Current Carrion Hockey League Standings

[Sabrestrike]

I'm not sure even McEichel will make that big of an impact in their first season.  Not elite right away, I mean.

 

There's certainly no guarantee, but both do profile as instant impact guys.  McDavid would almost certainly be centering Kane from Day 1.  Eichel, maybe not top line, but he'd be a Top 6 player and I'd expect him to chip in 15 goals and 25 - 30 assists.  For us, that would be huge. 

[TrueBlueGED]

That's all fine and well - but as I said, wouldn't it be nicer to have that "even better elite prospect"? The Sabres have a very nice amount of potential talent on the way in the next few years. Stome or Marner or whatever other player will be a very fine addition to that prospect list. But at this stage of the game, shouldn't everybody be happier if they are able to guarantee to get a piece of that "awesomeness" ?

I'm fairly confident every single poster here would prefer, at this point, to finish last. But I don't think that's the conversation that's taking place--we're debating what drafting #3 really means for the team.

[pi2000]

If guys like Lindros and Gretzky can get traded, I wouldn't rule out the Sabres trading up from #3 to #2.     Everybody is talking about getting stuck with the #3 pick, but I have a feeling GMTM has something up his sleeve if that scenario presents itself.

 

I know, I know, nobody is gonna trade out of a spot to draft Eichel.... BUT this is a special case since ARI is likely angling for their own homegrown Auston Mathews in 2016 who is putting up better numbers that Eichel did at the same age in the same program.    A package that includes both 2015 firsts, 2016's first and somebody like Girgensons/Reinhart and Zadorov (who i think GMTM is gonna try and move anyway), would probably get it done to move up 1 spot.  

[Claude_Verret]

That's all fine and well - but as I said, wouldn't it be nicer to have that "even better elite prospect"?  The Sabres have a very nice amount of potential talent on the way in the next few years.  Stome or Marner or whatever other player will be a very fine addition to that prospect list.  But at this stage of the game, shouldn't everybody be happier if they are able to guarantee to get a piece of that "awesomeness" ?

 

 

Of course, anyone who isn't on board for DFL at this point is either lying or insane.  But as we should have all realized from the very start, other organization(s) covet the shart just as much as we do and nobody should have ever expected for this to be easy.

[Derrico]

If guys like Lindros and Gretzky can get traded, I wouldn't rule out the Sabres trading up from #3 to #2.     Everybody is talking about getting stuck with the #3 pick, but I have a feeling GMTM has something up his sleeve if that scenario presents itself.

 

I know, I know, nobody is gonna trade out of a spot to draft Eichel.... BUT this is a special case since ARI is likely angling for their own homegrown Auston Mathews in 2016 who is putting up better numbers that Eichel did at the same age in the same program.    A package that includes both 2015 firsts, 2016's first and somebody like Girgensons/Reinhart and Zadorov (who i think GMTM is gonna try and move anyway), would probably get it done to move up 1 spot.  

There is this possibility.  But it would be so much nicer to take care of our own business and get to 2 without giving up Girgs/Reinhart, or anything else for that matter.  The beauty of Eichel is we will have our three centres slotted in good position going forward.

[Crusader1969]

Strome has moved up to #3 on most boards.  If close with Hanifan, I see them taking a center.  What do you base your conclusions on? 

 

Just my gut feeling, guess maybe I`m not sold on Strome he is a talented player who needs work on his skating. I`d prefer a talented player who is an exceptional skater - see Hanifin or Marner.

[nfreeman]

I do disagree nfreeman , because i think what you are describing is exactly what the Sabres are doing now, and i am pro-rebuild, outside of being in the playoff mix this year. 

 

Enjoy your posts on here..i usually learn something from you so thank you.

 

Thanks Plenz.

 

To the bolded: The entirety of the first bold was cast in stone by the time the team failed to show up in Game 7 against Philly.

 

I expect the Sabres to pass 90 points in 2016-2017 season regardless of who they draft this June. I'd even spot you a career ending injury to one of our last 5 first round draft picks.

 

I completely disagree.  That team was an eyelash away from beating the prior year's EC champs.  They needed another defenseman with guts and a good top-6 forward, also with guts, and they would've been good again the next year.  Instead they threw money at Leino and Ehrhoff, let Miller get run over by Lucic 10 games into the next season and it was downhill from there.

 

I hope you're right on 2016-17.  I'm skeptical that this will happen unless they get a transformative player in the draft.

 

The Habs picked Galenychuk at #3 in 2012. They had a good team in 2011 and 2013 but they stunk up the ice in 2012. Fun fact, Grigs was projected #3 in that draft (according to Wikipedia). Preds picked Seth Jones #4 in 2013 and had the 11 pick last year. The Rangers do seem to break the mold, but that team for the most part goes the way Lundvquist does (pick #205 in 2000, BTW). Let's not pretend those former two have been consistently good for a long time.

 

OK, but neither Galchenyuk nor Jones is a key part of those teams.  Galechenyuk is a 2nd-line winger who is having a pretty nice season and Jones is a good, young 2nd-pairing defenseman.  If the Sabres were to add a guy in either of those roles to this year's team, that would be nice, but hardly a franchise-altering move.

 

More to the point, neither team has hit rock bottom and stayed there the way the Sabres have for the last 3 seasons.  And while the Habs haven't been a dynasty, they've hit 100 pts in the last 3 seasons (prorating the strike year), bottomed out for one season the year before that, and had 96 points the year before that.  That's 4 very solid years out of 5. 

 

Nashville had a bad year last year, but was without Pekka Rinne for pretty much the entire year.  They also had a crappy year during the strike season, but that was a strange year.  During the 3 years before that, they were over 100 pts twice and had 99 once -- so 4 out of 6 years were quite solid, with 1 of the 2 outliers largely due to losing their franchise goalie.

 

Unless I read your argument wrong, you were saying it was a bad plan from the start because of the uncertainty of finishing last this season. That's disingenuous because the plan (for the team, not a collection of crazy fans) wasn't about only finishing last this year--it was about amassing a large quantity of young talent, with several truly high end pieces. We're going to have a great collection of talent whether we draft 1, 2, or 3 this year. You're projecting your views onto the plan and judging it to be objectively "bad" when really you should be looking at it through the eyes of those who set it into motion. You can hate it without it being bad.

 

Now, having said that, if I've completely misread the organization and the plan really was solely to get McEichel, then I will agree that's a bad plan due to the risks and uncertainty involved. I just don't think that the organization is "McEichel or bust" the way many fans are.

 

As to the second part of what you said, others have already answered it. All I was saying is just because a plan doesn't achieve the maximum possible outcome does not mean it's a bad plan, and that's true regardless of what the objective is.

 

And now I feel like I've spent far too much time arguing about this when we're still the favorite to finish last.

 

On the Rangers: When free agents like Brad Richards want to come to your city and Rick Nash is willing to waive his NMC to go there, it's easier to build a team without drafting high. It's not impossible without those things, but nobody should pretend Buffalo is on a level playing field when it comes to player recruitment.

 

No.  I have been saying that it's a bad plan because the likelihood of success -- i.e. ending up with a Cup-contending team -- is low, and not worth the suffering. 

 

Now, I think that the likelihood of success goes way up if the Sabres get McDavid -- but there was at best a 20% chance of that.  So that left us with, at best, an 80% chance at Eichel -- whom everyone seems to think is really good, but not at McD's level.  I think the likelihood of the plan succeeding with Eichel is substantially lower than it is with McDavid -- maybe something like the difference between Crosby magically landing on the Sabres' roster as opposed to, say, Getzlaf.

 

Then, when we drop down to the level of "probably a really good NHL player but not generational like McD and not elite like Eichel" -- I just think we're looking at a good player but not one that will be able to transform this team into a contender -- so we're still in the wilderness.

 

(I will stipulate that I don't know a GD thing about how good either of McD or Eichel really is, or what their respective ceilings are, or those of Hanifan or Strome -- and I suspect the same is true of almost everyone else here.)

 

I suppose it ties in to your "great collection of talent" principle.  There is a long way to go, and lots of questions to be answered about guys like Kane, Reinhart, Griggy and Zadorov, and whoever is going to be the goalie, before we can conclude that about this team.  There's a reason the Sabres have scored a historically low number of goals.  There's also the statistical near-certainty that some of that "great talent" is going to wash out.

 

Bottom line:  while I do hate the plan, I don't think that disqualifies me from evaluating it and determining that I think it is a bad plan.  Do I hope it succeeds?  Of course.  But I think the odds are against it, and it didn't need to be this way.

 

 

You're right, no GM gives up a player that a team builds around.  The only way you acquire them is by getting them through the draft. You need to be bad for 2-3 years, not only bad, but the worst in the league to get the players it takes to be the glue of a franchise that will be constantly in the playoffs.

 

No.  1 or 2 elite players pop loose every year, whether it's Chris Pronger's wife deciding she hates Edmonton, or Rick Nash getting sick of losing in Columbus, or Hossa or Kovy deciding the same about Atlanta.  During the Darcy era the Sabres never got involved, probably because Darcy wasn't interested in paying market rate for guys like that -- but it doesn't mean they aren't out there.

 

If the Sabres are lucky, GMTM may have snagged one a few months ago from Winnipeg.

[LGR4GM]

I'm fairly confident every single poster here would prefer, at this point, to finish last. But I don't think that's the conversation that's taking place--we're debating what drafting #3 really means for the team.

yup, again.

If guys like Lindros and Gretzky can get traded, I wouldn't rule out the Sabres trading up from #3 to #2.     Everybody is talking about getting stuck with the #3 pick, but I have a feeling GMTM has something up his sleeve if that scenario presents itself.

 

I know, I know, nobody is gonna trade out of a spot to draft Eichel.... BUT this is a special case since ARI is likely angling for their own homegrown Auston Mathews in 2016 who is putting up better numbers that Eichel did at the same age in the same program.    A package that includes both 2015 firsts, 2016's first and somebody like Girgensons/Reinhart and Zadorov (who i think GMTM is gonna try and move anyway), would probably get it done to move up 1 spot.  

So your trade idea is 3rd overall, 21st overall, 2016 1st, Zadorov, Zemgus/Reinhart for 2nd overall?  Get the f#ck out.

[Doohicksie]

If guys like Lindros and Gretzky can get traded, I wouldn't rule out the Sabres trading up from #3 to #2.     Everybody is talking about getting stuck with the #3 pick, but I have a feeling GMTM has something up his sleeve if that scenario presents itself.

 

I know, I know, nobody is gonna trade out of a spot to draft Eichel.... BUT this is a special case since ARI is likely angling for their own homegrown Auston Mathews in 2016 who is putting up better numbers that Eichel did at the same age in the same program.    A package that includes both 2015 firsts, 2016's first and somebody like Girgensons/Reinhart and Zadorov (who i think GMTM is gonna try and move anyway), would probably get it done to move up 1 spot.  

 

Gretzky was traded late-ish in his career and it was a pretty extraordinary event at the time. 

 

Lindros was traded because he was being a punk:  he made it clear he would never sign with Quebec (now Colorado), and Quebec made the best of a bad situation by trading him for basically all of Philly's prospects and draft picks.  It's notable that the trade brought the Cup to the Quebec/Colorado franchise but not to Philly.

 

And if Phoenix gets their hands on McEichel, they're not going to pass on that to maybe get Matthews next year.  That's just insane.

[LGR4GM]

Just my gut feeling, guess maybe I`m not sold on Strome he is a talented player who needs work on his skating. I`d prefer a talented player who is an exceptional skater - see Hanifin or Marner.

That is the reason I have Marner over Strome.  Marner is the far superior skating and in everything else they are close. 

[woods-racer]

nfreeman,

 

There is one part you are missing, no way does any team not Montreal, Rangers , Red Wings, maybe now LA and Chicago attract those players. When they get a choice, they want to play for the big hockey markets with long standing traditions of winning, and, they want that team to be a winner before they get there. They want to be "the" player that puts that team in position to win cups now.

 

The other 24-ish teams have no chance, until the players are to old to be that good, where they are just cashing in on their names.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Woods-Racer

[Claude_Verret]

nfreeman,

 

There is one part you are missing, no way does any team not Montreal, Rangers , Red Wings, maybe now LA and Chicago attract those players. When they get a choice, they want to play for the big hockey markets with long standing traditions of winning, and, they want that team to be a winner before they get there. They want to be "the" player that puts that team in position to win cups now.

 

The other 24-ish teams have no chance, until the players are to old to be that good, where they are just cashing in on their names.

 

 

And there is a gradient of preference among the remaining 24 teams, and Buffalo is decidedly at the bottom of the barrel.  I was told in no uncertain terms by my former source close to DR that a large part of the decision that led to the suffer/ tank plan is indeed the huge recruitment problem that the Sabres face.  Despite TP's open wallet top guys do not want to play in Buffalo if given a choice.  I suspect that problem might improve some if/when we start icing a competitive team, but I don't think we'll ever be playing on a level field with some of the big boys.

[nfreeman]

nfreeman,

 

There is one part you are missing, no way does any team not Montreal, Rangers , Red Wings, maybe now LA and Chicago attract those players. When they get a choice, they want to play for the big hockey markets with long standing traditions of winning, and, they want that team to be a winner before they get there. They want to be "the" player that puts that team in position to win cups now.

 

The other 24-ish teams have no chance, until the players are to old to be that good, where they are just cashing in on their names.

 

And there is a gradient of preference among the remaining 24 teams, and Buffalo is decidedly at the bottom of the barrel.  I was told in no uncertain terms by my former source close to DR that a large part of the decision that led to the suffer/ tank plan is indeed the huge recruitment problem that the Sabres face.  Despite TP's open wallet top guys do not want to play in Buffalo if given a choice.  I suspect that problem might improve some if/when we start icing a competitive team, but I don't think we'll ever be playing on a level field with some of the big boys.

 

Well, Montreal doesn't attract many star players with options either, but this is a fair point.

 

However, I disagree for a couple of reasons:

 

1.  The "good team" factor is, IMHO, the biggest one.  No one wants to waste years of his prime on a terrible team, especially if the money is more or less the same on a good team.  (NB this is another reason the tank was a bad idea.)

 

2.  While I don't doubt that OSP's (and his predecessors') tightfisted ways hindered DR's ability to attract good players, I've also heard that DR himself was part of the problem -- he just wasn't much of a recruiter.  With DR gone and TP throwing cash around, I fully expect the Sabres to attract plenty of good players if they can get themselves to decent-playoff-team status.  I think it's worth noting here that the Bills are doing just fine in that regard.

[LGR4GM]

And there is a gradient of preference among the remaining 24 teams, and Buffalo is decidedly at the bottom of the barrel.  I was told in no uncertain terms by my former source close to DR that a large part of the decision that led to the suffer/ tank plan is indeed the huge recruitment problem that the Sabres face.  Despite TP's open wallet top guys do not want to play in Buffalo if given a choice.  I suspect that problem might improve some if/when we start icing a competitive team, but I don't think we'll ever be playing on a level field with some of the big boys.

But everything is level. I mean we must change the draft so everything is fair and even.  Just like life, fair and even.  No one ever schemes, manipulates the system or goes full screw you to get what they want in the real world.  All is fair.

[woods-racer]

But everything is level. I mean we must change the draft so everything is fair and even.  Just like life, fair and even.  No one ever schemes, manipulates the system or goes full screw you to get what they want in the real world.  All is fair.

Poetic pro tank sarcasm.

 

:wub:

[Weave]

Strome is also an elite prospect. So is Marner. This is where the awesomeness of McEichel has skewed perceptions. Strome and Marner would be in the conversation for #1 overall in any normal draft year, but this is an abnormal year, so they'll go 3-4 and most seem to be thinking of them as typical #3-4 prospects. I think that's the wrong view. They should be thought of as 1-2 level prospects; if you think Reinhart is elite, then you have to think Strome and Marner are also elite.

 

Have you any links to draftniks that are rating Strome and Marner as elite level?  I've looked at my usual gotos and didn't see that.  I'd be interested in seeing where you are getting evaluations that have them rated as elite.

 

FWIW, I don't consider Reinhart to be an elite prospect.  Now, to me that means I don't see Sam as developing into an elite NHL'er.  I hope I'm wrong here, or maybe my idea of elite is different from others, but I see Sam as more of a expects-to-be-a-typical-top-line-player than a player that is talked about as among the top tier in the league when developed.   Maybe my disconnect is with the phrase "elite prospect".

Edited April 2, 2015 by weave

[LGR4GM]

Have you any links to draftniks that are rating Strome and Marner as elite level?  I've looked at my usual gotos and didn't see that.  I'd be interested in seeing where you are getting evaluations that have them rated as elite.

 

FWIW, I don't consider Reinhart to be an elite prospect.  Now, to me that means I don't see Sam as developing into an elite NHL'er.  I hope I'm wrong here, or maybe my idea of elite is different from others, but I see Sam as more of a expects-to-be-a-typical-top-line-player than a player that is talked about as among the top tier in the league when developed.   Maybe my disconnect is with the phrase "elite prospect".

You define elite and I will tell you honestly if anyone outside of McEichel falls into that category. 

[Weave]

You define elite and I will tell you honestly if anyone outside of McEichel falls into that category. 

 

I was thinking more along the lines of reading what someone that knows what they are doing would have to say.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I was thinking more along the lines of reading what someone that knows what they are doing would have to say.

 

:w00t:

[LGR4GM]

I was thinking more along the lines of reading what someone that knows what they are doing would have to say.

Yea, my reading comp skills are terrible.  There was some stuff posted in the draft thread on the subject but,

 

Strome: "Strome has an outstanding wrist shot, and a great release. He also has very good hands in tight and can be a real sniper. Strome also has the ability to be a playmaker with great vision and passing skills. He has good size and uses it to protect the puck in the cycle game. He is great at working down low, extending plays and waiting for the opening to take the puck to the front of the net, or for a linemate to get open and make the tape to tape pass. He has high-end hockey IQ, and seems to make the right play with the puck on his stick, or can find openings in the defense to set himself up for a one-timer.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2015/04/02/2015-nhl-draft-profile-3-dylan-strome/

 

Marner: "A dynamic offensive forward that backchecks hard and establishes his presence through playing smart, puck-possession hockey. A very quick skater gifted with great hands and hockey sense. Battles hard in all three zones and shows a willingness to do whatever it takes to get the puck to the back of the net; an unselfish player. Embodies the definition of a dynamic number-generating machine who makes the players around him better." http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=223194

Edited April 2, 2015 by LGR4GM

[Weave]

Yea, my reading comp skills are terrible.  There was some stuff posted in the draft thread on the subject but,

 

Strome: "Strome has an outstanding wrist shot, and a great release. He also has very good hands in tight and can be a real sniper. Strome also has the ability to be a playmaker with great vision and passing skills. He has good size and uses it to protect the puck in the cycle game. He is great at working down low, extending plays and waiting for the opening to take the puck to the front of the net, or for a linemate to get open and make the tape to tape pass. He has high-end hockey IQ, and seems to make the right play with the puck on his stick, or can find openings in the defense to set himself up for a one-timer.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2015/04/02/2015-nhl-draft-profile-3-dylan-strome/

 

Marner: "A dynamic offensive forward that backchecks hard and establishes his presence through playing smart, puck-possession hockey. A very quick skater gifted with great hands and hockey sense. Battles hard in all three zones and shows a willingness to do whatever it takes to get the puck to the back of the net; an unselfish player. Embodies the definition of a dynamic number-generating machine who makes the players around him better." http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=223194

 

 

Saw those.  Neither of those links describe him specifically as elite or indicate what he projects to be in the NHL.

[Drunkard]

If we screw up the tank and end up drafting 3rd or 4th, I'd definitely lean towards Marner at this point. I know he probably wouldn't be ready to play right away and you aren't supposed to draft for your immediate needs but he would really help the right side of our forward ranks and we'd still be solid at center (Reinhart, Girgensens, Grigorenko, Larsson).

[Claude_Verret]

http://thehockeywriters.com/magical-mitch-marner-mcdavid-malkin/

 

A lot of elite talk in there.

[LGR4GM]

Saw those.  Neither of those links describe him specifically as elite or indicate what he projects to be in the NHL.

Strome projects to be a #1/#2 C. Marner a #1/#2 RW.

[Weave]

Strome projects to be a #1/#2 C. Marner a #1/#2 RW.

 

 

Yeah, yeah.  I really am not trying to offend here, but I'm not interested in your word for it.  Links, please?