Johnny DangerFace Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 So you can show me where Kelly had a better statistical season than Orton. Stick to statistical comparisons because that is the point. 1991?
JJFIVEOH Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 "Imagine a world in which we are all enlightened by objective truths rather than offended by them." - Neil deGrasse Tyson Your statistical comparison was fundamentally flawed because it ignored context. I apologize for the snark in my post, but I do not apologize for pointing out the glaring problem with your comparison. If you want to misdirect the issue to my tone, that's certainly your prerogative, but I'd recommend looking beyond that to the content of the post. I'm not offended by your viewpoints (you call them truths), I'm over your haughty attitude. If you want to call it misdirecting, be my guest. The reality of it all, I prefer to discuss like an adult, with adults. It's a big reason why I no longer converse with two or three others on this forum. If your condescension forces you to tell people to ignore the snark and only concentrate on the issue then there really is no point in continuing the conversation.
inkman Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 I'm not offended by your viewpoints (you call them truths), I'm over your haughty attitude. If you want to call it misdirecting, be my guest. The reality of it all, I prefer to discuss like an adult, with adults. It's a big reason why I no longer converse with two or three others on this forum. If your condescension forces you to tell people to ignore the snark and only concentrate on the issue then there really is no point in continuing the conversation. I hate to butt in but this PP measuring contest is detracting from the original point, your understanding of statistics is fundamentally flawed.
K-9 Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 1991? That was a terrific year to be sure. That 8 yards per attempt is very telling. The idea that Orton, because he compares "statistically", had as good a year as Kelly, is ridiculous. No sane observer of the game would suggest Orton has been as effective a QB, no matter what the numbers say. Case in point: completion %. Orton may have completed a higher percentage, but don't tell me he is an accurate QB. Accurate QBs have consistent "ball placement" that allows receivers to make a play rather than just make a catch. How about keeping a play alive? Orton can't extend plays to save his life; Kelly knew how to move around in the pocket WITH HIS EYES DOWN FIELD to extend a play. There is simply no comparison to be made on any rational level. There's a difference between passing and quarterbacking. GO BILLS!!!
WildCard Posted December 28, 2014 Author Report Posted December 28, 2014 What a throw by Stafford right there.
JJFIVEOH Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 I hate to butt in but this PP measuring contest is detracting from the original point, your understanding of statistics is fundamentally flawed. That was a terrific year to be sure. That 8 yards per attempt is very telling. The idea that Orton, because he compares "statistically", had as good a year as Kelly, is ridiculous. No sane observer of the game would suggest Orton has been as effective a QB, no matter what the numbers say. Case in point: completion %. Orton may have completed a higher percentage, but don't tell me he is an accurate QB. Accurate QBs have consistent "ball placement" that allows receivers to make a play rather than just make a catch. How about keeping a play alive? Orton can't extend plays to save his life; Kelly knew how to move around in the pocket WITH HIS EYES DOWN FIELD to extend a play. There is simply no comparison to be made on any rational level. There's a difference between passing and quarterbacking. GO BILLS!!! Fine, take Jim Kelly out of the equation. Can you point out to me which QB the Bills have had in the last 12 years that can stand up to Orton's 2014 passing stats?
qwksndmonster Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 Fine, take Jim Kelly out of the equation. Can you point out to me which QB the Bills have had in the last 12 years that can stand up to Orton's 2014 passing stats? Fitz was better than Orton, even with all the INTs.
WildCard Posted December 28, 2014 Author Report Posted December 28, 2014 I'm thinking nothing will change across the board for coaching unless somebody gets hired away. I think Brandon, Overdorf and Whaley are the only ones with any shot at getting canned. I think, at the very least, let's get Brandon, Overdorf and Berchtold out of there. So let's state our ideas now: who do you let go of? Fire? Sign? I think that the week one starter at QB has to be somebody that isn't on this roster. There's options. Pick one. I think Hackett SHOULD go but won't. Other than that I do think Marrone earned another year despite his extreme stupidity at times. I think Schwartz earned it for him, but he's the head coach of a 9-7 team nonetheless. Brandon, Overdorf and Berchtold can leave. Bring in their replacements of guys/girls NOT connected to this franchise.: Fire them all Give Mike Iupati the Mario Williams treatment. He's an elite guard and we need one: Agreed. This would save our first pick too so we can take a shot at a QB or maybe a RB Draft a QB at some point. Hundley, Petty and Mannion are guys I like. Hundley early, Petty in the middle and Mannion at the tail end. Draft another guard, TE and depth all over. Address the punter position.:, I thought Schmidt did a pretty good job this year. He's not consistent, but if he gets that down he should be set. I'd bring in outside competition for camp though. Marrone's a big fan of that If Hughes really wants $10M then let him walk. If he's looking between $8-9M keep him. What's the difference $1 million makes? Cap? Once all this business it taken care of spend all your attention on extending Dareus and Gilmore. Gonna need Mario Williams to restructure too. Dareus wil get a hefty salary, and I'd love to extend Gilmore long term. The less you hear about a DB, the better they're usually playing. That and he's a big guy who likes to hit Other than that, I'd add in that we let Spiller walk, and keep Whaley on, at least for the upcoming season. Keep EJ at back-up, and gauge his progress in camp and the preseason. I'm interested in seeing if his "progress" I keep hearing about is really capable of being displayed on the field rather than it being him just observing things. Fitz was better than Orton, even with all the INTs. Really?
inkman Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 Fine, take Jim Kelly out of the equation. Can you point out to me which QB the Bills have had in the last 12 years that can stand up to Orton's 2014 passing stats? You just can't compare passing in today's NFL to 1994. The league has ensured it's QB are passing more with better success. It's like trying to compare today's game with preforward pass NFL. Orton is ok. Maybe the best since Bledsoe, saying anything else is misguided. Fitz was better than Orton, even with all the INTs. Totally agree
JJFIVEOH Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 I don't think there is one statistical category that Fitz was better at than Orton except for rushing.
K-9 Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 Fine, take Jim Kelly out of the equation. Can you point out to me which QB the Bills have had in the last 12 years that can stand up to Orton's 2014 passing stats? I just don't see the value in comparing a bunch of bad QBs. Orton may be the best of the worst, but that's not saying much. I'm not convinced any of those other bad QBs, with the possible exception of Losman and Edwards, left MORE plays on the field than Orton. It's uncanny how our passing schemes frequently had multiple receivers running open only to be totally ignored by Orton. Bottom line is we didn't get good enough QB play to contend and I don't see Orton getting any better at this stage. GO BILLS!!!
qwksndmonster Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 I don't think there is one statistical category that Fitz was better at than Orton except for rushing. Fitz was manly, a leader, smart, pretty good pocket presence. He did all those things better than Ortmund.
JJFIVEOH Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 I just don't see the value in comparing a bunch of bad QBs. Orton may be the best of the worst, but that's not saying much. I'm not convinced any of those other bad QBs, with the possible exception of Losman and Edwards, left MORE plays on the field than Orton. It's uncanny how our passing schemes frequently had multiple receivers running open only to be totally ignored by Orton. Bottom line is we didn't get good enough QB play to contend and I don't see Orton getting any better at this stage. GO BILLS!!! Fair enough. The comparison was about numbers and QB's making a WR look good. It wasn't about the future, it wasn't about the wins......... it was about whether or not Orton was enough to make Watkins look good. Fitz was manly, a leader, smart, pretty good pocket presence. He did all those things better than Ortmund. Fine, but I've been talking about numbers. Actual statistical numbers.
wjag Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 In addition to the NFL changing the rules in favor of passing, they also protect the QB like never before. Can't hit him high, low or late. Remember the pounding that Kelly took and try to imagine him in today's NFL.
JJFIVEOH Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 In addition to the NFL changing the rules in favor of passing, they also protect the QB like never before. Can't hit him high, low or late. Remember the pounding that Kelly took and try to imagine him in today's NFL. I can agree with that.
TrueBlueGED Posted December 28, 2014 Report Posted December 28, 2014 In addition to the NFL changing the rules in favor of passing, they also protect the QB like never before. Can't hit him high, low or late. Remember the pounding that Kelly took and try to imagine him in today's NFL. And Orton turtles with these rules. Imagine if he could actually get hit? He'd have retired instead of almost retiring twice.
SwampD Posted December 29, 2014 Report Posted December 29, 2014 In the past four weeks, the Bills have held Rogers, Manning, and Brady to ZERO passing touchdowns. Think about that. Watkins is going to be a stud for years to come. Beckham et al. will come back to earth and be jag. Winning in Gillette,… F### Yeah! It's a big deal. I don't care if it was a meaningless game. Does anyone really think that if Brady didn't take a shot in the first that Belichick wouldn't have kept him in the game? He's a grade A douchebag. F the Pats!!!! Winning record. It was a good season and we should all be happy today. If the Bills do nothing they will be better next year. With minor tweaking they are in the playoffs.
WildCard Posted December 29, 2014 Author Report Posted December 29, 2014 Someone at TBD derived a schedule for us next season. Home: Miami, New England, NY Jets, Houston, Indianapolis, Dallas, NY Giants, Pittsburgh Away: Miami, New England, NY Jets, Tennessee, Philadelphia, Washington, Kansas City Jacksonville, October 25th - Week 7 (London) November 1, Week 8, Bye We get the NFC East and AFC South, and either Pitt or Cincy based on whoever loses tonight. Does the London game count as our prime time? If not, I think we could be due to host a MNF/SNF with someone from the NFC East being a prime candidate.
Randall Flagg Posted December 29, 2014 Report Posted December 29, 2014 The game today doesn't mean much to me, but the win in Gillette brings a little bit off the shoulders. Don't have to hear about that streak going in there next year.
Hoss Posted December 29, 2014 Report Posted December 29, 2014 Agreed with most of what you're saying except the sentiment that $1M isn't a big difference. It's bigger than that. You can't go into negotiations thinking $1M isn't a big deal because eventually it will become a big deal. We can't pay four defensive lineman that much. It just won't work. Kyle Williams is better than Hughes and is being paid $7M. Hughes, as awesome as this is, is the weak link of the four. That'll likely change as Kyle's career winds down. If you pay Hughes $10M other guys will change their negotiation stances, too. Someone at TBD derived a schedule for us next season. We get the NFC East and AFC South, and either Pitt or Cincy based on whoever loses tonight. Does the London game count as our prime time? If not, I think we could be due to host a MNF/SNF with someone from the NFC East being a prime candidate. Unless they play it in prime time it won't count. I think we'll get some prime time looks. Wouldn't be shocked to see us get more than one.
drnkirishone Posted December 29, 2014 Report Posted December 29, 2014 I just want to make sure i understand how the defense of Ortonawsomeness is going down. First we compare direct stats to 2 different eras to make it seem like he is better than the franchise great. when that gets blown up due to silly things like stat inflation that was somehow overlooked in the original point. We turn outrage at being called out on said sillyness and turn to ya but who has been better since? did i miss anything?
JJFIVEOH Posted December 29, 2014 Report Posted December 29, 2014 I just want to make sure i understand how the defense of Ortonawsomeness is going down. First we compare direct stats to 2 different eras to make it seem like he is better than the franchise great. when that gets blown up due to silly things like stat inflation that was somehow overlooked in the original point. We turn outrage at being called out on said sillyness and turn to ya but who has been better since? did i miss anything? You forgot the complete ignorance of the original point.
Eleven Posted December 29, 2014 Report Posted December 29, 2014 In the past four weeks, the Bills have held Rogers, Manning, and Brady to ZERO passing touchdowns. Think about that. Watkins is going to be a stud for years to come. Beckham et al. will come back to earth and be jag. Winning in Gillette,… F### Yeah! It's a big deal. I don't care if it was a meaningless game. Does anyone really think that if Brady didn't take a shot in the first that Belichick wouldn't have kept him in the game? He's a grade A douchebag. F the Pats!!!! Winning record. It was a good season and we should all be happy today. If the Bills do nothing they will be better next year. With minor tweaking they are in the playoffs. I have no idea what is going on in the rest of this thread, but you have summed up the important things that happened today.
Brawndo Posted December 29, 2014 Report Posted December 29, 2014 If the Watkins Trade was not made, there is strong speculation the 9th pick would have been Eric Ebron not ODB. If Brandon is retained, move his office to PSE in One Seneca Tower far away from OBD.
Eleven Posted December 29, 2014 Report Posted December 29, 2014 If the Watkins Trade was not made, there is strong speculation the 9th pick would have been Eric Ebron not ODB. If Brandon is retained, move his office to PSE in One Seneca Tower far away from OBD. Your first sentence, while completely correct, still does not excuse using two first-round draft picks on a wide receiver.
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