Trade speculation 2014-15

[Iron Crotch]

You mean like last year's early trade of Vanek to the Islanders? Maybe last year was more about the team in general as opposed to setting/waiting for the market to set.

 

I think was an anomaly.  The Isles grossly overpaid.  Hard for any GM to turn down Moulson + a 1st for a guy who made it clear he wanted out.

[shrader]

I think was an anomaly.  The Isles grossly overpaid.  Hard for any GM to turn down Moulson + a 1st for a guy who made it clear he wanted out.

And at a moment where it was clear as day that the team was a seller, even that early in the season. I'd imagine we would have seen something similar this year if we actually had any trading chips with that kind of value. That's the main reason right now why we haven't seen anything. This team has nothing of value to move in a similar deal. Myers is really the only one out there, but with the time left on his contract, that is a franchise changing trade.

[DHawerchuk10]

Miller was pretty polarizing back when the team was actually decent/good.

When hype doesn't match performance the result is a very polarizing player.  As I have said before, if Myers was 6'1, I highly doubt even the true believers would be singing about "his potential" so much.  And therein lies the frustration, in that he doesn't play like a 6'8 defenseman, yet people use this as an argument "Alamo" when all other excuses fail (i.e. "can't teach size", "6'8 guys don't grow on trees").  He's not an imposing force whatsoever, and in fact, he's almost the complete opposite, and gets easily taken off the puck. If he can't impose his will on other players (and there are NO indications he ever will), size is meaningless.  When you take size out of the equation, what do you have left with Myers? 

 

In my mind, a pretty mediocre NHL defenseman.

[Derrico]

We must be watching a different player this year.  I thought Myers has played well this year, especially considering he's on a terrible team and playing the toughest minutes.

[inkman]

In my mind, a pretty mediocre NHL defenseman.

GMs and analysts don't agree with you. Everyone I hear talk rave about him. I think he's a victim of his own success. Too much too early. On a bad night he's an above average NHL defenseman, on a good night he an be spectacular. Do his bad nights outweigh his good, probably. He's not Marc Andre Gragnani or Dennis Tsygurov.

[Patty16]

When hype doesn't match performance the result is a very polarizing player.  As I have said before, if Myers was 6'1, I highly doubt even the true believers would be singing about "his potential" so much.  And therein lies the frustration, in that he doesn't play like a 6'8 defenseman, yet people use this as an argument "Alamo" when all other excuses fail (i.e. "can't teach size", "6'8 guys don't grow on trees").  He's not an imposing force whatsoever, and in fact, he's almost the complete opposite, and gets easily taken off the puck. If he can't impose his will on other players (and there are NO indications he ever will), size is meaningless.  When you take size out of the equation, what do you have left with Myers? 

 

In my mind, a pretty mediocre NHL defenseman.

 

 

GMs and analysts don't agree with you. Everyone I hear talk rave about him. I think he's a victim of his own success. Too much too early. On a bad night he's an above average NHL defenseman, on a good night he an be spectacular. Do his bad nights outweigh his good, probably. He's not Marc Andre Gragnani or Dennis Tsygurov.

Right. 

and you just can't take size out of the equation. People were saying the same things about Chara, and no I'm not saying he will be him either.  Buy when you are that big and skate that well people take notice.  Myers still has potential.   He's a pretty good NHL Dman playing a lot of minutes.  Do you think if he was so horrible, why would you expect to get a guy like Fowler in return??   

[Iron Crotch]

Been talked about on this board ad nauseum, but I don't think the Chara analogy is at all warranted.  Chara was a little know player from rural Slovakia with very little high-end training as a youngster.  He was raw as hell and was drafted as a long-shot project in the third round.  He only played one year of junior hockey, which was AFTER he was drafted.  Guy really had to learn how to play the North American game, which he did in the years after being drafted.  Myers is quite the opposite.  He wasn't an unknown guy from a non-hockey area.  He's had the proper training as a junior player in Canada and was a first round pick.  Very different.

 

Now Myers has played almost 6 full seasons and almost 400 NHL games, yet people still talk about "when he develops."  He has developed.  He is a veteran.  And, even if you buy the "he is Chara because they are both tall" cover story, Chara played 231 games with the Isles.  In games played Myers right now = Chara during his second season in Ottawa, which is when Zedeno was already starting to dominate the league.

 

[qwksndmonster]

When hype doesn't match performance the result is a very polarizing player.  As I have said before, if Myers was 6'1, I highly doubt even the true believers would be singing about "his potential" so much.  And therein lies the frustration, in that he doesn't play like a 6'8 defenseman, yet people use this as an argument "Alamo" when all other excuses fail (i.e. "can't teach size", "6'8 guys don't grow on trees").  He's not an imposing force whatsoever, and in fact, he's almost the complete opposite, and gets easily taken off the puck. If he can't impose his will on other players (and there are NO indications he ever will), size is meaningless.  When you take size out of the equation, what do you have left with Myers? 

 

In my mind, a pretty mediocre NHL defenseman.

 

Size can't be taught. It's a tool in Myers's box that he uses inconsistently.  When people refer to his height, they are referring to his untapped potential.  You are using hyperbole in the opposite manner.  Myers is a pretty imposing force when it comes to separating a forward from the puck.  Obviously, we all want him to throw his body around like Nikita, but there are effective defensemen that aren't physical.  Ehrhoff and Sekera come to mind, both were criminally underrated on this board.  If Myers was 6'1" maybe you wouldn't think it was so pathetic when a forward muscled him off the puck.

Been talked about on this board ad nauseum, but I don't think the Chara analogy is at all warranted.  Chara was a little know player from rural Slovakia with very little high-end training as a youngster.  He was raw as hell and was drafted as a long-shot project in the third round.  He only played one year of junior hockey, which was AFTER he was drafted.  Guy really had to learn how to play the North American game, which he did in the years after being drafted.  Myers is quite the opposite.  He wasn't an unknown guy from a non-hockey area.  He's had the proper training as a junior player in Canada and was a first round pick.  Very different.

 

Now Myers has played almost 6 full seasons and almost 400 NHL games, yet people still talk about "when he develops."  He has developed.  He is a veteran.  And, even if you buy the "he is Chara because they are both tall" cover story, Chara played 231 games with the Isles.  In games played Myers right now = Chara during his second season in Ottawa, which is when Zedeno was already starting to dominate the league.

Myers is still developing.  I don't know how you could possibly assert that he is done growing as a player.

[beerme1]

Ennis produces points at Kane's rate without his drama so... No.  I would not trade Ennis plus for questionable Kane.

I think you're overlooking how tough of a game he plays. He would be great protection for whoever the next underage center is going to be.

[Patty16]

Been talked about on this board ad nauseum, but I don't think the Chara analogy is at all warranted.  Chara was a little know player from rural Slovakia with very little high-end training as a youngster.  He was raw as hell and was drafted as a long-shot project in the third round.  He only played one year of junior hockey, which was AFTER he was drafted.  Guy really had to learn how to play the North American game, which he did in the years after being drafted.  Myers is quite the opposite.  He wasn't an unknown guy from a non-hockey area.  He's had the proper training as a junior player in Canada and was a first round pick.  Very different.

 

Now Myers has played almost 6 full seasons and almost 400 NHL games, yet people still talk about "when he develops."  He has developed.  He is a veteran.  And, even if you buy the "he is Chara because they are both tall" cover story, Chara played 231 games with the Isles.  In games played Myers right now = Chara during his second season in Ottawa, which is when Zedeno was already starting to dominate the league.

 

 

Cover story?  the tall comparison is for many reasons, the biggest being that it takes a while for extra tall guys to grow into their bodies. You know, just like most rookies aren't yet men and need to mature physically in the CHL.  So its not even close to a cover story,   And Chara grew up training as a pro athlete in a communist country where his dad was an Olympic athlete.  He wasn't some shmuck living on a farm somewhere.  He came  to learn the NA game just like most Euros do.   

 

YOu're right, he didnt start become really good until about the same point Myers is right now. But he also played on much better teams.  Myers is a few seconds out of top 10 minutes in the league per night.  He's not at Chara's level but people are saying over sized players take more time to develop than average sized ones.  It's true accourding to scouts and GMs despite what you think 

[Hoss]

No it isn't. It is looking at them possibly believing they would lose 1 of the 3 under 24 defenders they have on the roster due to possible raises. They then say we can get a replacement who is locked up long term already, below what we think we would need to pay these guys. It is looking ahead and deciding where and when you want to make a move. You are using hyperbole to distort the thought.

If the thought didn't suck then I wouldn't use hyperbole to distort it. :p

 

More realistic: it'd be like us trading Risto or Zadorov instead of Myers because we're afraid of the raises they'll get eventually (if we were cash strapped).

I think you're overlooking how tough of a game he plays. He would be great protection for whoever the next underage center is going to be.

It's easy for people to overlook Kane's physical game because guys like him with the finesse skill don't generally have it. But he does.

[nfreeman]

Been talked about on this board ad nauseum, but I don't think the Chara analogy is at all warranted.  Chara was a little know player from rural Slovakia with very little high-end training as a youngster.  He was raw as hell and was drafted as a long-shot project in the third round.  He only played one year of junior hockey, which was AFTER he was drafted.  Guy really had to learn how to play the North American game, which he did in the years after being drafted.  Myers is quite the opposite.  He wasn't an unknown guy from a non-hockey area.  He's had the proper training as a junior player in Canada and was a first round pick.  Very different.

 

Now Myers has played almost 6 full seasons and almost 400 NHL games, yet people still talk about "when he develops."  He has developed.  He is a veteran.  And, even if you buy the "he is Chara because they are both tall" cover story, Chara played 231 games with the Isles.  In games played Myers right now = Chara during his second season in Ottawa, which is when Zedeno was already starting to dominate the league.

 

 

Cover story?  the tall comparison is for many reasons, the biggest being that it takes a while for extra tall guys to grow into their bodies. You know, just like most rookies aren't yet men and need to mature physically in the CHL.  So its not even close to a cover story,   And Chara grew up training as a pro athlete in a communist country where his dad was an Olympic athlete.  He wasn't some shmuck living on a farm somewhere.  He came  to learn the NA game just like most Euros do.   

 

YOu're right, he didnt start become really good until about the same point Myers is right now. But he also played on much better teams.  Myers is a few seconds out of top 10 minutes in the league per night.  He's not at Chara's level but people are saying over sized players take more time to develop than average sized ones.  It's true accourding to scouts and GMs despite what you think 

 

Beat me to it.  In Chara's 2nd year with Ottawa, they had 102 points and were 1st in the NHL in offense and 8th in defense.  They also had Wade Redden, who was really good at that time -- he was the #1 defenseman on that team and an all-star that year (and in 2006, in one of the biggest FA blunders of all time, Ottawa let Chara go and re-signed Redden instead).

[LGR4GM]

 

If the thought didn't suck then I wouldn't use hyperbole to distort it. :P

 

More realistic: it'd be like us trading Risto or Zadorov instead of Myers because we're afraid of the raises they'll get eventually (if we were cash strapped).

 

It's easy for people to overlook Kane's physical game because guys like him with the finesse skill don't generally have it. But he does.

 

You didn't understand what I was saying so you lashed out, got it.

I think you're overlooking how tough of a game he plays. He would be great protection for whoever the next underage center is going to be.

Kane plays physical does not equate to Kane will protect his teammates.  I would take Evander on the Sabres but I am not giving up 2 prospects a pick and Ennis to accomplish it. 

[Iron Crotch]

Beat me to it.  In Chara's 2nd year with Ottawa, they had 102 points and were 1st in the NHL in offense and 8th in defense.  They also had Wade Redden, who was really good at that time -- he was the #1 defenseman on that team and an all-star that year (and in 2006, in one of the biggest FA blunders of all time, Ottawa let Chara go and re-signed Redden instead).

 

Chara was Redden's partner IIRC.  So your argument is Chara was just a passenger on the Sens and his great teammates made his stats look good?  Because I remember him dominating that year playing in all situations.  I would argue that Chara played a significant role in the Sens being really good.  I would similarly argue that Myers, as the team's ice time leader, isn't just a passenger on this Sabres team.  IMHO, he plays at least some role in the Sabres being bad.

[Patty16]

Chara was Redden's partner IIRC.  So your argument is Chara was just a passenger on the Sens and his great teammates made his stats look good?  Because I remember him dominating that year playing in all situations.  I would argue that Chara played a significant role in the Sens being really good.  I would similarly argue that Myers, as the team's ice time leader, isn't just a passenger on this Sabres team.  IMHO, he plays at least some role in the Sabres being bad.

 

Do you take everything to the extreme?  No one said he's a passenger or implied the same.  But playing on a good or bad team makes a difference. Especially a developing Dman prospect.  

 

You're actually claiming to remember how good Chara was in 2002 in all situations?  nearly 13 years ago ? cmon man.      

 

Every player has a role or part in whether a team is good or bad.  Your statement makes no sense at all. 

 

If myers is half as bad as you purport why are two really good franchises reportedly willing to pony up big assets for him?  Because he's the catalyst in making this Sabres team bad? Or he's a decent player with lots of potential upside and can reall help a Cup contender?  

[TrueBlueGED]

Do you take everything to the extreme?  No one said he's a passenger or implied the same.  But playing on a good or bad team makes a difference. Especially a developing Dman prospect.  

 

You're actually claiming to remember how good Chara was in 2002 in all situations?  nearly 13 years ago ? cmon man.      

 

Every player has a role or part in whether a team is good or bad.  Your statement makes no sense at all. 

 

If myers is half as bad as you purport why are two really good franchises reportedly willing to pony up big assets for him?  Because he's the catalyst in making this Sabres team bad? Or he's a decent player with lots of potential upside and can reall help a Cup contender?  

 

But they have yet to pony up any assets for him, and at least in Detroit's case, has been heavily reported as refusing to deal prime assets for him...which means he's not as good as many seem to think he is. And I don't think Potato has ever said he's bad, he just thinks Myers is a 2nd pairing Dman on a good team--that's in no way, shape, or form bad.

[LGR4GM]

Can we stop paying or betting on upside and just get some ppl who are consistently good?  

[Patty16]

But they have yet to pony up any assets for him, and at least in Detroit's case, has been heavily reported as refusing to deal prime assets for him...which means he's not as good as many seem to think he is. And I don't think Potato has ever said he's bad, he just thinks Myers is a 2nd pairing Dman on a good team--that's in no way, shape, or form bad.

 

To that extent they have yet to refuse to pony up big assets.  If and when he does get traded we will get a better idea of what other GMs think of his worth.  His worth is prob a little more inflated bc he is a R handed shot, and those are hard to find and pretty valuable for PP purposes. (DET has all Lefties -- ANA has a few) 

[LGR4GM]

My only question when you trade Myers is who is going to fill out the Sabres top 4 defense spots?  I am not saying we can't trade him just curious how it shakes out.

[Derrico]

Can we stop paying or betting on upside and just get some ppl who are consistently good?  

Your going to have to wait for the offseason for that.  I think this summer that's exactly what Tim will be going after.  For the next month it's going to be nothing but futures we're looking at. 

[LGR4GM]

Your going to have to wait for the offseason for that.  I think this summer that's exactly what Tim will be going after.  For the next month it's going to be nothing but futures we're looking at. 

But will there be a guy available that isn't going to get massively overpaid?

[Doohicksie]

My only question when you trade Myers is who is going to fill out the Sabres top 4 defense spots?  I am not saying we can't trade him just curious how it shakes out.

 

Depends on the return... if no decent D comes back, there's Psysk.

[IKnowPhysics]

I can't quite say that I'm as excited about the post-draft offseason as much as the deadline and draft, but it's not far off.  I want to execute as perfect a draft as possible and then get right into acquiring the rest of next year's team.

 

Too soon for a 2015 Free Agency thread?

[DHawerchuk10]

GMs and analysts don't agree with you. Everyone I hear talk rave about him. I think he's a victim of his own success. Too much too early. On a bad night he's an above average NHL defenseman, on a good night he an be spectacular. Do his bad nights outweigh his good, probably. He's not Marc Andre Gragnani or Dennis Tsygurov.

Perhaps he was a victim of his own early success.  I would certainly agree with that, however, the majority of folks only raved about him because of what they thought he could progress into...he has instead, regressed.  I disagree with everything else you said though. 

 

"GMs and analysts don't agree with you".  Says who?  The rumor mill?  I am not sure this matters anyway.  GMs and analysts miss all the time.  They tend to do what everybody else does and fall in love with size.  Myers is like that bad boy in high school that every girl thinks she can change.  I guess my opinion doesn't matter a whoot either, outside of complaining making me feel better.

[inkman]

Perhaps he was a victim of his own early success. I would certainly agree with that, however, the majority of folks only raved about him because of what they thought he could progress into...he has instead, regressed. I disagree with everything else you said though.

 

"GMs and analysts don't agree with you". Says who? The rumor mill? I am not sure this matters anyway. GMs and analysts miss all the time. They tend to do what everybody else does and fall in love with size. Myers is like that bad boy in high school that every girl thinks she can change. I guess my opinion doesn't matter a whoot either, outside of complaining making me feel better.

GMs and analysts are stupid, for certain. I may be over valuing him a bit but I feel you are selling him short as well. I hope he does finally Put it together in Buffalo.