LGR4GM Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 As I tried to relate in a previous post, it's not even about shielding my kid. I just plain and simple want no part of that scene. I find it embarrassing that our tailgate scene looks like the setting of a post-apocalyptic movie after the game. It's just........ irresponsible. I see the lots after the game and it's like a surrealistic painting depicting the 7 deadly sins., And I'm a pretty tolerant fellow. But my God man, do we really need to leave all that acreage looking like a bombed out scene, complete with bodies and fires? I understand that sentiment. I tailgate down here and we get pretty sauced with 5 hours tailgate but we always clean up our sh!t. It is interesting that the ppl who always tailgate in our area do that as well but the randoms who show up do not. Our one friend actually said "excuse me you need to clean up your trash" to this group after one tailgate. They looked at her funny for a couple of seconds but since there were about 10 guys in our group and only 4 in theirs, they complied with her request. Its about responsibility and respect. If I had kids I would not take them to a tailgate until they were older just because I understand the atmosphere.
dEnnis the Menace Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 I've been going to Bills games since I was young. It's family tradition to go spend Sundays at the Ralph. A portion of my family is there every Sunday, and we pull out the grill, smoker, or crockpots, and we cook all morning, kill at least a 30, and eat tons of food. We play catch with a football, listen to music and/or pre-game talk, and it's a great time. There's always a drunken idiot or 5 walking around that'll try to start ###### with us, but we just ignore it and move on with our tailgate. my younger cousin (she's 8 now) just started going to games this past year. She loved every game she went to. It's all what you make of it. We choose to ignore the idiots, and we pick up our mess (one of only a few that do). But we've all been going since we were 7 or 8, and if it was taken away, it would kill our experience. Sundays at the Ralph is our bonding time for those of us that live out of town. and regarding the Sabres game, we always hit up a bar for dinner and drinks before hand. We don't tailgate persay, but we do spend an hour or two beforehand at a bar with friends or family.
TrueBlueGED Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 Like I said earlier, I love it all. I completely understand why people don't, but I just thinks it's hilarious. Two games ago I watched 6 to 10 guys just beating the tar out of each other. From about 6 feet away, it was like the cartoon fight dust cloud with arms and legs popping out from time to time. A cop, walking toward it slowly, but announcing his presence, was saying that it had better break up before he got there because he really didn't want to take anyone to jail today. It brook up and they all scattered. I'm sorry, that's just funny and I'm glad I saw it. The bolded really made me laugh, though. This is where I'm at. I enjoy going to Bills games more than Sabres games precisely because of the tailgating and the atmosphere. I also believe (perhaps wrongly) that the tailgating is a major contributor to the atmosphere at Bills games, and if the same thing happened at Sabres games, the atmosphere in the F'nC would be much better. I totally get that it's not for everyone, or how some of the stuff that happens can be judged to be over the top (especially if you want to bring younger children to a game). But personally, I love it.
Claude_Verret Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 PNC arena here in Raleigh is very conducive to tailgating given its proximity to Carter Finley (NC State) stadium. In fact I can't remember the last hockey game I went to here whenI didn't tailgate at least a little bit before going in. All raping and pillaging jokes aside, I highly recommend a trip down here to tailgate and take in a Canes/Sabres game sometime. Next year these games are shaping up to be epic tank battles.
That Aud Smell Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 Good debate going on re: tailgating and the hopes for a new stadium. I did not grow up with, or otherwise attach myself to, the pre-game tailgating scene at Bills games. There are people I know and respect for whom that ritual - ~8 times a year - is really treasured and actually somewhat 'sacred.' I feel like that should be respected. OTOH, I don't go to games at the stadium anymore. Nope. No thanks. Maybe it's just been bad luck, but I tried sitting in a few different spots in the late 90s and early 00s, and had a sequence of (i) a pass-out drunk weighing well in excess of 300# fall on someone in my group (this was after he generally menaced our section), (ii) having a senior citizen in our group trampled underfoot by a group of Canadian hooligans, as we made our way toward the stadium (fwiw, there was no ill will - they were just getting out of hand, eh?), (iii) full-blown donnybrook 4 rows up from where we were sitting (it is ALWAYS in the rows up from you, innit?). That sort of behavior at the stadium is causally tied to the 'atmosphere' and 'tradition' that give a pass to over-consuming. If the Bills are going to get a new stadium, and make it work, they are going to need a lot more than average Joes and Janes getting to a parking lot by 10:00 a.m. They are going to need a ton of corporate-level money to buy the PSLs, and then that same money will need to buy expensive seat tickets on top of those PSLs. I think it's right to conclude that that money is not going to flow the way it should, or the way it might, if the Bills home stadium continues to be perceived as the place where the ordinary people of WNY and southern Ontario (and I am being charitable with 'ordinary people' (the upper crust types would use other terms, I think)) go to let their freak flags fly, get their freak on, etc. The focus for a new stadium group should be almost singular in its focus: Courting and securing the financial commitments of those controlling the wealth of area corporations, businesses, and high net worth individuals. And, sure, there can follow a great hue and cry about how that sort of focus would be myopic, idiotic, foolish, against everything that is good and holy, etc. But I can't see how anyone can look at this situation objectively -- and see the NFL for what it is and what it wants to become -- and fail to understand that the league is not really interested in the good families and friends who have been gathering in Lot 2, lo, these last 30 years. The NFL must pay lip service to their appreciation for those fans, but, c'mon, that's not who they're interested in, those are not the people to whom the NFL is catering. The NFL wants to grow its wealth and power, and the most efficient and direct path toward that goal is to shake loose massive gobs of money from entities that have 6-, 7-, and 8-figure sums to give away -- first from state and local governments (taxpayers) so as to finance billion dollar playgrounds in which NFL teams will play 8 regular season games a year, and second from the wealthiest of those taxpayers, who that time around present as high-rolling consumers of entertainment. Hoo. Sorry for that. I didn't know that was all going to spill out.
IKnowPhysics Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 I grew up with Bills, Sabres, Bisons. Went to UB. Went to Wisconsin. Caught a couple Padres games. Caught a couple Brewers games. All of these places, you could tailgate if you wanted (and for Bills, Badgers, Padres, and Brewers, tailgating was huge). Tailgating is a riotously fun time. I went to a Dodger game and was asked for identification and put on a list because I cracked open a PBR in the parking lot. No tailgating allowed, strictly enforced. No tailgating sucks dick. Period.
That Aud Smell Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 sucks dick. Period. i wanna give a shout-out to the idiosyncratic profanity filter. i also want to indulge my inner 16 year-old and observe that the two sentences quoted above are, in an ideal world, inter-related.
IKnowPhysics Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 i wanna give a shout-out to the idiosyncratic profanity filter. Huh. How about that.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 When the Bills are good.... Game/Tailgating 70/30 When bad...30/70 I have planned on walking into late season games over the past few years and just stayed back and ate/drank/talked with friends. I suggest finding private lots if you want to beat traffic and avoid hooligans. I park at a friend's house, and every game is buddies just sharing food/booze. A regular 15 or so outside cars park there every game and it becomes a pot luck. If you are a stranger, you are always welcome to a beer or to go inside the house to use an actual bathroom. It is sad in a way that Sunday becomes a dedicated ritual, but in the same sense...it is the gospel in action. I understand not wanting to bring kids to the big lots or random seats, but one of the perks of being a season ticket holder is scouting out specific sections and rows where things are responsible. The crew around me is as good as it gets and anyone looking for trouble gets put in their place. If you just go to 1 game a year and sit upper deck on the 10 yard line or lower end zone....yeah....not the most pleasant atmosphere. I couldn't care less about a Sabres game when they are bad. No tailgating....people bitch about driving to Orchard Park....how about driving into downtown when parking is filled with monthlies unless you arrive an hour or less before the game? The few bars in walking distance are overcrowded and the arena itself has the buzz of a dead junebug. When they are good and the weather is ok, then you can make your own fun. Also, I believe the average season ticket price and cheapest seat is the same for the Bills as the Sabres. You only need to commit to 8 instead of 42 however.
Eleven Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 I couldn't care less about a Sabres game when they are bad. No tailgating....people bitch about driving to Orchard Park....how about driving into downtown when parking is filled with monthlies unless you arrive an hour or less before the game? The few bars in walking distance are overcrowded and the arena itself has the buzz of a dead junebug. When they are good and the weather is ok, then you can make your own fun. Also, I believe the average season ticket price and cheapest seat is the same for the Bills as the Sabres. You only need to commit to 8 instead of 42 however. I guess it depends on where you live and/or work. For Sabres games, I'm already downtown. Bills games mean a Herculean effort.
TrueBlueGED Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Good debate going on re: tailgating and the hopes for a new stadium. I did not grow up with, or otherwise attach myself to, the pre-game tailgating scene at Bills games. There are people I know and respect for whom that ritual - ~8 times a year - is really treasured and actually somewhat 'sacred.' I feel like that should be respected. OTOH, I don't go to games at the stadium anymore. Nope. No thanks. Maybe it's just been bad luck, but I tried sitting in a few different spots in the late 90s and early 00s, and had a sequence of (i) a pass-out drunk weighing well in excess of 300# fall on someone in my group (this was after he generally menaced our section), (ii) having a senior citizen in our group trampled underfoot by a group of Canadian hooligans, as we made our way toward the stadium (fwiw, there was no ill will - they were just getting out of hand, eh?), (iii) full-blown donnybrook 4 rows up from where we were sitting (it is ALWAYS in the rows up from you, innit?). That sort of behavior at the stadium is causally tied to the 'atmosphere' and 'tradition' that give a pass to over-consuming. If the Bills are going to get a new stadium, and make it work, they are going to need a lot more than average Joes and Janes getting to a parking lot by 10:00 a.m. They are going to need a ton of corporate-level money to buy the PSLs, and then that same money will need to buy expensive seat tickets on top of those PSLs. I think it's right to conclude that that money is not going to flow the way it should, or the way it might, if the Bills home stadium continues to be perceived as the place where the ordinary people of WNY and southern Ontario (and I am being charitable with 'ordinary people' (the upper crust types would use other terms, I think)) go to let their freak flags fly, get their freak on, etc. The focus for a new stadium group should be almost singular in its focus: Courting and securing the financial commitments of those controlling the wealth of area corporations, businesses, and high net worth individuals. And, sure, there can follow a great hue and cry about how that sort of focus would be myopic, idiotic, foolish, against everything that is good and holy, etc. But I can't see how anyone can look at this situation objectively -- and see the NFL for what it is and what it wants to become -- and fail to understand that the league is not really interested in the good families and friends who have been gathering in Lot 2, lo, these last 30 years. The NFL must pay lip service to their appreciation for those fans, but, c'mon, that's not who they're interested in, those are not the people to whom the NFL is catering. The NFL wants to grow its wealth and power, and the most efficient and direct path toward that goal is to shake loose massive gobs of money from entities that have 6-, 7-, and 8-figure sums to give away -- first from state and local governments (taxpayers) so as to finance billion dollar playgrounds in which NFL teams will play 8 regular season games a year, and second from the wealthiest of those taxpayers, who that time around present as high-rolling consumers of entertainment. Hoo. Sorry for that. I didn't know that was all going to spill out. I think you are exactly spot-on with this (minus the "should" thing...I'm painfully aware of the reality, but that's not how it should be dammit!). This is also precisely why I don't see the economics working out, particularly if they go for the palace of a stadium route rather than an adequate for new stadiums route. We're not Manhattan, we don't have the corporate or upper income base to pay for the PSLs that cover the NFL's G4 loan program. So there's really only 3 outs here: we get a benevolent owner willing to front a higher percentage of the money than other owners have (yea, right); we attract enough of this base of customers from Toronto (doubt it); or the state/county/city pick up a larger share of the tab. I think option #3 is most likely, and I abhor that possibility with every bone in my body. I love the Bills and football is my favorite sport, but there is a price where I conclude it just isn't worth it. When the Bills are good.... Game/Tailgating 70/30 When bad...30/70 I have planned on walking into late season games over the past few years and just stayed back and ate/drank/talked with friends. I suggest finding private lots if you want to beat traffic and avoid hooligans. I park at a friend's house, and every game is buddies just sharing food/booze. A regular 15 or so outside cars park there every game and it becomes a pot luck. If you are a stranger, you are always welcome to a beer or to go inside the house to use an actual bathroom. It is sad in a way that Sunday becomes a dedicated ritual, but in the same sense...it is the gospel in action. I understand not wanting to bring kids to the big lots or random seats, but one of the perks of being a season ticket holder is scouting out specific sections and rows where things are responsible. The crew around me is as good as it gets and anyone looking for trouble gets put in their place. If you just go to 1 game a year and sit upper deck on the 10 yard line or lower end zone....yeah....not the most pleasant atmosphere. I couldn't care less about a Sabres game when they are bad. No tailgating....people bitch about driving to Orchard Park....how about driving into downtown when parking is filled with monthlies unless you arrive an hour or less before the game? The few bars in walking distance are overcrowded and the arena itself has the buzz of a dead junebug. When they are good and the weather is ok, then you can make your own fun. Also, I believe the average season ticket price and cheapest seat is the same for the Bills as the Sabres. You only need to commit to 8 instead of 42 however. Preach on! When I had seasons, we'd park in a private lot on California and tailgate there for awhile, then meet up with some of our friends who were always in the stadium lot. We'd generally only be in the stadium lot for about an hour, and while we saw some more "stuff" there, our friends had carved out a section of the lot with long-timers and it was great. I guess it depends on where you live and/or work. For Sabres games, I'm already downtown. Bills games mean a Herculean effort. Absolutely. While I wouldn't say it's a herculean effort to get to a Sabres game...talking about getting in/out and food before/after is a much greater hassle than going to a Bills game.
That Aud Smell Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 I think you are exactly spot-on with this (minus the "should" thing...I'm painfully aware of the reality, but that's not how it should be dammit!). This is also precisely why I don't see the economics working out, particularly if they go for the palace of a stadium route rather than an adequate for new stadiums route. We're not Manhattan, we don't have the corporate or upper income base to pay for the PSLs that cover the NFL's G4 loan program. So there's really only 3 outs here: we get a benevolent owner willing to front a higher percentage of the money than other owners have (yea, right); we attract enough of this base of customers from Toronto (doubt it); or the state/county/city pick up a larger share of the tab. I think option #3 is most likely, and I abhor that possibility with every bone in my body. I love the Bills and football is my favorite sport, but there is a price where I conclude it just isn't worth it. Thanks. Like you, I dislike that I wanted/needed to use 'should' there, but that word did seem to acknowledge an ugly reality. My concern is maybe even less that the stadium gets built (I think it's option 3 all the way), and more what the PSL-buying and suite-buying public will do. Actually, maybe I'm being naive. Maybe the stadium doesn't even get built unless/until the requisite number of $$$ is committed for PSLs, suites, etc. Not unlike what happened back in the late 90s when the Magic Flutie got credit for drumming up the support needed to secure the team's immediate future. (Remember THAT? Now let's imagine a financial challenge that is exponentially larger than that one.)
LastPommerFan Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Not all tailgates have to become complete ###### shows. A little more enforcement of public intoxication laws, and most of the tailgate objections fall by the wayside. It would be nice to be able to take my kids to a game.
Weave Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Not all tailgates have to become complete ###### shows. A little more enforcement of public intoxication laws, and most of the tailgate objections fall by the wayside. It would be nice to be able to take my kids to a game. It blew me away that there wasn't more enforcement after that fan was killed by a flying beer bottle in the 90's.
darksabre Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 It blew me away that there wasn't more enforcement after that fan was killed by a flying beer bottle in the 90's. When you think about it, Bills games are really a microcosm of society on the whole.
X. Benedict Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 When you think about it, Bills games are really a microcosm of society on the whole. When 40% of it is drunk. I suppose so.
Hoss Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Glad to see Sammy Watkins officially signed. Love the new rookie wage scale that helps these things get done quickly.
26CornerBlitz Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 @john_wawrow AP Sources: Golisano expresses plans to buy Bills and partner with Scott Congel. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-sources-golisano-expresses-plans-buy-bills …
shrader Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 @john_wawrow AP Sources: Golisano expresses plans to buy Bills and partner with Scott Congel. http://bigstory.ap.o...ans-buy-bills … We need a little more detail on the specifics of this land for the stadium that is "south of Buffalo".
LastPommerFan Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 @john_wawrow AP Sources: Golisano expresses plans to buy Bills and partner with Scott Congel. http://bigstory.ap.o...ans-buy-bills … Scott Congel. Wow.
That Aud Smell Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 @john_wawrow AP Sources: Golisano expresses plans to buy Bills and partner with Scott Congel. http://bigstory.ap.o...ans-buy-bills … Good job, Wawrow. Interesting to see Congel/Pyramid's name come up. Their pitch contemplates a new stadium built south of Buffalo. Something about that Niagara Falls talk seemed to make sense to me.
Hoss Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 The site Golisano is looking at is in West Seneca where the Seneca Mall used to be.
shrader Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Not that it changes things at all, but I am curious about what will become of the land where the Ralph is. That's going to be one massive hole of nothing when the day finally does come. More strip malls probably?
TrueBlueGED Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 The site Golisano is looking at is in West Seneca where the Seneca Mall used to be. That would make going to games all kinds of convenient for me! Not that I expect to still be in the area when it's eventually built.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Good job, Wawrow. Interesting to see Congel/Pyramid's name come up. Their pitch contemplates a new stadium built south of Buffalo. Something about that Niagara Falls talk seemed to make sense to me. I "wonder" who his source was......pffffffffffffff..... Well here it is. Straight out of the Larry Quinn 1970's playbook. For those of you that aren't familiar with the history of the city, Quinny was the right hand man for the mayor back then. You wonder why the waterfront has never been efficiently used? The Hyatt and convention center were going to be put there...until....Quinn convinced them to build it in crapola land. Just happened that a few buds owned the run down properties and not only got bought out with community funds, but there was a huge construction project to be done with taxpayer dollars.......sounding familiar? So a guy who wouldn't use his checkbook on a $60 million sports investment will suddenly have a change of heart and plug in an extra billion or so? 1) Land and facility that has been abandoned for decades and makes no sense compared to a half dozen other ideal places.....check 2) In the construction and development business where money can be made on sale, teardown, and buildup......check 3) Public funds to be used to build a $600 million..."I mean...$800 million stadium...yeah...that's the ticket...it cost $800 million"......check 4) Quinny back in the public face after his usual 3-10 year disappearance after his previous "questionable" failures....check 5) A group promising to keep the team in Buffalo, while in reality they stand to MAKE money on building the stadium with enough public funding, with a history of an owner not willing to write checks as he waits for his investment to peak, then a decade down the road sell the team for twice the price......that's for you to decide
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