You can't teach an old dog new tricks; or, Why I'm not giving up on Teddy

[darksabre]

Regardless of the discussion about whether or not Ted has a system, I'm very much on the verge of thinking he's failed as a coach here.

 

But I don't think the failure of the Sabres is his to bear alone.

 

When I look at certain players I see the benefit of Nolan. I see how well Myers is playing and how much Gorges has accepted Nolan's philosophy. I see Tyler Ennis doing what he can with what he's got. I see Girgensons doing more than many of us expected him to, and I see a couple goalies giving everything they've got. I see benefits.

 

But I also see a whole bunch of players who, unfairly I think, we expected might change the way they play under Ted. We know Ted is a "if you can't hit the net, hit something else" kind of guy. We thought he might be able to coach that. I think we were wrong.

 

At the end of the day, what you have is a coach with a philosophy, a handful of players who are on board, and a handful of players who aren't. And those in the latter category are doing more harm than those in the former can balance out.

 

We have seven players listed at Center on this team:

 

Ennis

Hodgson

Flynn

Reinhart

Girgensons

McCormick

Mitchell

 

We have three players listed at LW

 

Deslauriers

Foligno

Moulson

 

We have four listed as RW

 

Stafford

Gionta

Kaleta

Stewart

 

A balanced roster should have at MOST 6 "finesse" players. Your bottom six should be your physical presence. Ideally you want some physical presence on your first two lines as well. So really you need like 8 "physical/aggressive" players.

 

Let's list our high energy guys:

 

Kaleta

Deslauriers

McCormick

Girgensons

Mitchell

 

Welp, we've got a fourth line there in Deslauriers, McCormick and Mitchell.

 

And most of a third line/checking line with Kaleta and Girgensons. Let's put Stewart in there and you've got a bottom six.

 

Okay, so who are our 4-5 finesse guys.

 

Ennis

Moulson

Reinhart

Gionta

Hodgson

Flynn

 

That looks a little heavy on the finesse. Three Centers, a RW and a LW. Forget Flynn.

 

So who are our physical scoring types?

 

Stafford

Foligno

 

Oh. Wait, so we've got a solid bottom six, five finesse type scorers, and no one on the top six who brings a physical presence and can score?

 

You want to know why the Ted Nolan Sabres aren't getting anywhere, here's your sign.

 

There is no fixing Drew Stafford. He'll forever be a power-forward without the power.

 

Marcus Foligno? A less talented and just as soft Drew Stafford.

 

These are the two guys single-handedly killing this team right now. Because they are the two guys we needed to buy into the Nolan philosophy who haven't.

 

Get them off this team. Do you hear me GMTM?

[qwksndmonster]

"And then, after the 10th game, GMTM game to d4rk in a dream and said:

 

'I NEED THEM FOR THE TANK.'

 

And that was that."

[darksabre]

"And then, after the 10th game, GMTM game to d4rk in a dream and said:

 

'I NEED THEM FOR THE TANK.'

 

And that was that."

 

I can't abide it. There's no way GMTM is sitting here going "I have to keep these low grade wastes on this team for the future". My hope is that he's seeing that these guys aren't changing no matter who coaches them. I hope that he sees them for how useless they always were and will continue to be.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

In 10 games, Terry Pegula is paying Tyler Myers Infinity Dollars per point.

 

Craig Muni was a better all around defenseman than Myers....

[darksabre]

In 10 games, Terry Pegula is paying Tyler Myers Infinity Dollars per point.

 

Craig Muni was a better all around defenseman than Myers....

 

Outside of scoring stats, Myers is the best defender on the team right now by a long shot. This team could actually be even worse. Think about that one for a moment.

[qwksndmonster]

In 10 games, Terry Pegula is paying Tyler Myers Infinity Dollars per point.

 

Craig Muni was a better all around defenseman than Myers....

Why are you constantly down on one of the only players who's actually playing well under Nolan?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Why are you constantly down on one of the only players who's actually playing well under Nolan?

 

That's the point. Is playing well, "not sucking elephant balls"?

 

The guy has taken in $30 million of Pegula's cash the past 4 years. People are expecting Kane and Towes in return for him. The guy is worse than Hajt, Zhitnik, Smehlik, and Muni at this point.

 

You have to KILL THE VIRUS.

 

Get these F'rs out of here.

 

Tim Murray has allowed Stafford and Myers and Hodgson and Foligno to stick around......meantime they have taken the subway to every bowling alley in the city......

[darksabre]

That's the point. Is playing well, "not sucking elephant balls"?

 

The guy has taken in $30 million of Pegula's cash the past 4 years. People are expecting Kane and Towes in return for him. The guy is worse than Hajt, Zhitnik, Smehlik, and Muni at this point.

 

You have to KILL THE VIRUS.

 

Get these F'rs out of here.

 

Tim Murray has allowed Stafford and Myers and Hodgson and Foligno to stick around......meantime they have taken the subway to every bowling alley in the city......

 

I still don't see the complaint with Myers. What's passed is passed with him. It's not his fault Darcy handed him the contract he did. He's finally starting to play like a top line defender. We know he's never going to play the super physical game at this point. That's what Gorges is for. You don't need Myers to play any way other than what he currently does. We've actually got a round peg in a round hole. Let's leave it there.

[sicknfla]

When Stafford, Stewart, Moulson, Gionta, and Hodgson have one goal between them we have far bigger problems than Myers.

 

Still think GMTM moves him by Christmas though. We have hit rock bottom and he has to do something.

[pi2000]

In 10 games, Terry Pegula is paying Tyler Myers Infinity Dollars per point.

 

Craig Muni was a better all around defenseman than Myers....

 

Myers is playing great. He plays almost 30min a game and is only a -1 on team that's collectively a -22.

 

On the otherhand, Mezaros is already a -10 in 9 games. WTF is he doing here? He's on pace to finish -90.

[qwksndmonster]

That's the point. Is playing well, "not sucking elephant balls"?

 

The guy has taken in $30 million of Pegula's cash the past 4 years. People are expecting Kane and Towes in return for him. The guy is worse than Hajt, Zhitnik, Smehlik, and Muni at this point.

 

You have to KILL THE VIRUS.

 

Get these F'rs out of here.

 

Tim Murray has allowed Stafford and Myers and Hodgson and Foligno to stick around......meantime they have taken the subway to every bowling alley in the city......

What is Myers supposed to do, single handedly win the games? That's what a good player on a bad team looks like. There's a reason good teams like the Red Wings and the Ducks want Myers.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Myers is playing great. He plays almost 30min a game and is only a -1 on team that's collectively a -22.

 

On the otherhand, Mezaros is already a -10 in 9 games. WTF is he doing here? He's on pace to finish -90.

 

How many times was he in the penalty box when a goal was scored against the team?

[darksabre]

How many times was he in the penalty box when a goal was scored against the team?

 

It doesn't matter right now does it? When teams are bad they take penalties. The penalties he's taken are a reflection of what's going on around him, not he himself.

[dudacek]

We have six players we hope can each score 20 goals for us.

They may not 20 collectively.

 

That would be the issue I'd look at first.

[Iron Crotch]

I think something like this is about as good as we can do up front in the near future:

Moulson - Ennis - Stafford

Hodgons - ?Grigo? - Stewart

Foligno - Zemgus - Gionta

Deslauriers - McCormick - Kaleta

 

I still see a huge need for a scoring line center (preferably two). Mitchell is a journeyman and is basically a faster Flynn. Neither brings much of anything. Gionta is clearly a 3rd liner. As much as we love Gus, he is a third line center currently. Ditto Foligno, who will never be more than a 3rd liner. And, Hodgson just doesn't play with any heart and is allergic to defense. No way he can play center.

 

Re: Myers, I think "great" isn't the right term for his play. He is above average on the defensive end for sure. But, his offensive game just isn't there. He is more of a shut down defender with his huge reach than he is a "two-way" up-and-down defender. IMHO, the problem is he just doesn't pass the puck all that well. I'm kind of surprised no one has noticed this. For our ice time leader to have zero points 10 games into the season is pretty telling.

 

On that note, I think we're desperate for an offensive defenseman somewhere in the top-6.

[qwksndmonster]

Myers's offense is fine. Without forwards that score, D men have huge problems creating offense.

[darksabre]

I think something like this is about as good as we can do up front in the near future:

Moulson - Ennis - Stafford

Hodgons - ?Grigo? - Stewart

Foligno - Zemgus - Gionta

Deslauriers - McCormick - Kaleta

 

I still see a huge need for a scoring line center (preferably two). Mitchell is a journeyman and is basically a faster Flynn. Neither brings much of anything. Gionta is clearly a 3rd liner. As much as we love Gus, he is a third line center currently. Ditto Foligno, who will never be more than a 3rd liner. And, Hodgson just doesn't play with any heart and is allergic to defense. No way he can play center.

 

Re: Myers, I think "great" isn't the right term for his play. He is above average on the defensive end for sure. But, his offensive game just isn't there. He is more of a shut down defender with his huge reach than he is a "two-way" up-and-down defender. IMHO, the problem is he just doesn't pass the puck all that well. I'm kind of surprised no one has noticed this. For our ice time leader to have zero points 10 games into the season is pretty telling.

 

On that note, I think we're desperate for an offensive defenseman somewhere in the top-6.

 

I disagree with all of this. Sorry. I think his passing has been fine as well, even on the Power Play. Although Tyler Ennis appears to be the only player who can receive a pass.

[TrueBlueGED]

I think something like this is about as good as we can do up front in the near future:

Moulson - Ennis - Stafford

Hodgons - ?Grigo? - Stewart

Foligno - Zemgus - Gionta

Deslauriers - McCormick - Kaleta

 

I still see a huge need for a scoring line center (preferably two). Mitchell is a journeyman and is basically a faster Flynn. Neither brings much of anything. Gionta is clearly a 3rd liner. As much as we love Gus, he is a third line center currently. Ditto Foligno, who will never be more than a 3rd liner. And, Hodgson just doesn't play with any heart and is allergic to defense. No way he can play center.

 

Re: Myers, I think "great" isn't the right term for his play. He is above average on the defensive end for sure. But, his offensive game just isn't there. He is more of a shut down defender with his huge reach than he is a "two-way" up-and-down defender. IMHO, the problem is he just doesn't pass the puck all that well. I'm kind of surprised no one has noticed this. For our ice time leader to have zero points 10 games into the season is pretty telling.

 

On that note, I think we're desperate for an offensive defenseman somewhere in the top-6.

 

From another perspective, he's playing by far the toughest minutes on the team, and still managing to tilt the ice (well, relative to his teammates) towards the opponents. He's playing against the toughest competition and getting the fewest offensive zone starts among the regular defenders on the team (including forwards, only Stafford, Mitchell, Reinhart, and Girgensons start in the offensive zone less). In reality, he and Gorges have very similar usages (naturally)...Myers' relative Corsi is 1.9, Gorges' is -11. Among defenders, only Ristolainen and Weber have a better relative Corsi, and they're getting wwwaaaaayyyyy easier minutes--Ristolainen is facing garbage competition, while Weber is facing garbage competition and starting in the offensive zone nearly 51% of the time.

 

Short version: I don't think there's a whole heck of a lot of defensemen that could get Myers' usage, combined with the forwards in front of him, and produce much in the way of points. I think he is producing offense, it just isn't resulting in points right now. And yes, I'd still trade him for Mantha.

 

Edit: I just realized I mentioned that Reinhart is getting among the fewest offensive zone starts on the team. And we wonder why he's getting knocked around and struggles to score...yet, he's still 3rd among forwards in relative Corsi. He's doing something right.

Edited October 29, 2014 by TrueBluePhD

[darksabre]

Solid quotes from Teddy in here:

 

http://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/frustrated-ted-nolan-puts-reeling-sabres-through-long-practice-taking-it-easy-is-over/

 

“You give them a little bit of rope and maybe some will hang themselves,” a sweaty Nolan said. “What we saw the last 10 or so games we saw that. Now’s the time, taking it easy is over now. We got to work. I’ll take full responsibility for that. Maybe I didn’t push them hard enough. But today’s the day we have to start.

 

But the Sabres don’t have many loud, emotional players.“Some people are very emotional, some are not,” Nolan said. “Right now, we got a quiet group of athletes. They’re not boisterous, they’re not loud. You don’t try to make something that’s not there. But you have to work with what’s there.

 

”He added: “If we’re quiet, then let’s be a loud quiet.”

 

Nolan cited legendary Philadelphia coach Fred Shero to illustrate his point.“He said, ‘You have to learn to win with what you got, or you don’t win at all,’” he said.

[nfreeman]

I would trade Myers for a really good forward, but not just for the sake of GTFO.

 

If the Sabres continue to play this way, there are a number of forwards whom I would trade for that purpose -- and that list is pretty close to "everyone except Ennis and Zemgus." (And Reinhart, but he doesn't really count because he's hopefully going to be in juniors by next week.)

 

Thanks Darcy!

[qwksndmonster]

From another perspective, he's playing by far the toughest minutes on the team, and still managing to tilt the ice (well, relative to his teammates) towards the opponents. He's playing against the toughest competition and getting the fewest offensive zone starts among the regular defenders on the team (including forwards, only Stafford, Mitchell, Reinhart, and Girgensons start in the offensive zone less). In reality, he and Gorges have very similar usages (naturally)...Myers' relative Corsi is 1.9, Gorges' is -11. Among defenders, only Ristolainen and Weber have a better relative Corsi, and they're getting wwwaaaaayyyyy easier minutes--Ristolainen is facing garbage competition, while Weber is facing garbage competition and starting in the offensive zone nearly 51% of the time.

 

Short version: I don't think there's a whole heck of a lot of defensemen that could get Myers' usage, combined with the forwards in front of him, and produce much in the way of points. I think he is producing offense, it just isn't resulting in points right now. And yes, I'd still trade him for Mantha.

 

Edit: I just realized I mentioned that Reinhart is getting among the fewest offensive zone starts on the team. And we wonder why he's getting knocked around and struggles to score...yet, he's still 3rd among forwards in relative Corsi. He's doing something right.

Great post. I make loud pained grunting noises when I watch wide open Reinhart circle back around to the neutral zone because Cody or Deslauriers just flipped it up the boards..

[darksabre]

Great post. I make loud pained grunting noises when I watch wide open Reinhart circle back around to the neutral zone because Cody or Deslauriers just flipped it up the boards..

 

:lol:

 

I would trade Myers for a really good forward, but not just for the sake of GTFO.

 

If the Sabres continue to play this way, there are a number of forwards whom I would trade for that purpose -- and that list is pretty close to "everyone except Ennis and Zemgus." (And Reinhart, but he doesn't really count because he's hopefully going to be in juniors by next week.)

 

Thanks Darcy!

 

I would consider it if the forward coming back was someone who fits our needs. Specifically someone who actually scores goals and doesn't play like he's got bones made of glass.

[Stoner]

Again! Again! Again!

 

Someone interrupt Craig Patrick's prostate exam. Get him down there. He knows the drill.

[darksabre]

I know people don't like the idea of "they're not trying hard enough". It sounds way too simple doesn't it?

 

But it's the truth. We know it's the truth. It's been the truth for years here. You watch how other teams play. You watch how their players skate and position themselves, and then you see how the Sabres don't. They didn't do it when they had talent. They still aren't doing it.

 

And I don't think you can just make them do it. You're never going to get a complete game out of some of these guys. Stafford, Foligno and Hodgson are never going to give you that.

[dudacek]

I would like to publicly apologize to Sizzle for Hodgson.

You were right all along.