OT: The Theology Thread

[I am Defecting]

Here, we can look beyond the Big Bang to the immeasurable, inexplicable, preternatural and boundless Mystery that is the Theos. Some aspects of the Universe will never be solved in The Science Thread. Here, once and for all, we prove or disprove the very existence of God! Let there be Light!

[inkman]

I'll respond to this as I did the presidential politics thread:

 

Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!

[WildCard]

I like it, but I don't think you can just take theories like the Big Bang out of the Science thread just because they might lead to religion.

 

I'm entirely willing to get into this thread with actual discussion if anyone else is willing.

[I am Defecting]

I'm not exactly sure where the differentiation should be made with Big Bang. This will be interesting. I figure, we've talked about Politics, so Religion or Theology can't be too bad. I figure none of us need take it too seriously. I'm hoping that having this topic open will also keep The Science Thread more focused. We'll see.

[...]

I'm not exactly sure where the differentiation should be made with Big Bang. This will be interesting. I figure, we've talked about Politics, so Religion or Theology can't be too bad. I figure none of us need take it too seriously. I'm hoping that having this topic open will also keep The Science Thread more focused. We'll see.

 

Yeah, the jokesters can come into this thread and bash religious folk here instead of in the science thread, where, ya know, you'd get scorned for making fun of science.

[sabills]

To me there is no reason that science and religion can't coincide. It would make sense that a god first created physical laws and such as building blocks to create the universe, like a computer programmer. Noone writes code in binary. Binary begat assembly, which begat basic, which begat C and so forth. Likewise, any god could have created those laws and forces to create the universe, not one bit at a time, but in giant swaths.

[Drunkard]

Yeah, the jokesters can come into this thread and bash religious folk here instead of in the science thread, where, ya know, you'd get scorned for making fun of science.

 

It's not about bashing religion. It's bashing the WRONG religions. The Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists, Mormons, and Jews all got it wrong.

 

All Hail his noodly goodness!

 

 

He boiled for your sins.

[darksabre]

To me there is no reason that science and religion can't coincide. It would make sense that a god first created physical laws and such as building blocks to create the universe, like a computer programmer. Noone writes code in binary. Binary begat assembly, which begat basic, which begat C and so forth. Likewise, any god could have created those laws and forces to create the universe, not one bit at a time, but in giant swaths.

 

At some point they have to coincide because I'm not sure how else we could explain the universe going from nothing to something. It had to start somewhere, but the "how" of that is what boggles my mind. So we know the big bang happened. But how did everything come together to make that happen? Was there something else before it? There's a piece in all of this that we don't have figured out.

[pastajoe]

It will all be explained in the new Star Wars movies.

[Stoner]

Transient idiopathic arrhythmia.

[Doohicksie]

Suggested Reading: Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller. The writing is awkward, even uncomfortable, at times, as Miller pokes holes in both the purely scientific and purely religious mindsets, but eventually he brings them together in a reconciliation, explaining how some of the physical phenomena (right down to quantum physics) we observe in the universe are compatible with, or even an indicator of, a superior creator being.

 

One of the concepts is a refutation of Einstein's famous remark that "God does not play dice." Miller says that yes, God does play dice, but you have to remember that he's also "the house," i.e., the game (the universe) was designed such that his ends would, with a high degree of probability, be achieved.

[I am Defecting]

This whole dark matter thing has got me thinking. We can deduce that stealth technology is superior to non-stealth technology. An invisibility cloak seems like a definite advantage.

 

Much like we can infer unseen "dark matter" affecting the gravitational forces in galaxies far far away, shouldn't we also be able to observe otherwise inexplicable effects in our own backyards, and attribute these to a stealthy powerful force of some kind? Are we looking for the calling cards or evidence of these forces, closely enough here, at home?

 

It's strange, that as Scientists look big towards the outer observable limits of space, they make tiny inferences at the sub-atomic level. It's a clear paradox that, in theory, the biggest collective thing in the Universe, and perhaps also the tiniest, "dark matter" or "dark energy" cannot be observed. Maybe there are parallels on Earth by which we can seek to understand this phenomenon.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Yuri Olesha

[Weave]

Suggested Reading: Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller. The writing is awkward, even uncomfortable, at times, as Miller pokes holes in both the purely scientific and purely religious mindsets, but eventually he brings them together in a reconciliation, explaining how some of the physical phenomena (right down to quantum physics) we observe in the universe are compatible with, or even an indicator of, a superior creator being.

 

One of the concepts is a refutation of Einstein's famous remark that "God does not play dice." Miller says that yes, God does play dice, but you have to remember that he's also "the house," i.e., the game (the universe) was designed such that his ends would, with a high degree of probability, be achieved.

 

Huh. I'll have to look for that one.

[MattPie]

At some point they have to coincide because I'm not sure how else we could explain the universe going from nothing to something. It had to start somewhere, but the "how" of that is what boggles my mind. So we know the big bang happened. But how did everything come together to make that happen? Was there something else before it? There's a piece in all of this that we don't have figured out.

 

The only thing that makes sense is the time as humans perceive it (a straightforward progression) just isn't the only way it works. Otherwise you're right, there's no way there can be a beginning.

[frissonic]

At some point they have to coincide because I'm not sure how else we could explain the universe going from nothing to something. It had to start somewhere, but the "how" of that is what boggles my mind. So we know the big bang happened. But how did everything come together to make that happen? Was there something else before it? There's a piece in all of this that we don't have figured out.

 

Mormon here ... so, you know ... take this for what it is.

 

In the Book of Mormon, there are scriptures that discuss the very nature of God, how He is able to "control the elements," and *why* He is able to control those elements. The elements obey His commands because He has earned their respect through his absolute and utter compliance with eternal laws, such as physics, chemistry, etc. In short, He obeys natural laws and does nothing to contradict those laws.

 

With our understanding of what these natural laws are, we have a good grasp on how the universe was created. We have a great understanding of how stars and planets form. We know the speed of light, what constitutes a "quark," and why black holes exist. However, with all of that understanding, I don't think we've even scratched the surface of all the natural laws that exist, and how they all interact within the universe. God, by way of comparison, does, and He uses those laws to create--whether that creation is a birth or a death of an object (think about that for a second ...).

 

Now, here's (just one of many examples) where Mormon theology differentiates from mainstream Christianity and religion in general: *God can, indeed, lose His power to be God.* How does this happen? Through His disobedience to natural laws. Some of these laws are inexorably tied to justice and mercy--the building blocks of our ability to return and live with Him again. "No unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God." If God plays favorites and lets in someone who's sinned without the proper procedures of repentence, He loses all his powers, the elements revolt, and at that point, we're all screwed.

 

God walks a very, very fine line, keeping this universe running. He is bound by title to obey natural laws.

 

And don't even get me started on *where* God lives. That's another whole topic that Neil Degrasse Tyson discussed in one of the Cosmos eps, though I'm fairly confident that, in his atheistic stance, didn't mean to discuss, but boy howdy ... when you stop and think about who God is, and study "the deeper doctrines" of Mormonism ... it was incredibly interesting hearing his take on certain aspects of things like black holes.

 

Are these theories out there? By all accounts, yes. Are they plausible? Sure--but so is the possibility that Arizona will indeed become a bay when California slides into the Pacific and mom comes 'round to put it back the way it ought to be ...

[bob_sauve28]

what was there before God?

[BagBoy]

How do we know the Big Bang was indeed "the beginning"? Who is to say the universe hasn't contracted down to a tiny dot and then expoded out an infinite number of times? No scientist worth his salt would ever say that without concrete proof.

 

This is one reason why I don't like religion. Proof is not a requirement for the devout. They need only be sure of their convictions, and the facts be damned if they get in the way of their dogma. Religion is borne out of man's unwillingness to say I DON'T KNOW. Let me take you to a scene in old Scandinavia.....

 

----[sven and Broomhilda hear a terrifyingly loud clap of thunder.]

--BROOMHILDA: What the heck was that?

--SVEN: Well.....It was um errr ahhh.....Thor, the mighty thunder god, yeah that's the ticket, Thor.

--BROOMHILDA: Why did he make that horrible sound?

--SVEN: Well.....he's um errr ahhh just saying that, well you know, that we better sacrifice some children or things will get worse.

--BROOMHILDA: Okay, which one should we kill first?

 

I have a coworker who is great, thoughtful, intelligent guy. He has chosen to believe that the Bible should be interpreted literally, and that anyone who does not accept Jesus as their savior will burn in hell for eternity after they die. I asked him 'what about poor babies that die before they are able to comprehend and accept Jesus, let alone speak?'. He just shrugged as if to say, 'yeah, it sucks for them'. I asked him 'what about people isolated in remote jungles who have never had the ability to learn about Jesus?'. I got the same response. So in a determined effort to understand, he has adopted a philosophy where his god takes innocent babies and sends them to hell for eternity through no fault of their own. That is not a god. That is a devil!

 

I happen to believe that Mary Magdalene was not a ###### and was actually Jesus' wife and they had kids together. Good thing I'm not a bishop or I'd be out of a job. I also believe Jesus did some very bad things in his younger days (didn't we all?), but this is also blasphemous. To me religion should be about love, and that's all. How can it possibly ever get to love, when it can't even get to truth?

[I am Defecting]

what was there before God?

 

Beats me. Maybe we're parabolas within larger parabolas. The focus is the present, There are limits on each side, and the Continuum gets closer and closer to the outer limits without ever transecting. I admit that's an awfully abstract way of thinking about it. I don't know.

[frissonic]

How do we know the Big Bang was indeed "the beginning"? Who is to say the universe hasn't contracted down to a tiny dot and then expoded out an infinite number of times? No scientist worth his salt would ever say that without concrete proof.

 

This is one reason why I don't like religion. Proof is not a requirement for the devout. They need only be sure of their convictions, and the facts be damned if they get in the way of their dogma. Religion is borne out of man's unwillingness to say I DON'T KNOW. Let me take you to a scene in old Scandinavia.....

 

 

Rare as we are, there *are* those who believe that science and God are absolutely intertwined. I have no proof for God. I have my personal convictions and beliefs, but no tangible proof. My "proof" lies in science, and even that is tremulous at best.

 

I was riding the bus one day to work back in the mid-90s. Bus driver was listening to some NPR station. The hot topic of the day was how someone had just discovered that eggs are contain 1/3 the amount of cholesterol that they originally thought. No, I don't know who "they" are, but whoever constitutes that group, they determined that you can eat 3 times the amount of eggs before clogging your arteries. Or something like that.

 

My point is this: science discovers new things all the time. ALL. THE. TIME. Would it surprise anyone to learn that we are not the only inhabitants of this universe? or even this galaxy? Probably not, but we have no definitive proof that aliens exist ... just a list of exo-planets that keeps growing and growing. Someday, we'll have that proof, and it will come through study and patience. Do we have proof that GOd exists? No, and I highly doubt that any amount of study and patience will change that. Religion is faith-based for a reason.

 

I dunno. I don't have a problem with either. I love them both. Science fascinates me. So does the concept of God.

[sabills]

In the Book of Mormon, there are scriptures that discuss the very nature of God, how He is able to "control the elements," and *why* He is able to control those elements. The elements obey His commands because He has earned their respect through his absolute and utter compliance with eternal laws, such as physics, chemistry, etc. In short, He obeys natural laws and does nothing to contradict those laws.

 

Interesting, that was the other way I'd thought aboutit: the laws existed, any god or gods that exist have to work inside of them and use them, manipulate them.

[MattPie]

In the Book of Mormon, there are scriptures that discuss the very nature of God, how He is able to "control the elements," and *why* He is able to control those elements. The elements obey His commands because He has earned their respect through his absolute and utter compliance with eternal laws, such as physics, chemistry, etc. In short, He obeys natural laws and does nothing to contradict those laws.

SNIP

Now, here's (just one of many examples) where Mormon theology differentiates from mainstream Christianity and religion in general: *God can, indeed, lose His power to be God.* How does this happen? Through His disobedience to natural laws. Some of these laws are inexorably tied to justice and mercy--the building blocks of our ability to return and live with Him again. "No unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God." If God plays favorites and lets in someone who's sinned without the proper procedures of repentence, He loses all his powers, the elements revolt, and at that point, we're all screwed.

 

God walks a very, very fine line, keeping this universe running. He is bound by title to obey natural laws.

 

Thank you for the short-version of the Mormon concept of God, it's very interesting. After rolling it around in my head for awhile, I have (probably the big) question: are there a finite number of natural laws, and if we as humans learn all of them (and how to manipulate matter according to each), do we become gods ourselves?

[PromoTheRobot]

Thank you for the short-version of the Mormon concept of God, it's very interesting. After rolling it around in my head for awhile, I have (probably the big) question: are there a finite number of natural laws, and if we as humans learn all of them (and how to manipulate matter according to each), do we become gods ourselves?

That is one of the less-talked-about aspects of Mormonism, that the God we worship was at one time mortal and ascended to being a deity. And that is the end game of all humans: to ascend to role of god of our own solar system or galaxy somewhere in the universe.

Edited December 2, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[darksabre]

 

That is one of the less-talked-about aspects of Mormonism, that the God we worship was at one time mortal and ascended to being a deity. And that is the end game of all humans: to ascend to role of god of our own solar system or galaxy somewhere in the universe.

 

So the universe came before God?

[Stoner]

what was there before God?

 

Golisano.

[wjag]

what was there before God?

 

od? or Fod?

Edited December 2, 2014 by wjag