GAME DISCUSSION THREAD GDT: New York Islanders at Buffalo 4-13-14 at 5:00 PM EDT

[Weave]

So it's wrong to sell off players who have no intention of re-signing and to rebuild your team through the primary mechanism of team building, the draft? I ###### give up, Sabres fans aren't happy unless they can bitch and moan and feel slighted.

 

You go weeks sounding like an adult and then you come up with posts like these.. Look at the substance of those trades and the trades leading up to this season. Consider the decision to start the year with 4 or 5 rookies on the ice. If it was simply a rebuild we wouldn't have been icing an AHL team all season. This was an intentional tank by team management.

 

Trading a 1st line player with over a year left on his deal is not standard operating procedure for a team missing the playoffs, however. Neither is making no attempt to improve the roster in the offseason. Neither is trading a top-4 Dman (Sekera) with a cap friendly contract and two years left, at the draft. The Sabres absolutely intended to lose, and lose hard.

 

Precisely.

 

I think the league could say our tanking was purposeful with a good deal more certainty if we had kept RR and DR. Firing them alone shows that we weren't standing for the abysmal play on the ice

 

I don't recall which interview it was but Murray spoke of manipulating the roster for draft position. Planned tanking spoken aloud into microphones.

[Jsixspd]

Oh and 2 of the 3 fights were awesome. The tough small guy taking down Scott was pretty cool, and Scott laughing about it and shaking his head afterwards was funny.

 

Nick Deslauriers is a bad man. Awesome fight.

 

It was nice to see the Sabres actually reacting and fighting back. I think Scott's presence got 'em motivated.

[MattPie]

Sure would like to see the intermission reports for Roby's last game. Not sure why they've been blocked by NHL GameCenter the last couple of weeks. It's really quite aggravating

 

The blocks seem to be far more common on MSG-MSG games (NYC-area teams). I don't know why that would be, unless MSG doesn't like send the data stream to the NHL for some reason.

 

Knapp is very good in close; seems like that last longish shot fooled him.

 

Anyone check the alignment of his eyes?

 

There's a 75% chance that we don't get the first pick. 64.3-66.9% if we get NY's pick.

 

In theory, but it's really just 75%. NYI don't have to decide until June 1, and it's really unlikely they're going to give that pick to BUF if it's #1.

[Claude_Verret]

 

I don't recall which interview it was but Murray spoke of manipulating the roster for draft position. Planned tanking spoken aloud into microphones.

 

I think the league would rightfully take issue with a planned and executed tank on the coach and player level. but I don't think something like this could be carried out even if teams tried it, players and coaches have too much competitive fire and pride. But I don't see "manipulating the roster for draft position" as much different than teams in contention that manipulate their roster for playoff position, it's just taking a longer view on the ultimate goal. If only DR had manipulated the roster for draft position sooner, we may not have had to resort to this total rebuild.

[Eleven]

You go weeks sounding like an adult and then you come up with posts like these.. Look at the substance of those trades and the trades leading up to this season. Consider the decision to start the year with 4 or 5 rookies on the ice. If it was simply a rebuild we wouldn't have been icing an AHL team all season. This was an intentional tank by team management.

 

 

 

Precisely.

 

 

 

I don't recall which interview it was but Murray spoke of manipulating the roster for draft position. Planned tanking spoken aloud into microphones.

 

I have no reason not to trust you, but are you sure you heard him correctly? It seems an incredibly stupid thing to say.

[dEnnis the Menace]

I have no reason not to trust you, but are you sure you heard him correctly? It seems an incredibly stupid thing to say.

 

agreed. I thought it was Ted Black that said something of the sort, not GMTM.

[Eleven]

agreed. I thought it was Ted Black that said something of the sort, not GMTM.

 

That seems pretty stupid too.

[apuszczalowski]

Yep. Zero players tanked. Some players played their guts out. The front office devised and executed the plan, which was to maximize return for expiring assets. This had the fortunate, necessary, expected, and probably planed side effect of causing the team to maximize its draft position.

Thats why i have no problem with them taking this season as a "Tank" year to rebuild. They sold off expiring contracts to gain assetts to rebuild instead of losing them for nothing. If they spend this offseason without trying to improve this team and continue to just sell assetts for future picks/prospects, thats where I have a problem and so should anyone who spends a dime on this team. You should have bottomed out after the cluster###### that was this entire season, this is a team with an owner who says they have the resources to spend and improve, with plenty of cap space, plenty of prospects, and a ton of draft picks, theres no reason they can't be a team atleast competing for the final playoff spot next year.

[SwampD]

I have no reason not to trust you, but are you sure you heard him correctly? It seems an incredibly stupid thing to say.

He said it. I commented that day how stupid it was and that he should be careful saying it. He has said it since then as well.

 

I guess I know what I'm doing today. Unless they had the sound bite removed from the WGR site.

[apuszczalowski]

I don't recall which interview it was but Murray spoke of manipulating the roster for draft position. Planned tanking spoken aloud into microphones.

Although what Murray said was a little different, his comment is pretty much saying that you go into the season with the intent of being a good team and trying to win. If the trade deadline comes around and theres no chance of the playoffs (outside of a miracle) then you might make some moves to set yourself up for a better draft pick instead of making moves to try and work the miracle. He wasn't talking about heading into the season with the goal of getting the #1 overall pick

 

He said it. I commented that day how stupid it was and that he should be careful saying it. He has said it since then as well.

 

I guess I know what I'm doing today. Unless they had the sound bite removed from the WGR site.

I remember him saying it too, but I believe it was when reffering to and being asked about the trade deadline, that its something you do when you get to the deadline and your far out of a playoff spot your focus then might be to sell and try to get a better draft decision. I don't believe it had anything to do with that being the intention at the begining of a season

[SwampD]

Although what Murray said was a little different, his comment is pretty much saying that you go into the season with the intent of being a good team and trying to win. If the trade deadline comes around and theres no chance of the playoffs (outside of a miracle) then you might make some moves to set yourself up for a better draft pick instead of making moves to try and work the miracle. He wasn't talking about heading into the season with the goal of getting the #1 overall pick

 

I remember him saying it too, but I believe it was when reffering to and being asked about the trade deadline, that its something you do when you get to the deadline and your far out of a playoff spot your focus then might be to sell and try to get a better draft decision. I don't believe it had anything to do with that being the intention at the begining of a season

If that was the case I wouldn't even care (or probably even remember). He was specifically talking about getting FAs and trying to make the playoffs next year. It had nothing to do with the trade deadline.

[apuszczalowski]

Theres a very simple move the league could make with the draft that could make teams think long and hard about making their focus on the draft instead of improving the team to make the playoffs and its to make the entire positioning in the draft of the teams not in the playoffs based off of a lottery. In other words, all the teams that don't make the playoffs get a ball in the lottery, they then draw the ball for each team and thats the order you pick, so you could finish with the worst record in NHL history, but still draft outside the top ten, instead of being guaranteed at worst the #2 spot. There would then be no reward/incentive for finishing the worst and it would make the competition for the final playoff spot better cause more teams would put up a fight to get in

 

If that was the case I wouldn't even care (or probably even remember). He was specifically talking about getting FAs and trying to make the playoffs next year. It had nothing to do with the trade deadline.

The part about manipulating the roster for the draft was about the trade deadline, that I do remember, IIRC it was a comment he made when asked about the trade deadline

[Eleven]

Theres a very simple move the league could make with the draft that could make teams think long and hard about making their focus on the draft instead of improving the team to make the playoffs and its to make the entire positioning in the draft of the teams not in the playoffs based off of a lottery. In other words, all the teams that don't make the playoffs get a ball in the lottery, they then draw the ball for each team and thats the order you pick, so you could finish with the worst record in NHL history, but still draft outside the top ten, instead of being guaranteed at worst the #2 spot. There would then be no reward/incentive for finishing the worst and it would make the competition for the final playoff spot better cause more teams would put up a fight to get in

 

The part about manipulating the roster for the draft was about the trade deadline, that I do remember, IIRC it was a comment he made when asked about the trade deadline

 

That's the way the NBA lottery originally worked, IIRC, and that system has its obvious flaws, too.

[Weave]

I have no reason not to trust you, but are you sure you heard him correctly? It seems an incredibly stupid thing to say.

 

I'm too damned lazy to go look for it, but I stand by him saying it, and I remember the context being different from what our northern forum brother recalls. For whatever that is worth.

 

Thanks Swamp for the back up.

[SwampD]

Theres a very simple move the league could make with the draft that could make teams think long and hard about making their focus on the draft instead of improving the team to make the playoffs and its to make the entire positioning in the draft of the teams not in the playoffs based off of a lottery. In other words, all the teams that don't make the playoffs get a ball in the lottery, they then draw the ball for each team and thats the order you pick, so you could finish with the worst record in NHL history, but still draft outside the top ten, instead of being guaranteed at worst the #2 spot. There would then be no reward/incentive for finishing the worst and it would make the competition for the final playoff spot better cause more teams would put up a fight to get in

 

The part about manipulating the roster for the draft was about the trade deadline, that I do remember, IIRC it was a comment he made when asked about the trade deadline

http://audio.wgr550.com/a/88362788/3-6-ted-black-with-jeremy-white-and-matthew-coller.htm?q=black

 

22:30

[SwampD]

He said it again at a presser with Murray, but I can't find that one. I am at work after all.

[Eleven]

http://audio.wgr550....ler.htm?q=black

 

22:30

 

Black definitely is talking about not making the playoffs next year and not signing the free agents that would be necessary to make a run to a 7th or 8th seed. He is not talking about manipulating the roster (actually, much the opposite). I still don't like what he is saying, though.

 

He said it again at a presser with Murray, but I can't find that one. I am at work after all.

 

That's ok!

[SwampD]

I have to add that the search in audio function in the WGR on demand page is pretty incredible.

[Eleven]

I have to add that the search in audio function in the WGR on demand page is pretty incredible.

 

That is neat, isn't it?

[Samson's Flow]

Theres a very simple move the league could make with the draft that could make teams think long and hard about making their focus on the draft instead of improving the team to make the playoffs and its to make the entire positioning in the draft of the teams not in the playoffs based off of a lottery. In other words, all the teams that don't make the playoffs get a ball in the lottery, they then draw the ball for each team and thats the order you pick, so you could finish with the worst record in NHL history, but still draft outside the top ten, instead of being guaranteed at worst the #2 spot. There would then be no reward/incentive for finishing the worst and it would make the competition for the final playoff spot better cause more teams would put up a fight to get in

 

The part about manipulating the roster for the draft was about the trade deadline, that I do remember, IIRC it was a comment he made when asked about the trade deadline

Then again the whole point of having the worst teams getting the top pick is to promote league parity. Theoretically, the worst teams have the least amount of talent and therefore need the top prospects. The league can't be too tank averse without creating dynasties where the best teams get better and the worst teams are stuck in perpetual suckitude.

[Eleven]

Well, whatever may have been said in the past, he definitely is NOT talking about purposefully tanking right now. In fact, he's saying that it's impracticable because coaches and players want to win. "What guy is going to play badly so he can lose his job the next year to McDavid?" (Paraphrased.)

Edited April 15, 2014 by Eleven

[TrueBlueGED]

No draft system is going to be perfect. I understand why some want to eliminate all motivation to tank a season, but how often does that really happen? It has happened and it will happen again, but I don't think it's a chronic issue. I think promoting parity and making it easier to go worst to first (Hyperbole alert) benefits the league more than changing policy around a rare event (the deliberate tank).

 

Well, whatever may have been said in the past, he definitely is NOT talking about purposefully tanking right now. In fact, he's saying that it's impracticable because coaches and players want to win. "What guy is going to play badly so he can lose his job the next year to McDavid?" (Paraphrased.)

 

Disclaimer: I have not yet listened to the presser. All this says to me is Murray is smart enough not to say they're deliberately icing s pathetic team that can't hope but to finish last. Saying you can't make players/coaches tank is nothing new, we all know this. Doesn't mean he's going to go all-in on improving the team next season.

[qwksndmonster]

Disclaimer: I have not yet listened to the presser. All this says to me is Murray is smart enough not to say they're deliberately icing s pathetic team that can't hope but to finish last. Saying you can't make players/coaches tank is nothing new, we all know this. Doesn't mean he's going to go all-in on improving the team next season.

There's a pretty jarring part near the end where Tim Murray says (paraphrased): How do you tank? I don't think I'd be good at it because the players want to win and the coach wants to win and it's hard. The only way I could think of doing it is signing a bunch of 4th line guys to fill in your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines because as soon as you sign a guy they want to win. I would only be able to tank really obviously and get in trouble (chuckle) [laughs from the crowd]... It's not gonna be a rebuild that takes years, but you don't build overnight. We're building the right way.

 

So he condemns the plan the team executed this year, perhaps because they were carrying out Darcy's plan that had already been set too fast in motion. And then he said that they have to build the right way, perhaps indicating another year of finishing last. As far as I can tell.

[darksabre]

 

There's a pretty jarring part near the end where Tim Murray says (paraphrased): How do you tank? I don't think I'd be good at it because the players want to win and the coach wants to win and it's hard. The only way I could think of doing it is signing a bunch of 4th line guys to fill in your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines because as soon as you sign a guy they want to win. I would only be able to tank really obviously and get in trouble (chuckle) [laughs from the crowd]... It's not gonna be a rebuild that takes years, but you don't build overnight. We're building the right way.

 

So he condemns the plan the team executed this year, perhaps because they were carrying out Darcy's plan that had already been set too fast in motion. And then he said that they have to build the right way, perhaps indicating another year of finishing last. As far as I can tell.

 

I don't think he's making any predictions about where the team will finish next year. I think he's being practical. He's going to add where he can and tweak where he can with no expectations of either failure or success.

[Eleven]

No draft system is going to be perfect. I understand why some want to eliminate all motivation to tank a season, but how often does that really happen? It has happened and it will happen again, but I don't think it's a chronic issue. I think promoting parity and making it easier to go worst to first (Hyperbole alert) benefits the league more than changing policy around a rare event (the deliberate tank).

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I have not yet listened to the presser. All this says to me is Murray is smart enough not to say they're deliberately icing s pathetic team that can't hope but to finish last. Saying you can't make players/coaches tank is nothing new, we all know this. Doesn't mean he's going to go all-in on improving the team next season.

 

Listen to the presser. He went well beyond that. He explained why it is impracticable to tank.