Hoss Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 I am sick of having this argument so bull$#!t. Enlighten us all.
Derrico Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 Yes please enlighten us. I know I haven't had this argument/discussion with you. Seriously who is going to score us future goals? @Potato - You don't 'need' one elite franchise player but let's not pretend like having one would somehow put us at a disadvantage? Many of the teams listed didn't draft the D or other core pieces to put around them. We have a lot of that in place already. We were in position for a shot at one and it's not ok that we end up picking 10th instead of 1st/2nd. We have drafted great depth type players and I like a lot of our prospect pool but again, who the hell is going to score goals? We have zero elite goal scoring prospects in our system.
Claude_Verret Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 (edited) Someone else can go back and look if they want, but I'm fairly certain during our 2006-07 season we had a stretch or two where we lost 5 of 7 or something similar, yet we still won the President's trophy. In other words, in a long CHL season this still only counts as just a blip on the radar. It really isn't time to freak out yet guys. Edited December 3, 2014 by Claude_Verret
3putt Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 If you need a "franchise changing" player to win the Cup then Washington (Ovi), Pittsburgh (Crosby AND Malkin), Tampa (Stamkos), etc. should take turns winning the Cup, right? Yet "franchise changing" Crosby only has one Cup and "franchise changing" Ovi and Stamkos (plus a lot of others who might fall into that category) have zero. Hmmmm... The truth is there are a lot of paths to a Cup winning team and having a #1 overall pick on the roster need not be one of them (e.g. the Kings). But, having a really good GM is a must. Hopefully Murray falls into the "really good" GM category. ...and Kane Toews Kopitar Quick.Zetterburg Datsyuk, Stamkos and or Tavares could be this year. I think that covers it for the most recent history. If you are tearing it down to rebuild why would you not aspire to get the best asset available? It astounds me that people want to be good and not great. Or worse be competitive and mediorce.
nobody Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 Decent little 'article' by Dave Davis on the pro 30th place finish. http://kuklaskorner.com/tso/comments/sabres-could-be-peaking-too-soon
3putt Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 If you need a "franchise changing" player to win the Cup then Washington (Ovi), Pittsburgh (Crosby AND Malkin), Tampa (Stamkos), etc. should take turns winning the Cup, right? Yet "franchise changing" Crosby only has one Cup and "franchise changing" Ovi and Stamkos (plus a lot of others who might fall into that category) have zero. Hmmmm... The truth is there are a lot of paths to a Cup winning team and having a #1 overall pick on the roster need not be one of them (e.g. the Kings). But, having a really good GM is a must. Hopefully Murray falls into the "really good" GM category. The Kings used there top picks in trades for other players so it is a draw on that one IMO.
LastPommerFan Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 can we rephrase? when you mean: "top 15 NHL goal scorers", don't say "first line talent". First line talent is the top 90 forwards. We've got plenty of guys with that potential. Especially Reinhart and Grigorenko.
3putt Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 Kevin Devine was part of my point there. Murray and Devine are two distinct "eras". Murray's big hit is Reinhart. I think he will be a good player but not in the same tier as McDavid or Eichel. The Jury is still out on Grigs, Armia, Possler Baptiste, Carrier, Fasching, Bailey, Hurley etc.
Iron Crotch Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 ...and Kane Toews Kopitar Quick.Zetterburg Datsyuk, Stamkos and or Tavares could be this year. I think that covers it for the most recent history. If you are tearing it down to rebuild why would you not aspire to get the best asset available? It astounds me that people want to be good and not great. Or worse be competitive and mediorce. It astounds me that people think there is one single formula to build a winning franchise. You guys are absolutely obsessed with losing on purpose. There is no formula. There just isn't. We can win the Cup without McDavid and without Eichel. There are many ways to get there and it need not involve one of the two guys that you guys are obsessed with. Enjoy your team winning for a change. Christ. <end of rant> http://www.hockeysfu.../team-rankings/
Samson's Flow Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 I too think that this is recent winning streak is an abbheration and the team will resume its losing path soon. The team is still not scoring any goals and the goaltending will stabilize back to career average levels. We have been winning a lot of 2-1 and 1-0 type games. The only part I think is legitimate improvement is the Risto-Zadorov pairing has improved the defense significantly. I am still counting on the lack of scoring from the forwards to drag us down to the basement again.
Claude_Verret Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 Decent little 'article' by Dave Davis on the pro 30th place finish. http://kuklaskorner....eaking-too-soon I could have written that article. Very well said, the only thing I slightly disagree with is that I'd be all for trading Enroth if he's able to sustain this level of play.
Iron Crotch Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 ...and Kane Toews Kopitar Quick.Zetterburg Datsyuk, Stamkos and or Tavares could be this year. I think that covers it for the most recent history. If you are tearing it down to rebuild why would you not aspire to get the best asset available? It astounds me that people want to be good and not great. Or worse be competitive and mediorce. Toews, Kopitar, Quick, Zetterburg, and Datsyuk were not top-2 picks. And, Stamkos and Tavares haven't won a Cup. You're arguing against yourself. Your one shining example is Kane. Again, we don't need to lose on purpose. We just need a GM who can find the right players and make the right organizational moves. Whether Murray is that guy is the real question.
Claude_Verret Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 It astounds me that people think there is one single formula to build a winning franchise. You guys are absolutely obsessed with losing on purpose. There is no formula. There just isn't. We can win the Cup without McDavid and without Eichel. There are many ways to get there and it need not involve one of the two guys that you guys are obsessed with. Enjoy your team winning for a change. Christ. <end of rant> http://www.hockeysfu.../team-rankings/ Not a single poster has ever said it's the only way, but for those who support the tank it's the preferred way. You'd think that nearly a year and a half into this thing that this straw man would be extinct by now.
Drunkard Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 Someone else can go back and look if they want, but I'm fairly certain during our 2006-07 season we had a stretch or two where we lost 5 of 7 or something similar, yet we still won the President's trophy. In other words, in a long CHL season this still only counts as just a blip on the radar. It really isn't time to freak out yet guys. Or last year was the anomaly and we're going back to our MO of winning just enough games to miss out on elite talent. Plenty of games left so it could go any of 3 ways (fighting for the playoffs, tank, or the dying hopelessness of drafting in that 7-12 range). We just have to wait and see. I'm curious to see if this winning streak is going to entice Murray to move up the timing and make some roster adjustments though.
MattPie Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 Toews, Kopitar, Quick, Zetterburg, and Datsyuk were not top-2 picks. And, Stamkos and Tavares haven't won a Cup. You're arguing against yourself. Your one shining example is Kane. Again, we don't need to lose on purpose. We just need a GM who can find the right players and make the right organizational moves. Whether Murray is that guy is the real question. Good god, I wish people would stop using Zetterburg and Datsyuk as examples of good drafting. Picking two guys from 20 years ago that Detroit happened to fall into is NOT relevant in today's draft and scouting situation. Goalies don't count as they're really hard to scout so Quick is out, and Toews was a #3 pick, are you willing to cut it that fine? The #1 in 2006 was D, so you're still talking about the 2nd forward (and center) picked that year. The only player you listed that supports your point is Kopitar, who was picked 11th. That's hardly "a good GM will find those players somehow" territory. As for the flip side: Tavares plays for the Islanders, that's a gigantic hindrance to winning a cup; there's moire dysfunction there than one player can fix. Stamkos is an OK example for your point. It just proves that a top-2 pick without a good plan isn't going to bring home a cup. I think Buffalo has a solid plan set up, and most the pieces are coming into place. I'd like to see a nice high pick this year to cap off the prospect pool; I can watch the remainder of the season to get it.[0] If you're really arguing we couldn't use a Stamkos, who is averaging more than 40 goals (adjusted for GP) per year in the league, I don't know what to say. [0] I've watched in some fashion every game this season, with the exception of the Toronto turd-fest; I only watched the 11-minute condensed version of that game. I even go back and watch the games I don't see live when they become available on Gamecenter.
Derrico Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 I realize there is no one way to build a winning formula but a winning team needs goal scorers. We have very very little of that. As in historically low last year and there is very little in the pipeline. Finishing last would have assured us someone who is widely considered to have that potential in spades. Someone mentioned how he could get hit by a bus the next day in another thread. That's what it might take to stop one of the top 2 guys in this draft.
Samson's Flow Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 I realize there is no one way to build a winning formula but a winning team needs goal scorers. We have very very little of that. As in historically low last year and there is very little in the pipeline. Finishing last would have assured us someone who is widely considered to have that potential in spades. Someone mentioned how he could get hit by a bus the next day in another thread. That's what it might take to stop one of the top 2 guys in this draft. If we draft Connor McDavid, the next day the city shuts down the Metro Bus service. Problem solved. Trains too just to be safe... :nana:
3putt Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 http://www.hockeysfu.../team-rankings/ "Weaknesses: Picking early and often in the last three NHL Drafts has left the Sabres with few major weaknesses in their prospect pool. The team could probably stand to upgrade their goaltending, and they could definitely use a franchise center to hasten the rebuild, but the prospect pool is extremely deep and trending in the right direction." Potato, I disagree that there are many ways to win a cup. I believe recent history shows the most talented, least injured team is the odds on favorite. If you are arguing that there are many ways to acquire cup caliber talent then I wholeheartedly agree. However, the Sabres chose to do it by cashing in UFA's for draft picks and jettisoning the prior core in the hopes of rebuilding through the draft. Now that that path was chosen, and being in a position to optimize the strategy, anything less than claiming the top two prizes is deflating. We have a deep prospect pool, but a world class talent would really position the team for quick turnaround. If a different path to talent was chosen I would expect the same commitment to optimizing the talent core.
LGR4GM Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 I realize there is no one way to build a winning formula but a winning team needs goal scorers. We have very very little of that. As in historically low last year and there is very little in the pipeline. Finishing last would have assured us someone who is widely considered to have that potential in spades. Someone mentioned how he could get hit by a bus the next day in another thread. That's what it might take to stop one of the top 2 guys in this draft. OMG NO. Just NO! There is not "very little" in the pipeline for scoring. Armia, Bailey, Baptiste, Possler, Oloffson, Fasching, hell what about Grigorenko (who has an excellent show BTW). Lemiuex and Compher both have good shots and are scoring in their respective leagues. This conversation is asinine. when you mean: "top 15 NHL goal scorers", don't say "first line talent". First line talent is the top 90 forwards. We've got plenty of guys with that potential. Especially Reinhart and Grigorenko. Look at last years top 15 goal scorers and tell me how many of them have won a cup. How many of them were top 3 picks. I count 6 cup winners and only 5 top 3 picks if I did it right. Scoring can come from outside the top 3 picks in the draft. ...and Kane Toews Kopitar Quick.Zetterburg Datsyuk, Stamkos and or Tavares could be this year. I think that covers it for the most recent history. If you are tearing it down to rebuild why would you not aspire to get the best asset available? It astounds me that people want to be good and not great. Or worse be competitive and mediorce. Remember that time you tried to name top tier talent and failed because you forget that only 4 of those players were drafted in the top 3 and only 2 have won a cup... both from the same team. Also you used Quick? a 3rd round GT? Well done. I also like the additions of Kopitar at 11th overall and Zetterberg and Datsyuk the 6th and 7th round wonders. So you proved my point. We can still be great without having to bottom out. Yes please enlighten us. I know I haven't had this argument/discussion with you. Seriously who is going to score us future goals? Girgensons, Ennis, Reinhart, Baptiste, Bailey, Armia, at least one of our 2015 first rounders, ETC... you act like in the NHL only the top 15 guys in the league score goals. http://www.hockeysfu.../team-rankings/ "Weaknesses: Picking early and often in the last three NHL Drafts has left the Sabres with few major weaknesses in their prospect pool. The team could probably stand to upgrade their goaltending, and they could definitely use a franchise center to hasten the rebuild, but the prospect pool is extremely deep and trending in the right direction." Potato, I disagree that there are many ways to win a cup. I believe recent history shows the most talented, least injured team is the odds on favorite. If you are arguing that there are many ways to acquire cup caliber talent then I wholeheartedly agree. However, the Sabres chose to do it by cashing in UFA's for draft picks and jettisoning the prior core in the hopes of rebuilding through the draft. Now that that path was chosen, and being in a position to optimize the strategy, anything less than claiming the top two prizes is deflating. We have a deep prospect pool, but a world class talent would really position the team for quick turnaround. If a different path to talent was chosen I would expect the same commitment to optimizing the talent core. Like Sam Reinhart, Zemgus Girgensons or potentially Mikhail Grigorenko? I love how this entire fanbase is basically writing Sam Reinhart off. I love it. And this entire scenario ignores the possibility of the Sabres winning the lottery when they undoubtedly miss the playoffs and finish the season in 5th worse or something along those lines.
Derrico Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 (edited) I already brought up the Armia point, 13 goals in 73 games. Come on, you know that isn't a top scorer pace. We have nice pieces, we don't have much in the way of top line scoring. If throwing out a 7th round pick as one of your list of guys doesn't scream of trying too hard I don't know what does. I'm trying to look back at other top line scorers to see what their stats were in the AHL but most I come across went straight from Junior to the NHL. Thomas Vanek put up 42 goals in 74 games in the A the year before he made the big club. That's what goal scorers put up. Not 13 goals in 73 games. Edited December 3, 2014 by Derrico
LGR4GM Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 (edited) I already brought up the Armia point, 13 goals in 73 games. Come on, you know that isn't a top scorer pace. We have nice pieces, we don't have much in the way of top line scoring. If throwing out a 7th round pick as one of your list of guys doesn't scream of trying too hard I don't know what does. You think that Armia last year is the same as this year? I am so glad you didn't consider that he went from international ice to NHL ice in the year he only scored 7goals in 54 games or the fact that this year in the same 54 games he is pace to get 17goals. That is the increase of one year to the next. Imagine what he looks like at 22? Also who cares if he was drafted in the 7th round or not at all. I could have drafted Tanner Pearson in the 7th round during his draft year and he has 10 goals in 25 games thus far this year in the NHL. Oh and thanks for ignoring Bailey and Baptiste. What about Gustav Possler who had 8goals in 22 games last year before injury. In a league where no one really scores... he did that as a rookie. He currently has 6 in 24 but considering he blew out his knee I am not surprised it has taken him some time to get up to speed this year. Justin Bailey 15goals 24 games on a team that is complete crap without him. He generates something like 54% of his teams points. Nick Baptiste coming off a shoulder injury had 6goals in 12 games before his trade, I bet the second half of his season he drop 25 goals without hesitation if not more. Olofsson 8goals in that hard to score SHL. Pretty dam good for a rookie Fasching 5goals in 12 games for College Hockey. Dam he ain't scoring anywhere. You guys are right without Jack Eichel or Connor McDavid this team won't score. 82 shutouts is going to be rough. Edited December 3, 2014 by LGR4GM
Derrico Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 (edited) I'm cautiously optimistic with Bailey and Baptiste. Honestly, I hope they do turn into NHL scoring forwards but I just can't count on former 2nd and 3rd round picks until they show it at the professional stage. I also know that Jonathan Chechoo put up over 100 points playing for Belleville in his last year in the O but that translated to nothing once he turned professional. After coming off of literally a historic low season in goals for I feel very uneasy thinking one or more of the guys we have now will be able to bury Reinhart set ups in the future. Also I need to see Armia do much better than what he's doing now before I get excited. Many guys come over to NA and have to 'adjust' hope Armia can figure it out. I keep thinking of Elias Lindholm who also had to 'adjust' and he has more NHL goals in slightly more games than Armia does AHL goals. Edited December 3, 2014 by Derrico
darksabre Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 You think that Armia last year is the same as this year? I am so glad you didn't consider that he went from international ice to NHL ice in the year he only scored 7goals in 54 games or the fact that this year in the same 54 games he is pace to get 17goals. That is the increase of one year to the next. Imagine what he looks like at 22? Also who cares if he was drafted in the 7th round or not at all. I could have drafted Tanner Pearson in the 7th round during his draft year and he has 10 goals in 25 games thus far this year in the NHL. Oh and thanks for ignoring Bailey and Baptiste. What about Gustav Possler who had 8goals in 22 games last year before injury. In a league where no one really scores... he did that as a rookie. He currently has 6 in 24 but considering he blew out his knee I am not surprised it has taken him some time to get up to speed this year. Justin Bailey 15goals 24 games on a team that is complete crap without him. He generates something like 54% of his teams points. Nick Baptiste coming off a shoulder injury had 6goals in 12 games before his trade, I bet the second half of his season he drop 25 goals without hesitation if not more. Olofsson 8goals in that hard to score SHL. Pretty dam good for a rookie Fasching 5goals in 12 games for College Hockey. Dam he ain't scoring anywhere. You guys are right without Jack Eichel or Connor McDavid this team won't score. 82 shutouts is going to be rough. :worthy:
JJFIVEOH Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 @Liger. I like our prospect pool as well in terms of defense but who the heck on that list is going to score goals? We're going to have to try and win games 2-1 every night. There are no elite goal scoring prospects in our system. Edit - Also don't give me the Armia BS. Guy has scored a total of 13 goals in 73 AHL games. He would be scoring at a much higher clip by now if he had top line scoring potential. Zemgus scored a total of 9 goals in 64 AHL games.
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