe this would be better food for thought in the politics thread. Like a religious zealot, I have co-opted this thread.

Nah, Southern racists didn't co-opt the Democratic party, they were the Democratic party (until around FDR anyway), if ya catch my meaning :)

 

But that's all besides the point. All I really meant was Goldwater shouldn't be trotted out as some shining example of not letting a far wing of the party control it. It was a different far wing, sure, but he downright pursued and encouraged it to happen.

Edited September 24, 2015 by TrueBlueGED

[darksabre]

I don't want to break up the body of his text so I will mark my comments with bolded and bracketed numbers. These comments are all my own and I have not read any other analyses of this speech. 

 

 

 

 

Mr. Vice-President,

 

Mr. Speaker,

 

Honorable Members of Congress,

Dear Friends,

 

I am most grateful for your invitation to address this Joint Session of Congress in “the land of the free and the home of the brave”. I would like to think that the reason for this is that I too am a son of this great continent, from which we have all received so much and toward which we share a common responsibility.

 

Each son or daughter of a given country has a mission, a personal and social responsibility. Your own responsibility as members of Congress is to enable this country, by your legislative activity, to grow as a nation. You are the face of its people, their representatives. You are called to defend and preserve the dignity of your fellow citizens in the tireless and demanding pursuit of the common good, for this is the chief aim of all politics. A political society endures when it seeks, as a vocation, to satisfy common needs by stimulating the growth of all its members, especially those in situations of greater vulnerability or risk. Legislative activity is always based on care for the people. To this you have been invited, called and convened by those who elected you. [1]

 

Yours is a work which makes me reflect in two ways on the figure of Moses. On the one hand, the patriarch and lawgiver of the people of Israel symbolizes the need of peoples to keep alive their sense of unity by means of just legislation. On the other, the figure of Moses leads us directly to God and thus to the transcendent dignity of the human being. Moses provides us with a good synthesis of your work: you are asked to protect, by means of the law, the image and likeness fashioned by God on every human face. [2]

 

Today I would like not only to address you, but through you the entire people of the United States. Here, together with their representatives, I would like to take this opportunity to dialogue with the many thousands of men and women who strive each day to do an honest day’s work, to bring home their daily bread, to save money and –one step at a time – to build a better life for their families. These are men and women who are not concerned simply with paying their taxes, but in their own quiet way sustain the life of society. They generate solidarity by their actions, and they create organizations which offer a helping hand to those most in need. [3]

 

I would also like to enter into dialogue with the many elderly persons who are a storehouse of wisdom forged by experience, and who seek in many ways, especially through volunteer work, to share their stories and their insights. I know that many of them are retired, but still active; they keep working to build up this land. I also want to dialogue with all those young people who are working to realize their great and noble aspirations, who are not led astray by facile proposals, and who face difficult situations, often as a result of immaturity on the part of many adults. I wish to dialogue with all of you, and I would like to do so through the historical memory of your people. [4]

 

My visit takes place at a time when men and women of good will are marking the anniversaries of several great Americans. The complexities of history and the reality of human weakness notwithstanding, these men and women, for all their many differences and limitations, were able by hard work and self-sacrifice – some at the cost of their lives – to build a better future. They shaped fundamental values which will endure forever in the spirit of the American people. A people with this spirit can live through many crises, tensions and conflicts, while always finding the resources to move forward, and to do so with dignity. These men and women offer us a way of seeing and interpreting reality. In honoring their memory, we are inspired, even amid conflicts, and in the here and now of each day, to draw upon our deepest cultural reserves. 

I would like to mention four of these Americans: Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Dorothy Day and Thomas Merton. [5]

 

This year marks the one hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln, the guardian of liberty, who labored tirelessly that “this nation, under God, [might] have a new birth of freedom”. Building a future of freedom requires love of the common good and cooperation in a spirit of subsidiarity and solidarity. [6]

 

All of us are quite aware of, and deeply worried by, the disturbing social and political situation of the world today. Our world is increasingly a place of violent conflict, hatred and brutal atrocities, committed even in the name of God and of religion. We know that no religion is immune from forms of individual delusion or ideological extremism. This means that we must be especially attentive to every type of fundamentalism, whether religious or of any other kind. A delicate balance is required to combat violence perpetrated in the name of a religion, an ideology or an economic system, while also safeguarding religious freedom, intellectual freedom and individual freedoms. But there is another temptation which we must especially guard against: the simplistic reductionism which sees only good or evil; or, if you will, the righteous and sinners. The contemporary world, with its open wounds which affect so many of our brothers and sisters, demands that we confront every form of polarization which would divide it into these two camps. We know that in the attempt to be freed of the enemy without, we can be tempted to feed the enemy within. To imitate the hatred and violence of tyrants and murderers is the best way to take their place. That is something which you, as a people, reject. [7]

 

Our response must instead be one of hope and healing, of peace and justice. We are asked to summon the courage and the intelligence to resolve today’s many geopolitical and economic crises. Even in the developed world, the effects of unjust structures and actions are all too apparent. Our efforts must aim at restoring hope, righting wrongs, maintaining commitments, and thus promoting the well-being of individuals and of peoples. We must move forward together, as one, in a renewed spirit of fraternity and solidarity, cooperating generously for the common good.

 

The challenges facing us today call for a renewal of that spirit of cooperation, which has accomplished so much good throughout the history of the United States. The complexity, the gravity and the urgency of these challenges demand that we pool our resources and talents, and resolve to support one another, with respect for our differences and our convictions of conscience. [8]

 

In this land, the various religious denominations have greatly contributed to building and strengthening society. It is important that today, as in the past, the voice of faith continue to be heard, for it is a voice of fraternity and love, which tries to bring out the best in each person and in each society. Such cooperation is a powerful resource in the battle to eliminate new global forms of slavery, born of grave injustices which can be overcome only through new policies and new forms of social consensus. [9]

 

Politics is, instead, an expression of our compelling need to live as one, in order to build as one the greatest common good: that of a community which sacrifices particular interests in order to share, in justice and peace, its goods, its interests, its social life. I do not underestimate the difficulty that this involves, but I encourage you in this effort. [10]

 

Here too I think of the march which Martin Luther King led from Selma to Montgomery fifty years ago as part of the campaign to fulfill his “dream” of full civil and political rights for African Americans. That dream continues to inspire us all. I am happy that America continues to be, for many, a land of “dreams”. Dreams which lead to action, to participation, to commitment. Dreams which awaken what is deepest and truest in the life of a people.

 

In recent centuries, millions of people came to this land to pursue their dream of building a future in freedom. We, the people of this continent, are not fearful of foreigners, because most of us were once foreigners. I say this to you as the son of immigrants, knowing that so many of you are also descended from immigrants. Tragically, the rights of those who were here long before us were not always respected. For those peoples and their nations, from the heart of American democracy, I wish to reaffirm my highest esteem and appreciation. Those first contacts were often turbulent and violent, but it is difficult to judge the past by the criteria of the present. Nonetheless, when the stranger in our midst appeals to us, we must not repeat the sins and the errors of the past. We must resolve now to live as nobly and as justly as possible, as we educate new generations not to turn their back on our “neighbors” and everything around us. Building a nation calls us to recognize that we must constantly relate to others, rejecting a mindset of hostility in order to adopt one of reciprocal subsidiarity, in a constant effort to do our best. I am confident that we can do this. [11]

 

Our world is facing a refugee crisis of a magnitude not seen since the Second World War. This presents us with great challenges and many hard decisions. On this continent, too, thousands of persons are led to travel north in search of a better life for themselves and for their loved ones, in search of greater opportunities. Is this not what we want for our own children? We must not be taken aback by their numbers, but rather view them as persons, seeing their faces and listening to their stories, trying to respond as best we can to their situation. To respond in a way which is always humane, just and fraternal. We need to avoid a common temptation nowadays: to discard whatever proves troublesome. Let us remember the Golden Rule: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” (Mt 7:12).

 

This Rule points us in a clear direction. Let us treat others with the same passion and compassion with which we want to be treated. Let us seek for others the same possibilities which we seek for ourselves. Let us help others to grow, as we would like to be helped ourselves. In a word, if we want security, let us give security; if we want life, let us give life; if we want opportunities, let us provide opportunities. The yardstick we use for others will be the yardstick which time will use for us. The Golden Rule also reminds us of our responsibility to protect and defend human life at every stage of its development. [12]

 

This conviction has led me, from the beginning of my ministry, to advocate at different levels for the global abolition of the death penalty. I am convinced that this way is the best, since every life is sacred, every human person is endowed with an inalienable dignity, and society can only benefit from the rehabilitation of those convicted of crimes. Recently my brother bishops here in the United States renewed their call for the abolition of the death penalty. Not only do I support them, but I also offer encouragement to all those who are convinced that a just and necessary punishment must never exclude the dimension of hope and the goal of rehabilitation. 

 

In these times when social concerns are so important, I cannot fail to mention the Servant of God Dorothy Day, who founded the Catholic Worker Movement. Her social activism, her passion for justice and for the cause of the oppressed, were inspired by the Gospel, her faith, and the example of the saints. [13]

 

How much progress has been made in this area in so many parts of the world! How much has been done in these first years of the third millennium to raise people out of extreme poverty! I know that you share my conviction that much more still needs to be done, and that in times of crisis and economic hardship a spirit of global solidarity must not be lost. At the same time I would encourage you to keep in mind all those people around us who are trapped in a cycle of poverty. They too need to be given hope. The fight against poverty and hunger must be fought constantly and on many fronts, especially in its causes. I know that many Americans today, as in the past, are working to deal with this problem.

 

It goes without saying that part of this great effort is the creation and distribution of wealth. The right use of natural resources, the proper application of technology and the harnessing of the spirit of enterprise are essential elements of an economy which seeks to be modern, inclusive and sustainable. “Business is a noble vocation, directed to producing wealth and improving the world. It can be a fruitful source of prosperity for the area in which it operates, especially if it sees the creation of jobs as an essential part of its service to the common good” (Laudato Si’, 129). This common good also includes the earth, a central theme of the encyclical which I recently wrote in order to “enter into dialogue with all people about our common home” (ibid., 3). “We need a conversation which includes everyone, since the environmental challenge we are undergoing, and its human roots, concern and affect us all” (ibid., 14). [14]

 

In Laudato Si’, I call for a courageous and responsible effort to “redirect our steps” (ibid., 61), and to avert the most serious effects of the environmental deterioration caused by human activity. I am convinced that we can make a difference and I have no doubt that the United States – and this Congress – have an important role to play. Now is the time for courageous actions and strategies, aimed at implementing a “culture of care” (ibid., 231) and “an integrated approach to combating poverty, restoring dignity to the excluded, and at the same time protecting nature” (ibid., 139). “We have the freedom needed to limit and direct technology” (ibid., 112); “to devise intelligent ways of… developing and limiting our power” (ibid., 78); and to put technology “at the service of another type of progress, one which is healthier, more human, more social, more integral” (ibid., 112). In this regard, I am confident that America’s outstanding academic and research institutions can make a vital contribution in the years ahead. [15]

 

A century ago, at the beginning of the Great War, which Pope Benedict XV termed a “pointless slaughter”, another notable American was born: the Cistercian monk Thomas Merton. He remains a source of spiritual inspiration and a guide for many people. In his autobiography he wrote: “I came into the world. Free by nature, in the image of God, I was nevertheless the prisoner of my own violence and my own selfishness, in the image of the world into which I was born. That world was the picture of Hell, full of men like myself, loving God, and yet hating him; born to love him, living instead in fear of hopeless self-contradictory hungers”. Merton was above all a man of prayer, a thinker who challenged the certitudes of his time and opened new horizons for souls and for the Church. He was also a man of dialogue, a promoter of peace between peoples and religions. [16]

 

From this perspective of dialogue, I would like to recognize the efforts made in recent months to help overcome historic differences linked to painful episodes of the past. It is my duty to build bridges and to help all men and women, in any way possible, to do the same. When countries which have been at odds resume the path of dialogue – a dialogue which may have been interrupted for the most legitimate of reasons – new opportunities open up for all. This has required, and requires, courage and daring, which is not the same as irresponsibility. A good political leader is one who, with the interests of all in mind, seizes the moment in a spirit of openness and pragmatism. A good political leader always opts to initiate processes rather than possessing spaces (cf. Evangelii Gaudium, 222-223). [17]

 

Being at the service of dialogue and peace also means being truly determined to minimize and, in the long term, to end the many armed conflicts throughout our world. Here we have to ask ourselves: Why are deadly weapons being sold to those who plan to inflict untold suffering on individuals and society? Sadly, the answer, as we all know, is simply for money: money that is drenched in blood, often innocent blood. In the face of this shameful and culpable silence, it is our duty to confront the problem and to stop the arms trade. [18]

 

Three sons and a daughter of this land, four individuals and four dreams: Lincoln, liberty; Martin Luther King, liberty in plurality and non-exclusion; Dorothy Day, social justice and the rights of persons; and Thomas Merton, the capacity for dialogue and openness to God.

 

Four representatives of the American people.

 

I will end my visit to your country in Philadelphia, where I will take part in the World Meeting of Families. It is my wish that throughout my visit the family should be a recurrent theme. How essential the family has been to the building of this country! And how worthy it remains of our support and encouragement! Yet I cannot hide my concern for the family, which is threatened, perhaps as never before, from within and without. Fundamental relationships are being called into question, as is the very basis of marriage and the family. I can only reiterate the importance and, above all, the richness and the beauty of family life. [19]

 

In particular, I would like to call attention to those family members who are the most vulnerable, the young. For many of them, a future filled with countless possibilities beckons, yet so many others seem disoriented and aimless, trapped in a hopeless maze of violence, abuse and despair. Their problems are our problems. We cannot avoid them. We need to face them together, to talk about them and to seek effective solutions rather than getting bogged down in discussions. At the risk of oversimplifying, we might say that we live in a culture which pressures young people not to start a family, because they lack possibilities for the future. Yet this same culture presents others with so many options that they too are dissuaded from starting a family. [20]

 

A nation can be considered great when it defends liberty as Lincoln did, when it fosters a culture which enables people to “dream” of full rights for all their brothers and sisters, as Martin Luther King sought to do; when it strives for justice and the cause of the oppressed, as Dorothy Day did by her tireless work, the fruit of a faith which becomes dialogue and sows peace in the contemplative style of Thomas Merton.

 

In these remarks I have sought to present some of the richness of your cultural heritage, of the spirit of the American people. It is my desire that this spirit continue to develop and grow, so that as many young people as possible can inherit and dwell in a land which has inspired so many people to dream.[21]

 

God bless America!

1. Solid opening. Here we see mention of the idea of "social contract", where those who have more are expected to help those who have less, and that it is the duty of the government to help citizens fulfill this contract for "the common good".

2. Essentially "accept people as they are since they are all created in God's image and therefore equal". Legislate accordingly.

3. More social contract. We work not only for ourselves and our families but also for society as a whole. We are unified through compassion.

4. Interesting nod to Millennials here. An affirmation that we ought to be displeased with the decision making of the generations prior. Perhaps alluding to things like low wages and the high cost of college that isn't always a good investment. This is also the first hint of his "everyone in every stage of life is important" message.

5. A call here to really try to understand the people who have shaped our nation, especially with respect to civil rights. 

6. "Building a future of freedom requires love of the common good and cooperation in a spirit of subsidiarity and solidarity." What a great line. Subsidiarity is a great word, and essentially implies that neighbor aught to care for neighbor. We need to pay more attention to our communities, local level politics, local level charity. I like it. Be more engaged and love thy neighbor. 

7. Now things start getting juicy. Reject fundamentalism. Reject extremism. In not just religion but government and economy. Some pretty big shots at partisanship and the worship of capitalism. He's made democratic socialist remarks already and I think he's making more here. 

8. Cooperation. Common good. Acceptance of differing views. A call to spend more time identifying and solving problems that affect the most people. Another shot at partisan bickering. 

9. I liked this. An acknowledgement that all religions can contribute to the common good and should not oppose one another in this pursuit. Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc. Find consensus and put aside any differences. 

10. "Seriously, stop being jerks to each other."

11. This paragraph spoke to me, especially regarding issues of Native American interaction. I really got to see the worst in people during the last few years of conflict over the Redskins nickname here in Lancaster. The amount of vitriol that the citizens of Lancaster were able to muster towards the Seneca Nation, our neighbors, was despicable. Lancasterians simply couldn't understand that being nice to the Seneca is something we should want to do. It wasn't a matter of "being PC". It was a matter of loving thy neighbor. Are we seeing a theme with Il Papa's speech here? He proceeds to extend this idea to immigration. He's a man of the South American continent so I believe he feels strongly about the role the US should play with our neighbors to the south. He sees us as a guiding light. He wants us to be neighborly. A little utopian? Maybe. But it's an important message. The people trying to get into this country are not (for the most part) our enemies, and we shouldn't paint them that way. He invokes the "Golden Rule" shortly. 

 

12. This and the next paragraph were the perfect rope-a-dope. Here is where he'll make his only mention of anything related to the topic of abortion or contraception, and he does it very carefully by including it as a small part of a bigger idea. That we need to worry about people at all stages of life, not just the very beginning. You could audibly hear the crowd lean forward awaiting his denouncement of abortion, but it would never come. He starts the next paragraph with a strong phrase that had everyone expecting him to say "the global abolition of ______" where the blank is "abortion", but instead he says "the dealth penalty". Not quite as much applause for that as for the previous line, eh? 

13. Dorothy Day. Interesting. More socialism. The conservatives must have had their stomachs in knots. 

14. Socialism! Distribution of wealth! Climate change! Green energy! Sustainability! I can hear the GOP choking back vomit! 

15. Lead the world through knowledge....

16. ....And not war!

17. Straight up support for the Iran Nuclear Deal? Holy sh*t. 

18. A shot at...every President who has ever given arms to a country in the Middle East? At the very least a shot at war profiteering. Also, gun control?

19. I have no criticism of the Pope here. These are the beliefs of the religion he has dedicated his life to. Marriage between man and woman and the resulting family unit. It is what it is. Regardless, he encourages compassion despite religious discord. Catholicism isn't the only way. 

20. Interesting comment here. I think what he's trying to say here is that while he doesn't approve of contraception, abortion, etc., he understands that there are bigger social issues that influence decision making when it comes to those things. Essentially, "if the world was richer and having a family was easier, things like abortion and contraception would just disappear on their own." Not bad. I don't agree, but I appreciate the sentiment. Fix big picture issues and the smaller problems will solve themselves. He then goes in the other direction and criticizes the trappings of capitalism and greed as destructive. I don't disagree. He's trying to find common ground with non-Catholics. 

 

21. Strong finish. Peace, future, inspiration, spirit, equality, etc. Remind us what America supposedly stands for.

 

Edited September 25, 2015 by d4rksabre

[K-9]

Thanks, d4rk. Great insights here. Greatly appreciated as well. 

[X. Benedict]

I don't want to break up the body of his text so I will mark my comments with bolded and bracketed numbers. These comments are all my own and I have not read any other analyses of this speech.

 

 

 

 

1. Solid opening. Here we see mention of the idea of "social contract", where those who have more are expected to help those who have less, and that it is the duty of the government to help citizens fulfill this contract for "the common good".

2. Essentially "accept people as they are since they are all created in God's image and therefore equal". Legislate accordingly.

3. More social contract. We work not only for ourselves and our families but also for society as a whole. We are unified through compassion.

4. Interesting nod to Millennials here. An affirmation that we ought to be displeased with the decision making of the generations prior. Perhaps alluding to things like low wages and the high cost of college that isn't always a good investment. This is also the first hint of his "everyone in every stage of life is important" message.

5. A call here to really try to understand the people who have shaped our nation, especially with respect to civil rights.

6. "Building a future of freedom requires love of the common good and cooperation in a spirit of subsidiarity and solidarity." What a great line. Subsidiarity is a great word, and essentially implies that neighbor aught to care for neighbor. We need to pay more attention to our communities, local level politics, local level charity. I like it. Be more engaged and love thy neighbor.

7. Now things start getting juicy. Reject fundamentalism. Reject extremism. In not just religion but government and economy. Some pretty big shots at partisanship and the worship of capitalism. He's made democratic socialist remarks already and I think he's making more here.

8. Cooperation. Common good. Acceptance of differing views. A call to spend more time identifying and solving problems that affect the most people. Another shot at partisan bickering.

9. I liked this. An acknowledgement that all religions can contribute to the common good and should not oppose one another in this pursuit. Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc. Find consensus and put aside any differences.

10. "Seriously, stop being jerks to each other."

11. This paragraph spoke to me, especially regarding issues of Native American interaction. I really got to see the worst in people during the last few years of conflict over the Redskins nickname here in Lancaster. The amount of vitriol that the citizens of Lancaster were able to muster towards the Seneca Nation, our neighbors, was despicable. Lancasterians simply couldn't understand that being nice to the Seneca is something we should want to do. It wasn't a matter of "being PC". It was a matter of loving thy neighbor. Are we seeing a theme with Il Papa's speech here? He proceeds to extend this idea to immigration. He's a man of the South American continent so I believe he feels strongly about the role the US should play with our neighbors to the south. He sees us as a guiding light. He wants us to be neighborly. A little utopian? Maybe. But it's an important message. The people trying to get into this country are not (for the most part) our enemies, and we shouldn't paint them that way. He invokes the "Golden Rule" shortly.

 

12. This and the next paragraph were the perfect rope-a-dope. Here is where he'll make his only mention of anything related to the topic of abortion or contraception, and he does it very carefully by including it as a small part of a bigger idea. That we need to worry about people at all stages of life, not just the very beginning. You could audibly hear the crowd lean forward awaiting his denouncement of abortion, but it would never come. He starts the next paragraph with a strong phrase that had everyone expecting him to say "the global abolition of ______" where the blank is "abortion", but instead he says "the dealth penalty". Not quite as much applause for that as for the previous line, eh?

13. Dorothy Day. Interesting. More socialism. The conservatives must have had their stomachs in knots.

 

 

Day was no intellectual lightweight, and is probably better labeled a Christian anarchist. She had no confidence in government to solve the problem of poverty.

 

Enjoyed you musings.

Edited September 25, 2015 by X. Benedict

[darksabre]

Day was no intellectual lightweight, and is probably better labeled a Christian anarchist. She had no confidence in government to solve the problem of poverty.

 

Enjoyed you musings.

Thank you. I appreciate you taking my comments as musings. I didn't want to come off as trying to be the conduit of the conduit. I just wanted to present my own interpretation without prior influence from outside commentary, even if it might have guided my interpretation in some spots. 

[darksabre]

Thanks, d4rk. Great insights here. Greatly appreciated as well. 

 

Somehow I scrolled past your comment. Thank you as well. 

[spndnchz]

Jeebus. Stop making me read stuff

[Drunkard]

Thanks for Quoting the Pope's entire speech and providing your own commentary, Dark. The Pope may not have a vote but I imagine he'd be way more likely to vote for Bernie Sanders than any of the other candidates, including the other Democrats and particularly over the Republicans who promote war, guns, trickle down economics, and discrimination against those who follow a different set of beliefs. I can see why they elected Francis to be the Pope. If all Christians tried to emulate Jesus the way he does, I wouldn't have any issues with their religion.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

On this second day of Eid al Adha I just want to say that I love this Pope.

[X. Benedict]

On this second day of Eid al Adha I just want to say that I love this Pope.

At Vespers in St. Patrick's in NY last night he started with prayers for the dead of the tragedy in Mecca.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

At Vespers in St. Patrick's in NY last night he started with prayers for the dead of the tragedy in Mecca.  

 

I did not know that.

 

I nominate this Pope for Pope For Life status ...  ;)