Samson's Flow Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 The argument is that they all make mistakes or they aren't trying. He's been the GM two years and in my opinion the organization is better for it. Your biggest problem is that you continue to state your opinion as fact. While the prevailing opinion was that EJ wasn't a first round talent, there were those that thought it was a risky but good pick. It's not like he picked him over Luck or Newton. As you said, he has proven he's not afraid to take risks. I think he has earned the right to finish the job and I'm glad that for now he is staying. Agreed tw. I think that the Manuel pick was more a product of bad timing, i.e. needing a QB in a bad QB draft, with Nix on the outs looking for a "franchise QB" before he leaves. If Whaley had not picked any QB in that draft, he would have been lambasted for ignoring the biggest position of need. It's entirely possible he didn't love any of the QBs in that draft class. Looking at all the QBs from that draft class, I would say that Manuel was at least the best choice out of them all.
tom webster Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 I also agree that the trade probably could have been made for our 2014 1st and 2nd, but we can't say for sure. We can only judge based on what it actually took to make the deal, otherwise we could speculate that he should have held out for a trade of the #1 and Craig Urbik. Who knows. I won't really care in a few years, since success in sports is mostly about who has the most elite, matchup winning players. Our Defense is great because we have matchup winning players all over our d-line. Watkins looks like a matchup winning WR for years to come. Opponents have to double him, leading to one-on-ones with Woods, etc. Keep in mind that Nix was quoted the season prior that he will acquire a franchise quarterback as part of his legacy as Bills GM. I think that Manuel was the last reminants of the Nix era. But without concrete factual proof, that is a debate that could go on for ages with no resolution. Some can be sure because they read it on the internet and all the experts said it.
Samson's Flow Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Some can be sure because they read it on the internet and all the experts said it. It's the same reason I stay away from Wal-Mart. I saw on the internet that the store was full of scary looking and poorly dressed people.
K-9 Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Keep in mind that Nix was quoted the season prior that he will acquire a franchise quarterback as part of his legacy as Bills GM. I think that Manuel was the last reminants of the Nix era. But without concrete factual proof, that is a debate that could go on for ages with no resolution. Buddy always talked about that "10-15 year guy" even going back to his days with Butler and the boys. And he would have taken Cam Newton and he realized we were in a dire situation at the position as well. But it was a consensus pick all the way. I give Whaley a TON of credit for doing the totally UN Buddy thing of trading down and parlaying that #8 pick into their highest rated QB and Kiko Alonso. If Buddy were in the Kirk chair, I seriously doubt he trades down. All GMs swing and miss. All of them. But not all of them swing for the fences. I'm glad Whaley has the courage of his conviction in that regard. On a final note, I'll just say that if Pegs really had any previous chats with Cowher, then any concerns he had of Whaley moving forward were erased. GO BILLS!!!
TrueBlueGED Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Even if the trade could have been done for the 2014 2nd, that's the same value as the 2015 first for all intents and purposes if you believe in the "a pick this year equals a round earlier next year" valuation. So whatever. Jerry West once said in player evaluation, if you're hitting over 50% you're doing a good job. In other words everyone misses, just don't miss more than you hit. I think Whaley has more hits than misses with his moves. I'm not married to the guy, but I don't think his job to this point warrants the hate it seems to be getting.
tom webster Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Even if the trade could have been done for the 2014 2nd, that's the same value as the 2015 first for all intents and purposes if you believe in the "a pick this year equals a round earlier next year" valuation. So whatever. Jerry West once said in player evaluation, if you're hitting over 50% you're doing a good job. In other words everyone misses, just don't miss more than you hit. I think Whaley has more hits than misses with his moves. I'm not married to the guy, but I don't think his job to this point warrants the hate it seems to be getting. I agree and I'm not just saying that because I need to improve my percentage of approvals Edited January 2, 2015 by tom webster
Samson's Flow Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Even if the trade could have been done for the 2014 2nd, that's the same value as the 2015 first for all intents and purposes if you believe in the "a pick this year equals a round earlier next year" valuation. So whatever. Jerry West once said in player evaluation, if you're hitting over 50% you're doing a good job. In other words everyone misses, just don't miss more than you hit. I think Whaley has more hits than misses with his moves. I'm not married to the guy, but I don't think his job to this point warrants the hate it seems to be getting. I think Whaley gets the criticism because his big misses have been the higher profile picks. Public perception has Manuel and Kuondijo (sp?) as misses. I totally agree that 50% hit rate is highly successful. The metric I always use is adding two starters per draft class is a success. 2013 - Kiko and Woods 2014 - Watkins, Brown and Henderson
SwampD Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Why do I have this weird feeling that in ten years, after bottom 5 finishes by both teams the entire time, then doubling his money by selling both teams, Pegula is going to approach the podium in a closed circuit exit press conference, extend two middle fingers and exclaim, "So long, Suckers!!!! I've actually been a Steelers and Penguins fan the whole time!!! Eat it, #itches!!!"
Eleven Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Some good news among the gloom: Dareus and M. Williams were named to the AP All-Pro team.
Stoner Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Why do I have this weird feeling that in ten years, after bottom 5 finishes by both teams the entire time, then doubling his money by selling both teams, Pegula is going to approach the podium in a closed circuit exit press conference, extend two middle fingers and exclaim, "So long, Suckers!!!! I've actually been a Steelers and Penguins fan the whole time!!! Eat it, #itches!!!" Where's the cigarette emoticon?
K-9 Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Some good news among the gloom: Dareus and M. Williams were named to the AP All-Pro team. Well deserved by both players. Nice to see them get this kind of recognition. I'm not seeing the gloom, I guess. While I would have given Marrone a third year, it's not like we lost Bill Walsh. Marrone doesn't strike me as a football savant and if we keep our defense intact, I don't think we'll miss a beat moving forward. I look for Whaley to swing for the fences on his coaching hire, too. GO BILLS!!!
TrueBlueGED Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Tim Graham reporting Brandon and Overdorf will be joining Whaley on the interviews as advisors. Hashtags. Lots and lots of hashtags. Edit: apparently Overdorf won't be there but Brandon will. Fewer hashtags, but still hashtags. Edited January 2, 2015 by TrueBluePhD
Taro T Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Well deserved by both players. Nice to see them get this kind of recognition. I'm not seeing the gloom, I guess. While I would have given Marrone a third year, it's not like we lost Bill Walsh. Marrone doesn't strike me as a football savant and if we keep our defense intact, I don't think we'll miss a beat moving forward. I look for Whaley to swing for the fences on his coaching hire, too. GO BILLS!!! Good posts in this discussion. I expect when all is said and done, Marrone will end up considered a good, but not great, coach. It stinks that it wasn't the Bills' choice as to his staying or going; but this opens the Bills up to the possibility of landing a great one. (Not that they necessarily will land a great one, but it's possible. As long as St. Doug was here, it wasn't very likely.) My biggest frustration w/ the way Marrone left is the only 2 people w/ the Bills w/ anything to tangibly gain by starting Orton in NE have both bailed on the Bills. The team would be further ahead, IMHO, had EJ gotten the nod. (Though it does feel good to finally have a W in Razorblade Stadium, and that wasn't a given going w/ EJ. Though a loss in that game behind EJ would have increased the probability that the 'EJ will never get it' crowd is correct and the immediacy of needing a different QB would be heightened.) Tim Graham reporting Brandon and Overdorf will be joining Whaley on the interviews as advisors. Hashtags. Lots and lots of hashtags. Reeeeeaaaaaly hope TG has his head up his bippy on that one, though it sounds correct.
TrueBlueGED Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Reeeeeaaaaaly hope TG has his head up his bippy on that one, though it sounds correct. Just edited my post. Apparently Brandon will be, but Overdorf won't be. So looks like it's Whaley, Brandon and Pegula.
Taro T Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Just edited my post. Apparently Brandon will be, but Overdorf won't be. So looks like it's Whaley, Brandon and Pegula. That makes it better, but I'd really like to see the GM have a trusted football guy in the room w/ him rather than 2 non-football guys in there. Though I don't want Nix in the room, he at least knows a bit about the game and would have more useful input than the other 2.
Eleven Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Tim Graham reporting Brandon and Overdorf will be joining Whaley on the interviews as advisors. Hashtags. Lots and lots of hashtags. Edit: apparently Overdorf won't be there but Brandon will. Fewer hashtags, but still hashtags. Oh, FFS. Enough with Brandon's involvement in this stuff already. Unless how the coach looks on the front of the media guide is some big concern or something.
tom webster Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Oh, FFS. Enough with Brandon's involvement in this stuff already. Unless how the coach looks on the front of the media guide is some big concern or something. The CEO/ owners and the President are sitting in on the interviews for the organizations biggest hire, is that really unusual? Edited January 2, 2015 by tom webster
TrueBlueGED Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 The CEO/ owners and the President are sitting in on the interviews for the organizations biggest hire, is that really unusual? In general, of course not. I suppose it depends on the level of his involvement in the interview. I just don't want him involved in football decisions in any meaningful way, as I remember his tenure as GM to be quite the mess for the team on the field.
Hoss Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 I agree and I'm not just saying that because I need to improve my percentage of approvals This post alone brought you all the way up to 0.0018%!! Congrats Tom! I'm just messing. Do you. :beer: The only chair I want Brandon sitting in is on a plane to Malaysia. Disappear, please.
Hoss Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) I'm getting continually more confused by the process. Whaley is leading the charge in interviews but the coach that is hired will answer directly to Pegula? Why is that? What does Pegula know? It'll probably be tough for me to be upset with the hire at this point because all of these candidates are just about equals in my mind. There aren't any elite-type candidates out there at the pro ranks and it doesn't appear there's any elite interest coming from college coaches. On the idea that somebody like Gase is a product of Manning and Reich is a product of Rivers: that's how it works. You don't find hot coaching candidates from ###### situations. Nobody is begging to hire the Falcons defensive coordinator. The coordinators that get the most out of top players are the guys that will be hired. I won't hate Gase. I will learn to accept Reich. I will drink the cool aid as long as it's not Rex Ryan (just doesn't make any sense for this team right now despite my thoughts that he's a good coach). My rambles about the candidates we've heard so far: Gase - Manning obviously helps big time here, but he's been touted by some big names. Nick Saban and Peyton Manning have endorsed him publicly. He moved up quickly and that's likely a mixture of hard work, connections and coaching ability. His adjustments of the Denver offense towards the middle/end of this season was very good. He got the running game more involved and continued to produce when Manning's arm slowed down. He's getting old and those adjustments were huge. Bevell - He's always had an elite running back to run his offense. However, when it came to Brett Favre joining the Vikings with Bevell as the OC he got the most out of a guy many thought was washed up. He was mediocre in NY but had one of his best seasons ever under Bevell in 2010. That makes me believe that he isn't just a guy that relies on Peterson/Lynch for success. His work with Wilson should be commended. Reich - Rivers looked like an MVP candidate until injuries came up for the San Diego offense. Were the injuries the bigger problem down the road or did Reich/McCoy just not adjust properly? Speaking of McCoy -- who is calling the shots? Reich is probably a year or two premature, but the PR move is there to be had. If it works you've got a guy that's still young enough to be around for a decade plus. McDaniels - Meh. He was brutal and tough to deal with in Denver. He forced the Tebow pick. He's always worked when under the protective hoodie in New England. He's yet to show he can do anything without Brady or Belichick. Quin - Defensive-minded coaches aren't preferred. However, Quin may be the lone exception. He's had success in college and the pros and managed the minds on a loud Seattle defense. This shows me that he can be a leader of men. He'd need to bring in somebody to oversee the offense and take care of everything on that side of the ball. This would mean another change for a defense that needs some stability, though. Not an ideal situation. So far I'm not really blown away by anybody. Edited January 2, 2015 by Tank
tom webster Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 In general, of course not. I suppose it depends on the level of his involvement in the interview. I just don't want him involved in football decisions in any meaningful way, as I remember his tenure as GM to be quite the mess for the team on the field. I agree completely but I think it's the new reality that these franchises are run like large corporations and some of the decisions involve millions of dollars. I've interviewed for positions worth a lot less then seven figures that the President of the company sat in on. Like you said, I don't want Brandon or even Pegula deciding who the QB will be or whether to go for it on fourth and one but to believe they won't be part of the decision on who they will hire for the second or third most important person in the organization is naïve.
Jsixspd Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 Let's see; I've seen some state that Brandon should be spared the ax because he's now just a little ole innocent marketing guy, and no need to can him for past misdeeds. miscues and mistakes. And yet here he is - involved in the interview process..... sounds like a bit more than just a 'marketer' to me.
Stoner Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 Let's see; I've seen some state that Brandon should be spared the ax because he's now just a little ole innocent marketing guy, and no need to can him for past misdeeds. miscues and mistakes. And yet here he is - involved in the interview process..... sounds like a bit more than just a 'marketer' to me. Yeah, and he's the guy who was given operational control of the franchise after Ralph's health went downhill. I don't see him going back to fridge magnet duty (tip of the hat to DeLuca). So you have Brandon, the Pegulas and maybe some football overlord. Poor Whaley. He's about as toothless as you can get.
Jsixspd Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 Yeah, and he's the guy who was given operational control of the franchise after Ralph's health went downhill. I don't see him going back to fridge magnet duty (tip of the hat to DeLuca). So you have Brandon, the Pegulas and maybe some football overlord. Poor Whaley. He's about as toothless as you can get. Much of the responsibility for the sorry state of affairs at One Bills Drive, the Bills offense, etc, can be placed on the shoulders of Russ Brandon, and his actions/inactions during his tenure. I honestly think Pegula extends the Bills' failure chain by involving Brandon in decisions that are outside his expertise. He should have never been promoted beyond the marketing department. Pegula appears to be making the same mistake he made with Regier, only this time with Brandon. The best course of action would be to release all the Wilson era holdovers, and start with a clean sheet of paper.
tom webster Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 Much of the responsibility for the sorry state of affairs at One Bills Drive, the Bills offense, etc, can be placed on the shoulders of Russ Brandon, and his actions/inactions during his tenure. I honestly think Pegula extends the Bills' failure chain by involving Brandon in decisions that are outside his expertise. He should have never been promoted beyond the marketing department. Pegula appears to be making the same mistake he made with Regier, only this time with Brandon. The best course of action would be to release all the Wilson era holdovers, and start with a clean sheet of paper. Yeah cause why would you want to keep the guy who put the team on solid financial footing, helped orchestrate the sale of the team that kept the Bills in Buffalo and helped reorganize the football department to stick around?
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