Buffalo Bills 2014

[Hoss]

 

 

You want to suspend/fine a ref for enforcing something specifically against a rule?

 

Players know they cannot do that and have been flagged for it before

 

######. Tebow did it constantly... No flag. Players are absolutely not flagged for expressing their christian beliefs.

 

 

 

I'm with Numark on this one. He'd have been flagged for going to one knee and doing the sign of the cross, or pointing skyward too.

 

You're not serious, right? Either that or you don't watch NFL games.

[TrueBlueGED]

There's one big difference, Orton can move the ball. Orton had several games where he came in for relief, so figuring out yards/game average is tough. But he's had numerous 300+ yard games and a few 400+ yard games. EJ came close too 300 once.

 

Orton had 1 300 yard game in his first 33 games, so it would seem his hitting 300 has more to do with having 70 starts than being good. One of those 300 games came with Chicago, all of the rest came with Denver/Dallas. I have a hard time believing he's going to step into a run-oriented offense and start slinging it. 11 300 yard games and 2 400 yard games in 70 starts...I think the career averages speak plenty here. He'll get you 1-2 big games per year and be bad-mediocre the rest.

 

Unfortunatley I'm not a stats guy and as much as I'd like to be, I'm not a good debater either, but just looking at this current QB, right now, especially this week can you honestly tell me that a change is the worst thing in the world. Because I can't see a performance much worse than the Houston game that we only lost by 6

 

My position can be summed up simply: EJ doesn't deserve to start based on performance (I wouldn't have given up on him yet, but that's not the same thing as calling him good), but turning to Orton is not going to produce materially better results because Orton is a known quantity. Orton might not be worse, but his career shows he's virtually indistinguishable from EJ, on average (I don't think it's fair or a good argument to say he's better than EJ's worst...look at the big picture). The difference is EJ has 14 starts and Orton has 70...Orton is who he is, and if EJ has even a 2% chance of the proverbial light bulb clicking on, he's the better play.

 

Anyone can look up stats, but what do your eyes tell you about Orton? Stats are devoid of context. They never tell the whole picture. Personally, I liked Orton in Chicago and in Denver, although he can be inconsistent from game-to-game. He is a "game manager" more than a gunslinger, but he makes quick decisions and can win with the proper supporting cast.

 

This decision has little to do with Orton and has everything to do with EJ playing absolutely terrible football. Getting him out of there increases the team's chance of winning in the short-term. And, sitting the bench for a while will give EJ a chance to regain some confidence, which is clearly shot.

 

I'm not going to pretend to have seen all of Orton's 70 starts, but I feel comfortable saying I've seen at least 1/3 of them...or put another way, I've seen him start more games than Manuel. He's not good, I wouldn't even consider him a game manager. He has a weak arm, makes poor decisions with regularity, is every bit the checkdown machine that Manuel is, and isn't exactly accurate with the football either. I think his play matches his stats and they are absolutely representative of what we can expect out of him if he starts the next 12. In my view, the only good justification for this move is that a locker room mutiny was imminent (which is possible). But even then, it's just a short-term fix, because even if it takes a few games it will become evident that Orton is who his stats say he is--the functional equivalent of Manuel, minus the upside. What happens then in the locker room?

 

Brady is looking bad....it is making me cackle and rub my hands together like a cliched villian...... and I am ok with it haha

 

This is the only redeeming quality of this weekend with respect to football.

Edited September 30, 2014 by TrueBluePhD

[Weave]

I seem to recall hearing that "going to ground" as part of a scoring celebration was specifically made illegal.

[Johnny DangerFace]

I read up on and its pretty interesting. You are not allowed to "go to the ground" in a celebration unless you are giving praise. There doesn't seem to be an objective standard on what is praise so praying and "giving thanks" have been allowed. In this case, the player went competently to the ground, and would be pretty understandable if the ref didn't pick up on if he was giving praise or not.

 

So should he have thrown the penalty, it doesn't look like it. Is it reasonable that he threw the penalty, in my opinion yes

Edited September 30, 2014 by Numark

[Hoss]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/09/husain-abdullah-penalty-prayer-celebration

 

Ha, here is tank's case

 

Not to mention the numerous other players who do similar acts. Brandon Marshall goes to his knees almost every time he scores.

 

I don't see how the refs didn't end up huddling and deciding they weren't going to uphold the penalty.

 

 

(In response to your edited post it seems to be claiming that the ref is allowed to throw the flag because of his own ignorance as to what was going on? It should've been clear to SOMEBODY on that squad what was going on.)

Edited September 30, 2014 by Tankalicious

[Johnny DangerFace]

Not to mention the numerous other players who do similar acts. Brandon Marshall goes to his knees almost every time he scores.

 

I don't see how the refs didn't end up huddling and deciding they weren't going to uphold the penalty.

 

i re updated my post with more info. I just don't think they knew what he was doing which is understandable. Should be corrected tho

 

I think there is zero-chance this is pro-christian or anything to do with religion tho

 

 

haha didnt manuel go to one knee after the panthers comeback? Good times

Edited September 30, 2014 by Numark

[Hoss]

I just don't think the NFL can keep hiding behind ignorance, especially when it penalized Sean Payton for it. Abdullah is well-known for his religious beliefs, and the sujood is a very common form of prayer that really is hard to mistake.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Tankalicious

[Johnny DangerFace]

I just don't think the NFL can keep hiding behind ignorance. Abdullah is well-known for his religious beliefs, and the sujood is a very common form of prayor that really is hard to mistake.

 

I'm not arguing and I am curious. But has this happened before in any manner (preference of anything related to Christianity over anything relating to Islam?)

 

Because if there has been, then you may have a point.

 

BUT, if this is the only case then your point is a big stretch. This is one very understandable and reasonable incident.

[Hoss]

 

 

I'm not arguing and I am curious. But has this happened before in any manner (preference of anything related to Christianity over anything relating to Islam?)

 

Because if there has been, then you may have a point.

 

BUT, if this is the only case then your point is a big stretch. This is one very understandable and reasonable incident.

 

I'm not really arguing that there is a preference being shown, although im sure an argument could be found (not interested nor do I think it matters).

 

I'm just saying this is a very odd instance and really isn't excusable.

 

I hope we get a chance to hear from Abdullah on this. He and his brother once took a year off from the NFL for religious commitments. I do not agree with many of the principals of Islam, but it would be a near relief to hear somebody praise somebody other than God in a post game moment. There are hardly any more things less generic and ingenuine than players thanking God after a positive moment.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Tankalicious

[Johnny DangerFace]

I'm not really arguing that there is a preference being shown, although im sure an argument could be found (not interested nor do I think it matters).

 

I'm just saying this is a very odd instance and really isn't excusable.

 

Ah gotcha. I was half hoping there were other instances lol.

 

I get where you are coming from, but just looking at this event. If a reasonable average person saw the player celebrate the way he did, would he know it was religious? My answer would be maybe. So I wouldn't fault someone for not knowing. They should be informed however definitely. I dont think there is any reason to have your pitchforks ready though :P

[Hoss]

I don't think this is anything HUGE, but I do think it shows an issue. There are other faiths in the NFL and its employees should be more aware. I do believe the NFL should issue an apology to Abdullah. It's just the right move for a league that has had so many issues with PR recently.

[inkman]

I don't think this is anything HUGE, but I do think it shows an issue. There are other faiths in the NFL and its employees should be more aware. I do believe the NFL should issue an apology to Abdullah. It's just the right move for a league that has had so many issues with PR recently.

I wonder if the ref had any idea what Abdullah was doing

[Hoss]

I wonder if the ref had any idea what Abdullah was doing

 

That's the thing. He probably didn't. And that's a bad excuse. Especially considering it's nearly impossible that nobody on that reffing crew knew what was going on. It's a pretty unmistakable motion considering Abdullah's history and how much it's been shown on all forms of media in the last decade plus. Somebody should've said "hey, dipshit, it's a form of prayer."

 

 

Abdullah commented after the game that he believes he was penalized for sliding and not the prayer. He's always been a class act, and I'm not surprised at the subtle defense of the ref. However, if that were the case, I assume the ref would've clarified that.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Tankalicious

[JJFIVEOH]

Orton had 1 300 yard game in his first 33 games, so it would seem his hitting 300 has more to do with having 70 starts than being good. One of those 300 games came with Chicago, all of the rest came with Denver/Dallas. I have a hard time believing he's going to step into a run-oriented offense and start slinging it. 11 300 yard games and 2 400 yard games in 70 starts...I think the career averages speak plenty here. He'll get you 1-2 big games per year and be bad-mediocre the rest.

 

 

Fair enough, we shall see.

 

By the way, don't let Numark find out that you're using stats to prove a point. :angel:

[ubkev]

 

 

######. Tebow did it constantly... No flag. Players are absolutely not flagged for expressing their christian beliefs.

 

 

 

You're not serious, right? Either that or you don't watch NFL games.

 

Didn't a Packers player get flagged for it in the super bowl a couple years ago?

 

I'm not saying it's not a stupid rule, and I'm not saying they enforce it every time. I'm saying it is up to the refs to determine "excessive celebration" and they get it wrong sometimes. I have a feeling the league will apologise for this if they haven't already. Buy hey, I've been wrong before.

[kishoph]

Glad to hear Orton is getting the nod. I agree with the sentiment that the locker room played a part in this. All the beatings our receivers were taking from EJ hanging them out to dry on passes along with the offense sputtering out in general had to take its toll.

 

Time to find out if Manuel was holding the offense back or if Hackett just plain sucks. I have a feeling it's going to look much improved despite facing the top defense on the road next week.

 

Reading the post on twitter from players shortly after it happened, I'd say that the "locker room" didn't care for the decision. If the problems with the O-line aren't fixed, it doesn't matter if it's Manuel or Orton. Deciding to abandon the running game (our supposed strength) and and play into JJ Watt's strength while he's abusing the O-line was about as stupid as a move the coaching staff could of made.

Edited September 30, 2014 by kishoph

[darksabre]

I wish I could tell every idiot in Buffalo that the Patriots finally getting bad doesn't make the Bills good.

 

I would have liked to compete with the Patriots while they were busy winning three Super Bowls and we were busy missing the playoffs. That would have been nice. Anything else is just hollow.

[That Aud Smell]

 

 

Depends on where our pick is. Took a second and a fourth for the Vikings to move up last year.

 

Yeah. Seems too rich. We gave up the 4th for Watkins, iirc.

[LastPommerFan]

I'm not saying it's not a stupid rule, and I'm not saying they enforce it every time. I'm saying it is up to the refs to determine "excessive celebration" and they get it wrong sometimes. I have a feeling the league will apologise for this if they haven't already. Buy hey, I've been wrong before.

 

I think he was penalized for the 5-yard slide on his knees, not the bow. The ref is reaching for the flag well before he has a chance to figure out what he's doing when he bows down.

 

Edited September 30, 2014 by Glass Case Of Emotion

[dEnnis the Menace]

1) on the penalty in the end zone for going to the knees: you can't slide in like that. That was absolutely the reason for the penalty. If he would've run in, stopped then knelt as he did, it shouldn't have been a penalty.

 

2) After doing a little research last night/watching old game highlights of Orton, I've come to the following conclusion: He isn't a gunslinger, but he will at least take shots. Also, this is probably some of the best (complete) supporting cast that he's played with (in regards to the running backs & receivers combined). He's had one or the other during his career, but not both IMO.

 

3) This move is probably a "save the locker room, save my job, try to save the year" move. They want to get to the playoffs, for their job security and for the obvious reason of just getting to the playoffs.

[Hoss]

I also believe the ref may have been penalizing him for the slide, but it was announced as a penalty for going to his knees which is actually a penalty if it's not in a form of praise. So it's either miscommunication or he wasn't penalized for the slide. Either way it's a bad mistake.

[shrader]

I also believe the ref may have been penalizing him for the slide, but it was announced as a penalty for going to his knees which is actually a penalty if it's not in a form of praise. So it's either miscommunication or he wasn't penalized for the slide. Either way it's a bad mistake.

 

What exactly are you arguing at this point? If the penalty was for the slide and they announced it as for "going to his knees", what exactly did he slide on? His knees.

[SwampD]

Pete Townsend would be proud. He was penalized for the slide not the prayer. I think they should penalize ANY prayer on the field. The Creator doesn't give a $#!t about football. I say let the slide go. It's fun.

[darksabre]

Pete Townsend would be proud. He was penalized for the slide not the prayer. I think they should penalize ANY prayer on the field. The Creator doesn't give a $#!t about football. I say let the slide go. It's fun.

 

If we're going to punish this shouldn't we punish any celebration after a player gets crushed? It's only fair.

[Johnny DangerFace]

 

 

Fair enough, we shall see.

 

By the way, don't let Numark find out that you're using stats to prove a point. :angel:

 

Why are you taking shots at me? I said spiller had a good game, you come out of no where to tell me my opinion is wrong. I say he had 80 sonething yards on 18 carries. You tell me I'm wrong because if you take away his good run his stats suck. That is junk stats btw. Your argument was literally "if you take away certain stats to prove my argument, stats are on my side."

 

I'm a huge stats guy, I'm educated in stats, and did statistics professionally for a short time for research, and also did statistics for a psych department back in undergraduate.

 

So please don't take random shots at me when I'm not even in a conversation, especially when you were the ###### a few nights ago, and especially something not true like stats.

 

If you want to be a complete ###### and talk about the bills, go to TBD. No place for that here

Edited September 30, 2014 by Numark