Official: NHL expanding to Vegas for '17-18

[That Aud Smell]

I'm not about to actually do what I'm suggesting, but if we looked the 3rd and 4th lines of the bottom 5 teams in the league from 3 decades ago, what would we find?

 

I thought the same thing.

[LGR4GM]

I think the talent right now is higher than it has ever been but the league allows for so much interference and grabbing that talented players are being stifled and forced to play a boring game. 

[That Aud Smell]

Although, looking back at some of those mid-80s rosters, it is confusing to see how many points the plugs put up. Hard to get an apples:apples comparison.

[ubkev]

Although, looking back at some of those mid-80s rosters, it is confusing to see how many points the plugs put up. Hard to get an apples:apples comparison.

That's what I was thinking. There's no way those guys could skate with the players today, let alone score. Right?

[That Aud Smell]

I think the talent right now is higher than it has ever been but the league allows for so much interference and grabbing that talented players are being stifled and forced to play a boring game. 

 

The NHL is unique in how it treats its stars and elite talents -- that is, it does precious little to promote them or showcase them. On the contrary, the NHL continues to facilitate a game that puts those lights under a proverbial bushel.

 

And the interference and grabbing is a big part of it. But the coaching (schemes) plays a part, too. 

[Eleven]

I'm not about to actually do what I'm suggesting, but if we looked the 3rd and 4th lines of the bottom 5 teams in the league from 3 decades ago, what would we find?

 

 

Probably the same thing.

 

Doesn't matter if there was a lack of quality then; there is a lack of quality now, too, and the league shouldn't expand.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Eleven

[Huckleberry]

I think the league would have moved the canes to QC already if it wasn't for that arena lease agreement.

Apparently breaking it would cost 3 x times more than moving the team.   

[Taro T]

Look at the third and fourth lines of bottom-10 teams and you will see plenty of players who don't belong in the NHL.

And look at the roster of the bottom line of the B's or Rags in the '50's; it's almost a given that the Habs or Wings farm club top lines were better. There were less than 150 guys in the league & you still had some (relatively) bad players in the mix.

 

The issue has never been (except late '70's when there were 18 NHL teams + the WHA competing for the Canadian & Scandinavian players) a lack of talent. It's ALWAYS been how is that talent distributed. It also has been (most pronouncedly in the pre-lockout '00's) how the non-talented guys could level the playing field.

[That Aud Smell]

It's ALWAYS been how is that talent distributed. It also has been (most pronouncedly in the pre-lockout '00's) how the non-talented guys could level the playing field.

 

One of the things I hold in my head is how frickin' awful and out of place certain players look in highlights from the 70s and even 80s. Like, how guys like #11 and Coffey could just dance around the plugs like they were so many pylons.

 

An aged Darien (Darrien? Derrian? Darian?) Hatcher notwithstanding in the post lockout seasons, that discrepancy seems much less marked, far less common in the modern game.

 

Nowadays, guys in your bottom 6 or your last pairing may get victimized by an elite player or top line, but they generally don't look foolish in that process.

[LGR4GM]

One of the things I hold in my head is how frickin' awful and out of place certain players look in highlights from the 70s and even 80s. Like, how guys like #11 and Coffey could just dance around the plugs like they were so many pylons.

 

An aged Darien (Darrien? Derrian? Darian?) Hatcher notwithstanding in the post lockout seasons, that discrepancy seems much less marked, far less common in the modern game.

 

Nowadays, guys in your bottom 6 or your last pairing may get victimized by an elite player or top line, but they generally don't look foolish in that process.

It's like when you watch Gretzky skate around defenders and the defender can't skate backwards or turn around, those things happen much less today because the talent floor has been raised.  

[pi2000]

I'm not about to actually do what I'm suggesting, but if we looked the 3rd and 4th lines of the bottom 5 teams in the league from 3 decades ago, what would we find?

 

Jody Gage in the AHL. 

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=1804

 

He scored 60g one season for Roch, but couldn't crack the Sabres lineup.    Anybody who sniffs 30-40g in the AHL automatically moves up these days.

Edited June 8, 2016 by pi2000

[That Aud Smell]

Jody Gage in the AHL. 

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=1804

 

He scored 60g one season for Roch, but couldn't crack the Sabres lineup.    Anybody who sniffs 30-40g in the AHL automatically moves up these days.

 

Gage was a classic 'tweener.

 

I would not credit the idea that Gage, armed with a time machine, could be potting 15 goals on Buffalo's third line today.

 

For reference and context, a guy named Alex Giroux scored 60 for Hershey in 2008-2009. He's banged around for dang near 20 years, but has almost never played in the NHL. Call him Gage 2.0.

 

There are other examples like that, but Giroux is maybe the neatest match. HOF AHLers who just can't cut it in the NHL have been around a long time.

[BagBoy]

That's how the Pens operated for a decade and a half.

 

 

They've operated with an odd number of teams and unbalanced divisions before.

 

But there's lots of talk about Carolina moving lately.  One possibility is to put that team in Seattle.

 

Another is to put it in Quebec and put Detroit back in the Norris Division where it freaking belongs.

 

Amen, brother!!!

[pi2000]

It's like when you watch Gretzky skate around defenders and the defender can't skate backwards or turn around, those things happen much less today because the talent floor has been raised.  

 

You can't compare depth of talent on pre and post cap era teams.    Pre-cap (2004 prior), the talent was concentrated on a few teams, eg the 93-94 NYR had 8 20+ goal scorers.  Their 91-92 team had 5 30+ goal scorers.    You'l never see that again.

 

The salary cap era spread out the talent, then you add in expansion and it gets watered down even more.    There's no denying that if the league contracted, the depth of talent of EVERY team would increase due to salary cap constraints (ceiling AND floor).   Without a cap, that talent would concentrate itself in larger markets.    Either way, the games would be more fun to watch IMO.

[That Aud Smell]

The role of the cap is one I hadn't really considered.

 

And I'm not sure I can devote the mental energy needed to give it a hard think.

the 93-94 NYR had 8 20+ goal scorers.  Their 91-92 team had 5 30+ goal scorers. 

 

Dizzamn.

[pi2000]

Gage was a classic 'tweener.

 

I would not credit the idea that Gage, armed with a time machine, could be potting 15 goals on Buffalo's third line today.

 

For reference and context, a guy named Alex Giroux scored 60 for Hershey in 2008-2009. He's banged around for dang near 20 years, but has almost never played in the NHL. Call him Gage 2.0.

 

There are other examples like that, but Giroux is maybe the neatest match. HOF AHLers who just can't cut it in the NHL have been around a long time.

 

If the league shrunk down to 21-24 teams, guys like Kevin Porter, Brian Flynn, Matt D'Agostini, Deslaurier, etc... would never have sniffed an NHL lineup.... but fortunately, thanks to the watered down depth, we got to watch them for an entire season in 13-14... yay NHL!

[That Aud Smell]

If the league shrunk down to 21-24 teams, guys like Kevin Porter, Brian Flynn, Matt D'Agostini, Deslaurier, etc... would never have sniffed an NHL lineup.

 

And if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his a.ss 'a hoppin.

[Hoss]

I think the league would have moved the canes to QC already if it wasn't for that arena lease agreement.

Apparently breaking it would cost 3 x times more than moving the team.   

After this coming season the arena lease can be bought out for $20 million which is chump change for Quebec City compared to the $500 million expansion fee they were prepared to pay.

[mphs mike]

Although, looking back at some of those mid-80s rosters, it is confusing to see how many points the plugs put up. Hard to get an apples:apples comparison.

start by looking at the size of the goalie equipment. if ken dryden had todays pads he might have a gaa below 0.25!

[Hoss]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-teams-receiving-information-potential-expansion-draft/

 

Expansion draft details, according to Sportsnet sources, were sent to teams...

• Teams can protect seven forwards, three defenseman and one goalie
• Players are required to be protected if their contract extends through the 2017-18 season
• Teams CAN ask players with NMC to waive it for the expansion draft
• Teams MUST expose two forwards and one defenseman who played 40 games the previous season or 70 over the last two and is under contract through 2017-18

[pi2000]

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-teams-receiving-information-potential-expansion-draft/

 

Expansion draft details, according to Sportsnet sources, were sent to teams...

• Teams can protect seven forwards, three defenseman and one goalie
• Players are required to be protected if their contract extends through the 2017-18 season
• Teams CAN ask players with NMC to waive it for the expansion draft
• Teams MUST expose two forwards and one defenseman who played 40 games the previous season or 70 over the last two and is under contract through 2017-18

 

 

additionally... 

 

"Players with two years of professional experience or less will be exempt from the process. Determining who that covers is based on the definition included in the collective bargaining agreement – meaning that 10 games played in the NHL at age 18 or 19 counts as a season, as does any American Hockey League or NHL season for players older than that."

 

So assuming the expansion draft would be next year, guys like Eichel, Reinhart, Fasching and Bailey would be exempt no matter where they play this coming season.  Not sure about guy like Ullmark, he only has 1 professional season in north america under his belt.   

Edited June 10, 2016 by pi2000

[dudacek]

So, it seems like we will be in pretty good shape.

Our list as of this moment based on last year's team minus UFAs:

 

Seven forwards: O'Reilly, Kane, Ennis, Girgensons, Foligno, Larsson, ????

Three defenceman: Ristolainen, Bogosian, McCabe

One goalie: Lehner

Exempt: Eichel, Reinhart, Fasching, Bailey, Ullmark, Nelson, Rodrigues

Forced available: Gorges, Moulson, ????

Likely available: Pysyk, Deslauriers, Gionta, Carrier, Franson, Cal O'Reilly

 

Observations:

1) Pysyk is our best player at risk, unless you are part of the crowd that wants to expose Bogo.

2) adding a good defenceman, or two, this summer could easily cost us a pretty good defenceman next summer

3) nobody will be paying high prices for a second-pair defenceman this summer, it's a good market for buyers.

4) We have space to take on a veteran forward this summer without any expansion risk

5) Unless we re-sign Legwand, or someone like him, to a two-year deal, we are forced to make D-Lo available. No one else meets the 40/70 game mark plus contract requirement.

6) Combine 4 and 5 and all of a sudden acquiring Rick Nash or someone like him makes a lot of sense

7) best case scenario, we offer Vegas a sweetener to take Moulson, protects our D, helps our cap and theirs

8) Murray, either through accident or design has our team in a good spot. If a second expansion team comes in the following year, it might be a different story, when Jack and Sam's free passes are over.

Edited June 11, 2016 by dudacek

[Hoss]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-remembering-greatness/

 

Another couple expansion rules:

- the team is required to take three goalies

- of the 30 players selected at least 20 must be under contract for 2017-18

- players in the draft cannot be bought out until after 2017-18

- teams are required to expose a goalie under contract for 2017-18

- players in the draft cannot return to their old teams until January 1, 2018

- the new franchise will be guaranteed a spot in the lottery for four years

 

I like all these rules. Not putting too much stress on teams but allowing the new team to become competitive and build quickly. Buffalo has themselves in great position.

[Eleven]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-remembering-greatness/

 

Another couple expansion rules:

- the team is required to take three goalies

- of the 30 players selected at least 20 must be under contract for 2017-18

- players in the draft cannot be bought out until after 2017-18

- teams are required to expose a goalie under contract for 2017-18

- players in the draft cannot return to their old teams until January 1, 2018

- the new franchise will be guaranteed a spot in the lottery for four years

 

I like all these rules. Not putting too much stress on teams but allowing the new team to become competitive and build quickly. Buffalo has themselves in great position.

 

It's like taking the LSAT again.

[Hoss]

I'm doing a quick look through the league for a "mock" fantasy draft and there are quite a few teams that are going to have to maneuver heavily this offseason just to fulfill the rules. There are also a few teams in trouble of losing some very good players.

Nashville has Weber, Josi, Ekholm and Ellis on D. They're going to lose either Ekholm or Ellis. They could easily trade one this offseason but regardless they won't have one or both of Ellis/Ekholm next offseason.

It's been noted that Nasvhille has Suter, Dumba, Spurgeon, Scandella and Brodin.

Winnipeg has NMCs on Myers, Enstrom and Byfuglien so keeping Trouba is essentially pointless unless they can get one of them to waive their NMC. For this, I'm going to assume they convince Enstrom (lame, I know).

 

Here's a rough roster I came up with...

 

Clarke MacArthur – Dustin Brown – Marian Hossa

Matt Belesky – Brian Boyle – Patrik Berglund

Jussi Jokinen – William Karlsson – Joffrey Lupul

Matt Martin – Eric Fehr – Jesper Fast

 

Ryan Ellis – Jared Spurgeon

Tobias Enstrom – Dennis Wideman

Simon Depres – Mark Pysyk

 

James Reimer - Michal Neuvirth

Edited June 11, 2016 by Hoss