LastPommerFan Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 I "wonder" who his source was......pffffffffffffff..... Well here it is. Straight out of the Larry Quinn 1970's playbook. For those of you that aren't familiar with the history of the city, Quinny was the right hand man for the mayor back then. You wonder why the waterfront has never been efficiently used? The Hyatt and convention center were going to be put there...until....Quinn convinced them to build it in crapola land. Just happened that a few buds owned the run down properties and not only got bought out with community funds, but there was a huge construction project to be done with taxpayer dollars.......sounding familiar? So a guy who wouldn't use his checkbook on a $60 million sports investment will suddenly have a change of heart and plug in an extra billion or so? 1) Land and facility that has been abandoned for decades and makes no sense compared to a half dozen other ideal places.....check 2) In the construction and development business where money can be made on sale, teardown, and buildup......check 3) Public funds to be used to build a $600 million..."I mean...$800 million stadium...yeah...that's the ticket...it cost $800 million"......check 4) Quinny back in the public face after his usual 3-10 year disappearance after his previous "questionable" failures....check 5) A group promising to keep the team in Buffalo, while in reality they stand to MAKE money on building the stadium with enough public funding, with a history of an owner not willing to write checks as he waits for his investment to peak, then a decade down the road sell the team for twice the price......that's for you to decide If Congel really is the partner, I'm completely down the Drane Rabbit Hole on this one. At this point it's almost like the Billionaires Club is taking out Billboards in Buffalo reading "We are going to ###### you so hard, and there is nothing you can do about it."
shrader Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 I'm still waiting to see this professional sports owner who isn't interested in money. I hear he has a cameo in the new X-Men movie.
TrueBlueGED Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 I'm still waiting to see this professional sports owner who isn't interested in money. I hear he has a cameo in the new X-Men movie. I think the issue is making terrible development decisions to make it (particularly when hundreds of millions of public dollars are utilized). My tongue in cheek comment earlier aside, I firmly believe putting the stadium in that West Seneca location would be a mistake. I couldn't possibly care less if Golisano buys it for the express purpose of flipping it in a decade...as long as the stadium location and expense makes sense for the community long term.
IKnowPhysics Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 The site Golisano is looking at is in West Seneca where the Seneca Mall used to be. I hate that location. And the fact that Golisano's partner is the Pyramid Mall Kid and owns that land likely means that they won't be flexible in considering better stadium location options.
Weave Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Forgive my ignorance here. What is wrong with the old Seneca Mall site other than it isn't downtown?
IKnowPhysics Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 (edited) Forgive my ignorance here. What is wrong with the old Seneca Mall site other than it isn't downtown? The amount of public money and/or tax breaks the developers and Bills franchise will receive over the course of construction and decades-long lifetime of a new stadium is astronomical. Western New York cannot afford to squander that sum. There MUST be some return on investment. This return must have considerable and tangible economic and financial benefit above and beyond the "improved quality of life" that a professional sports team brings to residents of the area. The stadium must be built as part, perhaps as the centerpiece, of a larger development plan that will boost the region economically. To do anything else is foolhardy and an immense waste of both public funds and trust. So, where do you build the centerpiece of your development? On top of a strip mall seven miles down the road from where the previous stadium was considered an utter failure to stimulate economic growth? Where a now-leveled shopping mall was decimated by its own parent company's decision to invest in a newer regional shopping mall nearby? That location's not exactly ground zero for the new economic engine of Buffalo. It's surrounded by residential neighborhoods with very little prospect for growth of the type of development that could be gained from a new billion-dollar-class football stadium. It's Orchard Park II. The arguments about transportation and parking space are just about complete ######. The new stadium will be an attractor (if you build it, they will come) regardless of where it's built, with the crucial, crucial, crucial difference being what kind of positive economic influence on the region the stadium can provide as part of a larger plan. I think the most benefit would come from putting the stadium downtown or as close to downtown along the waterfront as possible as part of a larger development, but that's just my opinion. The economic impact needs to be maximized, and I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen if we build a billion-dollar tombstone for Seneca Mall. Edited May 28, 2014 by IKnowPhysics
26CornerBlitz Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 The amount of public money and/or tax breaks the developers and Bills franchise will receive over the course of construction and decades-long lifetime of a new stadium is astronomical. Western New York cannot afford to squander that sum. There MUST be some return on investment. This return must be have considerable and tangible economic and financial benefit above and beyond the "improved quality of life" that a professional sports team brings to residents of the area. The stadium must be built as part, perhaps as the centerpiece, of a larger development plan that will boost the region economically. To do anything else is foolhardy and an immense waste of both public funds and trust. So, where do you build the centerpiece of your development? On top of a strip mall seven miles down the road from where the previous stadium was considered an utter failure to stimulate economic growth? Where a now-leveled shopping mall was decimated by its own parent company's decision to invest in a newer regional shopping mall nearby? That location's not exactly ground zero for the new economic engine of Buffalo. It's surrounded by residential neighborhoods with very little prospect for growth of the type of development that could be gained from a new billion-dollar-class football stadium. It's Orchard Park II. The arguments about transportation and parking space are just about complete ######. The new stadium will be an attractor (if you build it, they will come) regardless of where it's built, with the crucial, crucial, crucial difference being what kind of positive economic influence on the region the stadium can provide as part of a larger plan. I think the most benefit would come from putting the stadium downtown or as close to downtown along the waterfront as possible as part of a larger development, but that's just my opinion. The economic impact needs to be maximized, and I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen if we build a billion-dollar tombstone for Seneca Mall. Excellent Post.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Forgive my ignorance here. What is wrong with the old Seneca Mall site other than it isn't downtown? It's not about the site itself....it's the fact that if "you want to keep the Bills in Buffalo".....the taxpayers are going to be extorted into buying the guy out of a total failure, paying him to tear it up, paying him to build it up, and then in 10 years when the new agreement is up, the team leaves town anyways while they are rid of all their problems, turn a profit on the actual building of the stadium, and get a 15% capital gains hit on a $1 billion profit. You saw a bastard stepchild of this with the Sabres and the forgiving of debt on the arena. Quinn has pulled this off with the convention center, Hyatt, Canalside, who knows what with the Aud site, various real estate, etc. All of these guys partnered up have a history in this town, and a logical person should use that information and track record to read between the lines. I would support a group with Trump in it before I'd hand the keys over to this crew.
nfreeman Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 I "wonder" who his source was......pffffffffffffff..... Well here it is. Straight out of the Larry Quinn 1970's playbook. For those of you that aren't familiar with the history of the city, Quinny was the right hand man for the mayor back then. You wonder why the waterfront has never been efficiently used? The Hyatt and convention center were going to be put there...until....Quinn convinced them to build it in crapola land. Just happened that a few buds owned the run down properties and not only got bought out with community funds, but there was a huge construction project to be done with taxpayer dollars.......sounding familiar? So a guy who wouldn't use his checkbook on a $60 million sports investment will suddenly have a change of heart and plug in an extra billion or so? 1) Land and facility that has been abandoned for decades and makes no sense compared to a half dozen other ideal places.....check 2) In the construction and development business where money can be made on sale, teardown, and buildup......check 3) Public funds to be used to build a $600 million..."I mean...$800 million stadium...yeah...that's the ticket...it cost $800 million"......check 4) Quinny back in the public face after his usual 3-10 year disappearance after his previous "questionable" failures....check 5) A group promising to keep the team in Buffalo, while in reality they stand to MAKE money on building the stadium with enough public funding, with a history of an owner not willing to write checks as he waits for his investment to peak, then a decade down the road sell the team for twice the price......that's for you to decide It all sounds very plausible and, sadly, of a piece with the political boss/unionism/cronyism that has crippled WNY's economy for the last several generations. Schumer gets credit for keeping the Bills in town, publicity and WNY votes for being the government BSD on the scene, Quinn gets paid and gets to be a local BSD, Golisano flips the team in a few years and pockets a big gain, the local land developer gets 3x what his land is worth, plus a piece of the gain on flipping the team, the local unions get a fat project to work on for 3-4 years, complete with cost overruns, delays and graft, and the public -- most of whom derive zero benefit from the new stadium -- get soaked for -- how much? $300MM? $500MM? $700MM? Certainly no one will be incentivized to hold down the cost. And all at a time when NYS and WNY are in terrible fiscal shape. Predictable results: increases in property, income and sales taxes, resulting in departures of taxpayers and employers, resulting in a further deterioration of the local tax base and economy. It's a major debacle, just staring us in the face. I think the issue is making terrible development decisions to make it (particularly when hundreds of millions of public dollars are utilized). My tongue in cheek comment earlier aside, I firmly believe putting the stadium in that West Seneca location would be a mistake. I couldn't possibly care less if Golisano buys it for the express purpose of flipping it in a decade...as long as the stadium location and expense makes sense for the community long term. That is, unfortunately, the assumption that swallows the issue. There is no publicly-funded stadium that makes sense for the community long term. The amount of public money and/or tax breaks the developers and Bills franchise will receive over the course of construction and decades-long lifetime of a new stadium is astronomical. Western New York cannot afford to squander that sum. There MUST be some return on investment. This return must have considerable and tangible economic and financial benefit above and beyond the "improved quality of life" that a professional sports team brings to residents of the area. The stadium must be built as part, perhaps as the centerpiece, of a larger development plan that will boost the region economically. To do anything else is foolhardy and an immense waste of both public funds and trust. So, where do you build the centerpiece of your development? On top of a strip mall seven miles down the road from where the previous stadium was considered an utter failure to stimulate economic growth? Where a now-leveled shopping mall was decimated by its own parent company's decision to invest in a newer regional shopping mall nearby? That location's not exactly ground zero for the new economic engine of Buffalo. It's surrounded by residential neighborhoods with very little prospect for growth of the type of development that could be gained from a new billion-dollar-class football stadium. It's Orchard Park II. The arguments about transportation and parking space are just about complete ######. The new stadium will be an attractor (if you build it, they will come) regardless of where it's built, with the crucial, crucial, crucial difference being what kind of positive economic influence on the region the stadium can provide as part of a larger plan. I think the most benefit would come from putting the stadium downtown or as close to downtown along the waterfront as possible as part of a larger development, but that's just my opinion. The economic impact needs to be maximized, and I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen if we build a billion-dollar tombstone for Seneca Mall. Good post. It's not about the site itself....it's the fact that if "you want to keep the Bills in Buffalo".....the taxpayers are going to be extorted into buying the guy out of a total failure, paying him to tear it up, paying him to build it up, and then in 10 years when the new agreement is up, the team leaves town anyways while they are rid of all their problems, turn a profit on the actual building of the stadium, and get a 15% capital gains hit on a $1 billion profit. You saw a bastard stepchild of this with the Sabres and the forgiving of debt on the arena. Quinn has pulled this off with the convention center, Hyatt, Canalside, who knows what with the Aud site, various real estate, etc. All of these guys partnered up have a history in this town, and a logical person should use that information and track record to read between the lines. I would support a group with Trump in it before I'd hand the keys over to this crew. And another one. I agree 100% on Trump.
TrueBlueGED Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 It all sounds very plausible and, sadly, of a piece with the political boss/unionism/cronyism that has crippled WNY's economy for the last several generations. Schumer gets credit for keeping the Bills in town, publicity and WNY votes for being the government BSD on the scene, Quinn gets paid and gets to be a local BSD, Golisano flips the team in a few years and pockets a big gain, the local land developer gets 3x what his land is worth, plus a piece of the gain on flipping the team, the local unions get a fat project to work on for 3-4 years, complete with cost overruns, delays and graft, and the public -- most of whom derive zero benefit from the new stadium -- get soaked for -- how much? $300MM? $500MM? $700MM? Certainly no one will be incentivized to hold down the cost. And all at a time when NYS and WNY are in terrible fiscal shape. Predictable results: increases in property, income and sales taxes, resulting in departures of taxpayers and employers, resulting in a further deterioration of the local tax base and economy. It's a major debacle, just staring us in the face. That is, unfortunately, the assumption that swallows the issue. There is no publicly-funded stadium that makes sense for the community long term. Oh most definitely, the localities almost invariably lose on stadium deals--didn't mean to imply otherwise (although I see how it reads that way). What I was getting at, to paraphrase Argo, is I want the best bad idea we can come up with.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 It gives me hope that intelligent people who don't all agree very often, can see through this for what it is.
IKnowPhysics Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Excellent Post. Thank you. War Memorial Stadium, built in 1937, was used for 36 years. Rich Stadium, 1973, will have been used for 43+ years. Of course saving the future of the Bills in Buffalo is supremely important, but the community has a once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire land and build a new stadium that could easily influence the region for the next fifty years. In all likelihood, your grandchildren may be attending events at this stadium. The people who are alive today? We might only get one shot to get this right. We can't let this opportunity be pissed away like so many misjudgments and corrupt decisions that have plagued the region over the past 60 years.
Weave Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 It's not about the site itself....it's the fact that if "you want to keep the Bills in Buffalo".....the taxpayers are going to be extorted into buying the guy out of a total failure, paying him to tear it up, paying him to build it up, and then in 10 years when the new agreement is up, the team leaves town anyways while they are rid of all their problems, turn a profit on the actual building of the stadium, and get a 15% capital gains hit on a $1 billion profit. You saw a bastard stepchild of this with the Sabres and the forgiving of debt on the arena. Quinn has pulled this off with the convention center, Hyatt, Canalside, who knows what with the Aud site, various real estate, etc. All of these guys partnered up have a history in this town, and a logical person should use that information and track record to read between the lines. I would support a group with Trump in it before I'd hand the keys over to this crew. The first point you chose to type out was specifically about the location. Two others chimed in about the location. Seemed rather evident that the location was a big issue. My bad. :P
IKnowPhysics Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 We may want to spawn and move posts into a new OT - Buffalo Bills Ownership / Stadium thread. This ###### could be argued for quite a while, even this far away from TBD. It's pretty separable from regular football talk. Just sayin'.
Weave Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 So, word on the radio this PM is that Congel is a controversial fellow in Rochester and Syracuse. What's the skinny here?
LastPommerFan Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 So, word on the radio this PM is that Congel is a controversial fellow in Rochester and Syracuse. What's the skinny here? Google "Medley Center Rochester". You should get a good cross-section of the screw job he laid on us there.
inkman Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 So, word on the radio this PM is that Congel is a controversial fellow in Rochester and Syracuse. What's the skinny here? He makes Steve Donner look like Warren Buffet
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Google "Medley Center Rochester". You should get a good cross-section of the screw job he laid on us there. I had no idea about that.... This is almost too easy. People here who will call conspiracy, agree. There is public knowledge and dissatisfaction of the name. I originally said that Brandon possibly met with Golisano to drive up bidding for a group that had deep pockets but would probably leave with the team. I have never for one second felt Golisano is an honest steward who gives one iota what happens to the city or the team. This is just..... Who is out there with a black eye, that really wants to bid......that people would knee-jerk be turned off by, but could warm up to if they see the other options?
darksabre Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 He makes Steve Donner look like Warren Buffet :worthy:
Taro T Posted May 29, 2014 Report Posted May 29, 2014 If Congel & Quinn are involved, run, run quickly. There is no way possible for this to be anything but a screw job. So does this mean the end of the world is nigh? I can't recall the last time this diverse a group of posters were in agreement. Could be cats and dogs living together.
IKnowPhysics Posted May 29, 2014 Report Posted May 29, 2014 Google "Medley Center Rochester". You should get a good cross-section of the screw job he laid on us there. I did. Huh. Turns out this guy's pretty good at being a scumbag. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medley_Centre Here are pictures of that wreck of an Edmund Shitzgerald: http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2014/03/14/scott-congel-medley-centre-irondequoit/6431965/
That Aud Smell Posted May 29, 2014 Report Posted May 29, 2014 (edited) Good stuff on Congel, Seneca Mall tombstone, etc. My thanks to those with some perspective on this crew. The idea of having TG involved was underwhelming. But to hear he's likely got a Quinn-facilitated bid (I can't blame Wawrow for working his sources (or is he just the mouth piece?)), with a guy as apparently suspect as this Congel fella -- that leaves me in the Chz camp: menolikey. Was it TrueBlue who made the point (sorry, on a mobile) about how bassackwards it is to come to the table with a random suburban stadium location as part of the deal? NYS hired an expensive Calif firm to scout optimal locations -- there's no way the Seneca Mall makes the short list (assuming everything's on the up and up). Edited May 29, 2014 by That Aud Smell
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