dEnnis the Menace Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 I think I'm more satisfied with EJ after that performance.
LastPommerFan Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 Passer rating is a crappy stat. There, I said it. Know who else is top-12 in passer rating? Sam Bradford, Nick Foles (granted he played great last year...but odds he repeats?) and Josh McCown. Not top-12? Cam Newton, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck, Jay Cutler, Matt Stafford, Eli Manning (and others, tired of listing). Passer rating gets inflated in two situations: the QB is truly elite and surrounded by a great supporting cast (I suppose this isn't inflated in the raw sense of the word, but still) or when a QB is in a situation where he can continually take safe, low-risk plays and focus on efficiency. Wilson is a nice player, but he's not elite--the context in which he plays allows for the latter type of inflation. If you're prepared to argue why his high passer rating is a result of him being elite rather than his team and system, feel free to do so. He's been consistent for 2 years. The guys you listed are all over the place. He is top 12 in the league.
tom webster Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 Top Talent Quarterbacks beget winning in the NFL. The way the rules are structured and enforced right now, there is literally no other relevant differentiator between annual playoff teams and also rans. The big difference between the NFL and the NHL is there are other ways to fill that need than losing. Top draft picks get traded much more often, and top talent quarterbacks do occasionally become available. Improving the rest of the team might move the bills from 6 to 9 wins. Improving the quarterback could move them to 11. I'm going to repeat the first two sentences because they are so important: Top Talent Quarterbacks beget winning in the NFL. The way the rules are structured and enforced right now, there is literally no other relevant differentiator between annual playoff teams and also rans. I keep hearing this and in not sure I disagree but the fact of the matter is what I consider the two best teams in the league(SF and Sea) both win with defense and running games supplemented with decent quarterbacking from a 2nd and 3rd round pick. Also, the last three Super Bowls were won by Eli, Flacco and Wilson, not exactly elite QB's.
LastPommerFan Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 I keep hearing this and in not sure I disagree but the fact of the matter is what I consider the two best teams in the league(SF and Sea) both win with defense and running games supplemented with decent quarterbacking from a 2nd and 3rd round pick. Also, the last three Super Bowls were won by Eli, Flacco and Wilson, not exactly elite QB's. This elite word keeps getting tossed about recklessly. You need a top 12 QB to be in the hunt year after year. I'm not sure that equates to elite. Flacco and Wilson are top 12.
TrueBlueGED Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 He's been consistent for 2 years. The guys you listed are all over the place. He is top 12 in the league. He may be top-12 in the league...but it's not because of his passer rating :nana: This elite word keeps getting tossed about recklessly. You need a top 12 QB to be in the hunt year after year. I'm not sure that equates to elite. Flacco and Wilson are top 12. If one of your criteria for being top-12 in the league is consistency, I'm not sure how you consider Flacco to be there.
Hoss Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 I just saw somebody say that the passer rating is stupid while pointing out that Nick Foles, who had one of the most flawless seasons EVER, was in the top 12 while Eli Manning, who had one of the most flawed seasons, is not. Not disagreeing with the idea, but this is not a good argument. At all.
LastPommerFan Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 He may be top-12 in the league...but it's not because of his passer rating :nana: If one of your criteria for being top-12 in the league is consistency, I'm not sure how you consider Flacco to be there. If one of your criteria is x I completely ignore criteria z, y, g, r, and 7 in favor of making my point.
Johnny DangerFace Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 Make the case for why his passer rating is inflated. I never said anything about his passer rating. But he is way overrated. He's a good example of a qb getting more credit for their teams success than they deserve. He's a solid young qb who happens to play on a team with an elite defense and elite run game. I mean for goodness sakes the team was dead last by a large amount in net passing yards a game. They don't put him in a position where he needs to win games nor run the offense. He also doesn't lose them games which is a great. He is a game manager thus far in his career and is in the ideal perfect situation for a young QB. I'm on my phone so I'm not going to get into it, and I'm sure there are 1000 stats that say he is elite. I'm just saying in my opinion and having watched a lot of sea games last year, he is not asked to do much, but does what he is asked to do very well. But he is not yet a QB that you could build your offense around like a luck/newton. And that's my criteria for elite (could build a team around them and have a pass first offense) Let's see how he is in 3-5 years when he has to lead and run the team
tom webster Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) This elite word keeps getting tossed about recklessly. You need a top 12 QB to be in the hunt year after year. I'm not sure that equates to elite. Flacco and Wilson are top 12. I'm not sure what your list may be exactly but I know at least four were drafted after the first round and two were drafted in the bottom half of the first so if you are right and EJ isn't top 12 it's not like trading away the number one pick is a death blow. And by the way, why top 12 and not top 10? Edited August 9, 2014 by tom webster
JujuFish Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 But he is not yet a QB that you could build your offense around like a luck/newton. And that's my criteria for elite (could build a team around them and have a pass first offense) Let's see how he is in 3-5 years when he has to lead and run the team I'll take Wilson all day any day over Newton.
Johnny DangerFace Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 I'll take Wilson all day any day over Newton. I'll also say newton is one of the more underrated young QBs in the league. Dudes stats are unreal for his first few seasons.
inkman Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 Not sure exactly why but I find Cam Newton as uncharasmatic as they come. What an annoying doosh.
Johnny DangerFace Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 Not sure exactly why but I find Cam Newton as uncharasmatic as they come. What an annoying doosh. It's that fake smile lol. RG3 is similar but hides it better
TrueBlueGED Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) I just saw somebody say that the passer rating is stupid while pointing out that Nick Foles, who had one of the most flawless seasons EVER, was in the top 12 while Eli Manning, who had one of the most flawed seasons, is not. Not disagreeing with the idea, but this is not a good argument. At all. Way to take it out of context. Passer rating was presented as a measure of QB quality...it's a bad one. It can accurately measure QB performance (and spare me, performance != QB quality), but it also has a high chance of leading one astray when trying to rate QBs. If one of your criteria is x I completely ignore criteria z, y, g, r, and 7 in favor of making my point. By what Criteria is Flacco good though? He had that incredible playoff run and throws a great deep ball, but his reads are slow, he's immobile, and he has mediocre accuracy on everything short to intermediate. And in fairness, you presented no criteria on Flacco, you just tossed his name out there ;) Edited August 9, 2014 by TrueBluePhD
Hoss Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 Using a single stat to judge any player in any sport is almost always a mistake, but discrediting any single stat is also often a mistake. QB rating isn't a great stat on its own, but it's a good supplement.
wjag Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 I'm stunned. The Bills actually won a preseason game.
Hoss Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 So is Vitamin B Certainly. You can't survive by getting nothing but vitamin b everyday, but a good meal and hydration really helps.
inkman Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 I'm stunned. The Bills actually won a preseason game. Historically I know their preseason record sucked but has it been that way the last 5-10 years?
LastPommerFan Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 I'm not sure what your list may be exactly but I know at least four were drafted after the first round and two were drafted in the bottom half of the first so if you are right and EJ isn't top 12 it's not like trading away the number one pick is a death blow. And by the way, why top 12 and not top 10? Not a death blow. Just makes it harder to get good. 12 teams make the playoffs.
Derrico Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 Missed the game last night. Anything at all to take from it?
inkman Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 Missed the game last night. Anything at all to take from it? I think they have lots of depth at RB,OL,DL,LB and S. QB, WR, CB, TE are still big question in my mind. All 4 RB's look good. Dixon and Brown could start for a lot of teams. Sammy has yet to show why he was drafted in his spot, not to mention why another first was traded to get him. EJ looked better. Team is still maddening in the red zone. Wasn't a big fan of Hackett last year and he's doing nothing to change my opinion. Mike Williams looks studly. I could see him getting double digit tuddy's if used correctly. Defensive line looks formidable. Wreaking havoc all night.
tom webster Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 Not a death blow. Just makes it harder to get good. 12 teams make the playoffs. But the same 12 teams don't consistently make the playoffs so by your own definition only 7 or 8 quarterbacks qualify as good enough
Derrico Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 I think they have lots of depth at RB,OL,DL,LB and S. QB, WR, CB, TE are still big question in my mind. All 4 RB's look good. Dixon and Brown could start for a lot of teams. Sammy has yet to show why he was drafted in his spot, not to mention why another first was traded to get him. EJ looked better. Team is still maddening in the red zone. Wasn't a big fan of Hackett last year and he's doing nothing to change my opinion. Mike Williams looks studly. I could see him getting double digit tuddy's if used correctly. Defensive line looks formidable. Wreaking havoc all night. Thanks. Nice to hear ej played better (not that he could be much worse than the hall of fame game).
LastPommerFan Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 But the same 12 teams don't consistently make the playoffs so by your own definition only 7 or 8 quarterbacks qualify as good enough True. The top 8 are consistently there, and the top 16 (half) are the only ones with a shot. Bottom half qbs with playoff births are few and far between. By my assessment, we have a guy with a bottom half ceiling, 17-20th at best.
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