Around the NHL: 2014-2015

[Eleven]

Well I think it leads to a bigger problem. 1 player overpayment is not a problem but if that is endemic to the NYR it does. It also appears it is somewhat of a growing problem in Manhattan.

 

It's not "growing," it's the m.o. out there and has been for about forever. Brad Richards, Scotty Gomez, Chris Drury, Wade Redden, Bobby Holik, Valeri Kamensky .... And I know I'm forgetting more than a few.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Eleven

[LastPommerFan]

It's not "growing," it's the m.o. out there and has been for about forever. Brad Richards, Scotty Gomez, Chris Drury, Wade Redden, Bobby Holik, Valeri Kamensky .... And I know I'm forgetting more than a few.

 

Wayne Gretzky

[Taro T]

 

Well I think it leads to a bigger problem. 1 player overpayment is not a problem but if that is endemic to the NYR it does. It also appears it is somewhat of a growing problem in Manhattan.

To quote the aforementioned Mr. Gretzky in the 'Bo knows' commercial: "No." Because of this:

 

 

 

It's not "growing," it's the m.o. out there and has been for about forever. Brad Richards, Scotty Gomez, Chris Drury, Wade Redden, Bobby Holik, Valeri Kamensky .... And I know I'm forgetting more than a few.

Not only is it "not growing", if anything, they are getting better: Richards is gone; Gaborik is gone; and they actually have some homegrown talent rather than shedding it all for top names. Items that would have been unheard of anytime from ~1990-2008.

[LastPommerFan]

To quote the aforementioned Mr. Gretzky in the 'Bo knows' commercial: "No." Because of this:

 

 

Not only is it "not growing", if anything, they are getting better: Richards is gone; Gaborik is gone; and they actually have some homegrown talent rather than shedding it all for top names. Items that would have been unheard of anytime from ~1990-2008.

 

:unsure: Beukeboom, Zubov, Kovalev, Amonte, Leetch, Nemchinov, Richter... And that's just 1994

[Taro T]

 

 

:unsure: Beukeboom, Zubov, Kovalev, Amonte, Leetch, Nemchinov, Richter... And that's just 1994

:unsure: right back at you.

 

Beukeboom - Edmonton's 1st choice, part of Messier deal, not homegrown.

 

Amonte traded away in deal that brought in Matteau (guy that scored OT goal vs Joisey). :doh:

 

So you've got 5 guys on that squad; 3 of whom were then traded for (among others) Robitaille, Ulfie, Nedved, and Tikkanen (what goes around, comes around).

 

Non-homegrown on that team: Messier, Graves, Larmer, Tikkanen, Anderson, Noonan, Matteau, MacTavish, Lowe, Karpotsev, Beukeboom, Gilbert, Wells, Olczyk, Kypreos, Kocur, Lidster, & Healy. (And I'll save you the typing and agree that Noonan, Gilbert, Wells, & even Lidster weren't 'top names.')

 

EDIT: Also, thought Girardi & J Moore were homegrown - not the case, so had thought it was 1/2 of top 6, top goalie & 3 of top 5 D were homegrown.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Taro T

[LastPommerFan]

Not only is it "not growing", if anything, they are getting better: Richards is gone; Gaborik is gone; and they actually have some homegrown talent rather than shedding it all for top names. Items that would have been unheard of anytime from ~1990-2008.

 

It was not unheard of for the Rangers to have top, even HoF level, home grown talent in the 90s. This isn't really an argument, it's more of a fact.

 

24 months ago, they traded two guys who, this past season, equalled and outscored Rick Nash.

 

3 months ago they traded their home grown captain and a second round pick for a billion year old winger.

 

If it weren't for the compliance buyouts (which they had no knowledge of when they signed the contracts) they'd still have 10% of the cap tied up in Brad Richards.

 

I contend the only reason they're not making stupid homegrown talent for big names moves this summer is they've successfully handcuffed themselves into cap purgatory (not hell, it's only temporary)

 

(also, agreed on the :unsure: on J. BOom. Not sure what I was thinking)

[Taro T]

 

 

It was not unheard of for the Rangers to have top, even HoF level, home grown talent in the 90s. This isn't really an argument, it's more of a fact.

 

24 months ago, they traded two guys who, this past season, equalled and outscored Rick Nash.

 

3 months ago they traded their home grown captain and a second round pick for a billion year old winger.

 

If it weren't for the compliance buyouts (which they had no knowledge of when they signed the contracts) they'd still have 10% of the cap tied up in Brad Richards.

 

I contend the only reason they're not making stupid homegrown talent for big names moves this summer is they've successfully handcuffed themselves into cap purgatory (not hell, it's only temporary)

 

(also, agreed on the :unsure: on J. BOom. Not sure what I was thinking)

To the bolded regarding HoF level talent, both of whom (Richter & Leetch) were drafted in the mid-80's and were well established into the Rags system by 1990; Leetch was clearly going to be a star, and Richter would soon make Beezer expendable. IMHO, they are poor examples of the Rags keeping homegrown talent over other teams' stars because they were emerging stars in their own right before the league took its HEAVY skew towards big name teams spending tons more than the smaller teams. And even Zubov hadn't done enough to keep from being expendable when Luc and Ulfie were available a year or so after '94. (Also, the fact they (both the USHockey HoFers) are Americans made them both huge fan favorites; short of needing to trade 1 to land Gretzky, I find it difficult to come up w/ a scenario that they were tradeable. )

 

 

Back to the present. Since they traded for Nash 2 years ago and the ensuing lockout, they've traded away Gaborik for youth and sent Richards packing - 2 extremely un-MSG moves if there ever were.

 

As for Callahan, didn't they make him a very big offer that he wouldn't take? (Something like $36 over 6 years? Which is slightly less than he took from TB.)

 

They also gave up on Del Zotto which supports your view that nothing's changed, but he was traded for a guy w/ less star power, so I'd say that one's a wash.

 

I look at this roster and see less BIG names on it than in the past, though it does still have several big names. So, if anything, since the last lockout they are bringing in (on net) fewer big names.

 

And if, when their time in cap purgatory ends, they do go back to the full on love affair w/ big names, slightly overpaying Brassard isn't the lead salvo.

[LastPommerFan]

And if, when their time in cap purgatory ends, they do go back to the full on love affair w/ big names, slightly overpaying Brassard isn't the lead salvo.

 

oh, absolutely on this.

 

Had they not been so dumb so recently, they could have had Dubinsky in that slot and Anisimov where Nash is and be way better off at just over half the price.

[Taro T]

 

 

oh, absolutely on this.

 

Had they not been so dumb so recently, they could have had Dubinsky in that slot and Anisimov where Nash is and be way better off at just over half the price.

Definitely. It was a bad trade for the Rags at the time and it doesn't get better w/ age. (Even though they made it to the Finals this year.)

[LGR4GM]

I look at this roster and see less BIG names on it than in the past, though it does still have several big names. So, if anything, since the last lockout they are bringing in (on net) fewer big names.

 

And if, when their time in cap purgatory ends, they do go back to the full on love affair w/ big names, slightly overpaying Brassard isn't the lead salvo.

But isn't part of the reason for a lack of big names not only the trades we just mentioned but also the complete lack of depth to trade for top pieces? I am looking at their prospect pool and the best forward is Danny Kristo (drafted by Montreal) Pavel Buchnevich (KHL currently) Oscar Lindberg (drafted by Phoenix) and Anthony Duclair (50g in the Q).

 

Now we could argue that we are spoiled as Sabres fans because we have such obscene depth. We could also discuss the NYR defense which does have a little depth to it. However let us focus on forwards and centers. Lindberg is the only current center in the rangers pool I can see making it. So realistically this is a team that has become quite thin in recent years and most assuredly has an issue with developing its own talent.

[Iron Crotch]

Happy 58th birthday to Real "Buddy" Cloutier.

[Eleven]

Happy 58th birthday to Real "Buddy" Cloutier.

 

Fake "Buddy" Cloutier's birthday is today, too. What a coincidence.

[Taro T]

 

But isn't part of the reason for a lack of big names not only the trades we just mentioned but also the complete lack of depth to trade for top pieces? I am looking at their prospect pool and the best forward is Danny Kristo (drafted by Montreal) Pavel Buchnevich (KHL currently) Oscar Lindberg (drafted by Phoenix) and Anthony Duclair (50g in the Q).

 

Now we could argue that we are spoiled as Sabres fans because we have such obscene depth. We could also discuss the NYR defense which does have a little depth to it. However let us focus on forwards and centers. Lindberg is the only current center in the rangers pool I can see making it. So realistically this is a team that has become quite thin in recent years and most assuredly has an issue with developing its own talent.

You can try and morph this discussion into something it isn't, but I'm not going there with you because the Rags just aren't that interesting. My comments entering this portion of this thread were regarding a possible $1.5MM/yr overpayment not putting the Rags into any true cap jail.

 

I now truly regret stating that because 10 posts in July on the NYR is faaaaaaar exceeding my quota. Sorry.

[LastPommerFan]

You can try and morph this discussion into something it isn't, but I'm not going there with you because the Rags just aren't that interesting. My comments entering this portion of this thread were regarding a possible $1.5MM/yr overpayment not putting the Rags into any true cap jail.

 

I now truly regret stating that because 10 posts in July on the NYR is faaaaaaar exceeding my quota. Sorry.

 

I believe a term to describe what Liger was doing might be "Segway" or "Transition". Which, it turns out, are not just a silly scooter and color changing eyewear.

[Taro T]

 

 

I believe a term to describe what Liger was doing might be "Segway" or "Transition". Which, it turns out, are not just a silly scooter and color changing eyewear.

Could be. And hopefully somebody else will want to have that discussion w/ him. This is my 10th post in this segment and like Dennis Miller used to say "I ... am ... Out ... of here."

 

(As predicted, I got dragged back in for 1 last 1.)

Edited July 31, 2014 by Taro T

[LastPommerFan]

Could be. And hopefully somebody else will want to have that discussion w/ him. This is my 10th post in this segment and like Dennis Miller used to say "I ... am ... Out ... of here."

 

(As predicted, I got dragged back in for 1 last 1.)

 

Dragging you in for the last word is like trying to get someone to take the last Cream Ale at an AA meeting :D

[That Aud Smell]

You can try and morph this discussion into something it isn't, but I'm not going there with you

....

I now truly regret stating that because 10 posts in July on the NYR is faaaaaaar exceeding my quota.

 

Something about this called this to mind:

 

[LGR4GM]

Geez didn't realize a discussion had to have this 1 finite point and couldn't branch into other areas of interest.

[Taro T]

Geez didn't realize a discussion had to have this 1 finite point and couldn't branch into other areas of interest.

:huh: Going on the asumption your comment was directed at me; if not, well as Emily used to say, "nevermind."

 

I didn't say the discussion needed to stay on 1 topic. I merely stated that I was not interested in the discussion you wished to have in a post directly replying to 1 of my posts. (If you recall, you started your reply to me w/ a question. Had your initial reply to my post not been a question, I probably would have ignored your post. It's typically kind of rude to not respond back to a legit question, so I replied to your question.) I even followed that up w/ a hope that you do find someone that wants to discuss your topic w/ you. Which of those indicate posts must stay firmly on a single topic? (And remember, the discussion is occuring in one of those omnibus threads, I might add.) I almost want to end this post w/ "lighten up Francis" but am convinced it wouldn't be recieved in the manner it would be intended.

[LastPommerFan]

You can try and morph this discussion into something it isn't, but I'm not going there with you because the Rags just aren't that interesting.

 

It's this line, just came across a touch more biting than intended, I think.

 

Curse of the written word, it lacks that certain "je ne sais quoi" that humans use when communicating in person.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

It's summertime and the heat is on ...

 

 

:flirt:

[LGR4GM]

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie

My uneducated opinion from afar: MTL likes, maybe really likes, Subban but doesn't LOVE him. And you have to LOVE someone at 8 x $8-9M+ per.

 

IF Bob is right on the numbers here I don't blame Montreal for balking. I personally don't think Subban deserves 8yrs and 8mil. I mean don't get me wrong I think he is good but you are edging near Sidney Crosby money with that deal. That would be more than Weber, Suter, Chara. Not sure PK is up there.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I heard on the radio coming back from Friday Prayers that both sides have presented their cases and it is in the hands of the arbitrator.

 

Question ...

 

Under the new CBA can teams still walk away from an arbitration award?

 

If so, who here thinks that Montreal will blink?

 

I think they will probably accept the arbitrators verdict, or maybe try to sign PK before the ruling comes down.

[TrueBlueGED]

I'll happily take Subban off their hands.

[LGR4GM]

I heard on the radio coming back from Friday Prayers that both sides have presented their cases and it is in the hands of the arbitrator.

 

Question ...

 

Under the new CBA can teams still walk away from an arbitration award?

 

If so, who here thinks that Montreal will blink?

 

I think they will probably accept the arbitrators verdict, or maybe try to sign PK before the ruling comes down.

They will sign the arbitrator award and then try to move him.