How do Sabres reach cap floor next year and penalty for failing to do so?

[Hoss]

 

 

I just showed you that if you keep him next year and buy him out.. he would have a cap hit for 2 years of 2.166 (15/16) and then a cap credit for 2 years after that (17/18) for 1.166 (which is when you would need the extra room)

 

They don't get a cap credit. They have a cap hit of $2.3 then $2.3 then $1.16 and $1.16...

You're reading cap geek wrong. The savings are negative, not the actual cap hit.

[Hellinator]

For the 300th time, they will have no problem reaching the floor. They do not have to sign anyone to ridiculous contracts and they can buy out Leino if they choose. It doesn't matter .

 

If the cap this year is set at 68 Mill then the floor is 52 Million.

The current cap is 57 Million if you lose Leino's 4.5 it will be 52.5 Mill just above the cap floor

if you resign every RFA and UFA.. That is not happening.. in fact any player on an elc that makes the team next year will continue to push it further down.

 

They don't get a cap credit. They have a cap hit of $2.3 then $2.3 then $1.16 and $1.16...

You're reading cap geek wrong. The savings are negative, not the actual cap hit.

 

I see what you are saying, it's because it was how it was said in the breakdown. They gave you a break down of his salary and then added the last part making it sound like it was in fact indicating a credit.

 

Ville Leino is 31 years old on the buyout date of June 15, 2015, setting the buyout ratio at 2/3 and the total buyout cost at $4,666,667 spread over 4 years. His contract was originally valued at $27,000,000 beginning in 2011 and ending in 2017, with $7,000,000 remaining from the buyout year forward. The following is a season-by-season breakdown of the buyout. A negative buyout cap hit indicates a credit.

 

I wonder how you ever get a credit then because you are always doubling the length of the remaining years where there is actually no salary owed on the original contract to subtract from. Call me confused.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Hellinator

[MattPie]

Currently we have 13 contracts committed to next season @ 36.9M

 

Tyler Ennis - offer 4 year 16M (3.5, 4.0, 4.0, 4.5) - 4M cap hit

Cory Conacher - offer 2 year 2.8M (1.3, 1.5) - 1.4M cap hit

Marcus Foligno - tough contract - offer 2 year 5.6M (2.6, 3.0) - cap hit 2.8M

 

that's 8.2M added or 16 contracts @ 45.1M

 

now we have 7 contracts and about 9M needed to be spent.

 

2/3 UFA's and the cap floor won't be a problem.

 

Konopka, D'Agostini, McBain can all walk

 

So this seems pretty reasonable (without looking at whether the Foligno and Conacher contracts fall into a bad spot age-wise). So what's the problem? It doesn't even factor in scoring a mid-name UFA (Ott, Callahan, etc.)

[mjd1001]

I'd look for the Sabres to sign a few guys who might command 3-4 million per year to 3.5 to 4.5 million per year deals. They will look for mid-level guys like that who have some talent, but character over talent, and who they can get on 3-4 year deals at the most. I'm not sure it is going to happen, but throwing 3-4 years at 4 million per yer at Ott might be something to think of.

 

Maybe try to get 2-3 of those type guys.

 

Then fill out the roster with lower ranking vets, not quite scrap heap guys but maybe just above (no more than 2 million per year, no more than 2 years) who are good character guys with a little less talent.

 

That will get you to the floor with still a lot of room to make future moves and re-sign younger guys over the next couple of years if/when needed.

[tom webster]

 

 

So this seems pretty reasonable (without looking at whether the Foligno and Conacher contracts fall into a bad spot age-wise). So what's the problem? It doesn't even factor in scoring a mid-name UFA (Ott, Callahan, etc.)

 

Exactly. There is no problem

[Hellinator]

So this seems pretty reasonable (without looking at whether the Foligno and Conacher contracts fall into a bad spot age-wise). So what's the problem? It doesn't even factor in scoring a mid-name UFA (Ott, Callahan, etc.)

 

Where is that number coming from 13 contracts for 36 Million?

Edited March 18, 2014 by Hellinator

[LGR4GM]

Where is that number coming from 13 contracts for 36 Million?

its 15 contracts, 39.27million

http://www.capgeek.com/sabres

[Hellinator]

its 15 contracts, 39.27million

http://www.capgeek.com/sabres

That is why I was questioning it.. because that is the right number that you are quoting and that is WITH Leino's contract.. So subtract it you are at roughly 34,750,000 at 14. How many newbs will be up? Pysyk, Gregorenko, Larsson, Varone, Adam? I would expect at least 3 up next season. so thats what 17 contracts for 37,000 ,000. Then the RFA's seem a bit whacked.. I don't see Foligno getting 2.8 and 3 Mill as a RFA. no freaking way. Not even sure I would resign Ennis to that though this team would make me puke next year if he wasn't. So maybe 20 contracts at 44,500,00. Hank at what 2.5. .. so 47. at 21 and I guess we are hoping to sign OTT and/or Callahan.. okay maybe then we get to 52.. but we have 7 contracts expiring next year so now all the trades have to bring salary back equaly to what we get rid of at the deadlline. Managing the floor will be a bigger headache than most can see.

[LGR4GM]

That is why I was questioning it.. because that is the right number that you are quoting and that is WITH Leino's contract.. So subtract it you are at roughly 34,750,000 at 14. How many newbs will be up? Pysyk, Gregorenko, Larsson, Varone, Adam? I would expect at least 3 up next season. so thats what 17 contracts for 37,000 ,000. Then the RFA's seem a bit whacked.. I don't see Foligno getting 2.8 and 3 Mill as a RFA. no freaking way. Not even sure I would resign Ennis to that though this team would make me puke next year if he wasn't. So maybe 20 contracts at 44,500,00. Hank at what 2.5. .. so 47. at 21 and I guess we are hoping to sign OTT and/or Callahan.. okay maybe then we get to 52.. but we have 7 contracts expiring next year so now all the trades have to bring salary back equaly to what we get rid of at the deadlline. Managing the floor will be a bigger headache than most can see.

No it won't. Ennis, Foligno, Deslauriers will all get raises. Conacher may get a small raise. Now all of those players regardless of raises don't count against the 14ppl (minus leino) or the 35mil (roughly post Leino buyout). So you figure Ennis at 3.25, Foligno at 1.25, Conacher at 1.25 and Deslauriers at 900k that puts you at 41mil with 18 contracts leaving you 12 million for the last 5 contracts. You gotta sign Tallinder to say 3mil and Pysyk adds 900k so you are at roughly 45mil leaving you 8 mil for 3 contracts. It should be no problem finding a couple of vets at 4mil a piece for 2-3yr deals.

[MattPie]

That is why I was questioning it.. because that is the right number that you are quoting and that is WITH Leino's contract.. So subtract it you are at roughly 34,750,000 at 14. How many newbs will be up? Pysyk, Gregorenko, Larsson, Varone, Adam? I would expect at least 3 up next season. so thats what 17 contracts for 37,000 ,000. Then the RFA's seem a bit whacked.. I don't see Foligno getting 2.8 and 3 Mill as a RFA. no freaking way. Not even sure I would resign Ennis to that though this team would make me puke next year if he wasn't. So maybe 20 contracts at 44,500,00. Hank at what 2.5. .. so 47. at 21 and I guess we are hoping to sign OTT and/or Callahan.. okay maybe then we get to 52.. but we have 7 contracts expiring next year so now all the trades have to bring salary back equaly to what we get rid of at the deadlline. Managing the floor will be a bigger headache than most can see.

 

Kind of. If we're, say over the cap by $5M until the trade deadline, we can be under the cap by a bit for the last month or two and still spend to the cap floor (I think). Can someone verify that the cap floor is how much you spend on salary per year, but it doesn't apply per game?

 

A more concrete example (using easy math). Lets say the limit/floor is $64M/$44M (like it is now). If you pay a collection of players $63M per year for the first 60 games (near the limit), that's 63M * (60/82) = $46M spent up to game 60. After game 60, you trade off $20M per year in contracts for picks and are now under the "floor" . You play out the remaining games at 43M * (22/82) = $11.5M, for a total $57.5M spent over the course of the year, well above the cap floor of $44M.

 

I haven't looked, but I bet the Sabres are under the floor if they had been playing this set of players all year.

[Iron Crotch]

That is why I was questioning it.. because that is the right number that you are quoting and that is WITH Leino's contract.. So subtract it you are at roughly 34,750,000 at 14. How many newbs will be up? Pysyk, Gregorenko, Larsson, Varone, Adam? I would expect at least 3 up next season. so thats what 17 contracts for 37,000 ,000. Then the RFA's seem a bit whacked.. I don't see Foligno getting 2.8 and 3 Mill as a RFA. no freaking way. Not even sure I would resign Ennis to that though this team would make me puke next year if he wasn't. So maybe 20 contracts at 44,500,00. Hank at what 2.5. .. so 47. at 21 and I guess we are hoping to sign OTT and/or Callahan.. okay maybe then we get to 52.. but we have 7 contracts expiring next year so now all the trades have to bring salary back equaly to what we get rid of at the deadlline. Managing the floor will be a bigger headache than most can see.

 

Without Ville, and assuming a compliance buyout on him, we start with the following 13 guys under contract for $31.932 million:

2 goalies: Enroth & Neuvirth

3 d-men: Myers, Hoff, Weber

7 forwards: CoHo, Stewart, Mitchell, Stafford, Girgs, Flynn, Ellis

 

Rochester guys who may be ready: Pysyk, Larsson, Risto

RFAs: Conacher (?), Deslauriers (re-sign), Ennis (re-sign), Foligno (re-sign), McBain (?), Rudy (?)

UFAs: D'Agostini (?), Konopka (re-sign), Scott (re-sign), Sulzer (?), Tallinder (re-sign)

 

There is pretty much no combination of the above guys that gets the team to the cap floor, assuming everyone gets a "reasonable" raise (e.g., throwing $2.8 mil. at Foligno is not a "reasonable" raise IMHO). Most here think we'll sign some UFAs, but I wonder if Murray doesn't orchestrate a trade or two in the off-season?

[Hoss]

Something that hasn't been mentioned: if we pick first overall and that player makes the team then his cap hit will be around $4 million (with performance bonuses).

[Hellinator]

No it won't. Ennis, Foligno, Deslauriers will all get raises. Conacher may get a small raise. Now all of those players regardless of raises don't count against the 14ppl (minus leino) or the 35mil (roughly post Leino buyout). So you figure Ennis at 3.25, Foligno at 1.25, Conacher at 1.25 and Deslauriers at 900k that puts you at 41mil with 18 contracts leaving you 12 million for the last 5 contracts. You gotta sign Tallinder to say 3mil and Pysyk adds 900k so you are at roughly 45mil leaving you 8 mil for 3 contracts. It should be no problem finding a couple of vets at 4mil a piece for 2-3yr deals.

 

It was kind of my point from the beginning.. So you get rid of Leino and have to spend 4-6 Million on a couple scrubs to fill in...I just didn't see the point to spend extra money for another losing effort next year... but the regular buyout after next season that I was proposing seems to effect the cap too long.. I though we would be getting a credit.. either way.. you buy him out thats fine if you find a couple guys that just want to spin their wheels for a couple years here.. may not be as easy as it sounds. Ask the Islanders.

[MattPie]

Without Ville, and assuming a compliance buyout on him, we start with the following 13 guys under contract for $31.932 million:

2 goalies: Enroth & Neuvirth

3 d-men: Myers, Hoff, Weber

7 forwards: CoHo, Stewart, Mitchell, Stafford, Girgs, Flynn, Ellis

 

Rochester guys who may be ready: Pysyk, Larsson, Risto

RFAs: Conacher (?), Deslauriers (re-sign), Ennis (re-sign), Foligno (re-sign), McBain (?), Rudy (?)

UFAs: D'Agostini (?), Konopka (re-sign), Scott (re-sign), Sulzer (?), Tallinder (re-sign)

 

There is pretty much no combination of the above guys that gets the team to the cap floor, assuming everyone gets a "reasonable" raise (e.g., throwing $2.8 mil. at Foligno is not a "reasonable" raise IMHO). Most here think we'll sign some UFAs, but I wonder if Murray doesn't orchestrate a trade or two in the off-season?

 

Huh? 13 guys signed paying out $32M. Roster is 23 players, let's say the cap floor is $48M next year (up $4M from this year's $44M). Are you really saying there's no way they sign 10 guys for an average of $1.6M/year?

[Hellinator]

Kind of. If we're, say over the cap by $5M until the trade deadline, we can be under the cap by a bit for the last month or two and still spend to the cap floor (I think). Can someone verify that the cap floor is how much you spend on salary per year, but it doesn't apply per game?

 

A more concrete example (using easy math). Lets say the limit/floor is $64M/$44M (like it is now). If you pay a collection of players $63M per year for the first 60 games (near the limit), that's 63M * (60/82) = $46M spent up to game 60. After game 60, you trade off $20M per year in contracts for picks and are now under the "floor" . You play out the remaining games at 43M * (22/82) = $11.5M, for a total $57.5M spent over the course of the year, well above the cap floor of $44M.

 

I haven't looked, but I bet the Sabres are under the floor if they had been playing this set of players all year.

 

Counting the Cap:

• Team salary expenditures are calculated on a daily basis from the first day to the final day of the NHL regular season.
  
• A team is in compliance if it has not already exceeded the cap for the season, and if it could carry its current roster without exceeding the cap at the end of the season.
  
• Counted against the cap:
  - Players on the active roster or injured reserve.
  - Players who have left the team on a contract buyout, according to a formula that charges a percentage of the buyout against the cap.
  - New for 2013: Above a minimum threshold, salary paid to NHL players who have been assigned to play in another professional league (such as the American Hockey League or a league in Europe) will count against the cap.
  
• Not counted against the cap:
  : - Junior-aged players who are returned to junior hockey after signing an NHL contract.
  - Players on the long-term injured list. (See "Long Term Injuries" below.)
  

Maybe I guess it depends on what the floor ends up being.. Originally was saying 52 Million. That might change.. I also see there is a new thing about a minimum threshold now with AHL players.. So depending on where that threshold is, we might get some cap from that. Interesting, if that is the case.. there might be more flexibility than originally thought.

 

I found something on it.

http://www.mcsorleys...-in-the-minors/

Full article above

 

The new rule, in its simplest form: for all players in the minors, any cap hit above $925K still counts against the cap.

This number goes up every couple of seasons, and is actually defined as that year’s minimum salary plus $375K. This up-coming season, that amounts to $925K. Last season, it was $900K. (See the end of this post, for the complete minimums over the course of the new CBA.)

 

Which all our AHL players are 925,000 or less... so no extra cap there.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Hellinator

[Iron Crotch]

Huh? 13 guys signed paying out $32M. Roster is 23 players, let's say the cap floor is $48M next year (up $4M from this year's $44M). Are you really saying there's no way they sign 10 guys for an average of $1.6M/year?

 

Cap is expected to be $71 million (might not be) so floor would be around $51 million give or take. Run the numbers yourself on CapGeek. The current collection of craptastic players doesn't get us to the cap floor largely because most of our RFA/UFA/prospect guys (Pysyk, Larsson, Risto, Conacher, Deslauriers, Rudy, D'Agostini, Konopka, Scott, Sulzer) don't make anything and certainly aren't worthy of monster raises. The only ones that do make or will make more than $1.6 million are Ennis, Tallinder, Foligno (assuming he gets a healthy raise), and McBain.

 

BTW - the thought of keeping many of the above guys around next year makes me cringe. :bag: ...I really hope Murray works some magic this off-season!

[Hoss]

If you get rid of the "exclude bonuses from cap hits" at the top on Capgeek then you get the real picture of next year.

 

That would put us just over $40 million on 15 contracts. Buyout Leino which moves it to about $36 million on 14 deals.

Then you consider Ennis and Foligno should move that number back up to about $40 million on 16 deals.

So you'd probably need to sign seven guys to about $12 million. Not going to be too hard.

 

 

EDIT: I see some above have already caught on to this, carry on.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Tankalicious

[TrueBlueGED]

What if they buy out Leino not on a compliance buyout, but on a regular one? That makes it even easier, right?

 

Using Leino's contract to help get to the floor would be an affront to the hockey gods. The gods gifted us compliance buyouts for Ville Leino and his ilk; ignoring this gift will piss them off. Heading into a year where we need some luck with the lottery, I'm not willing to take that chance!

Edited March 19, 2014 by TrueBluePhD

[LGR4GM]

Using Leino's contract to help get to the floor would be an affront to the hockey gods. The gods gifted us compliance buyouts for Ville Leino and his ilk; ignoring this gift will piss them off. Heading into a year where we need some luck with the lottery, I'm not willing to take that chance!

Ville Leino's contract should be sacrificed to the hockey gods.

[LastPommerFan]

Using Leino's contract to help get to the floor would be an affront to the hockey gods. The gods gifted us compliance buyouts for Ville Leino and his ilk; ignoring this gift will piss them off. Heading into a year where we need some luck with the lottery, I'm not willing to take that chance!

 

I feel like our best chance to win the lottery next year is for the Islanders to defer, and finish with the 11th worst record.

[Nitro60]

While the debate is what is the current total salary hit to the Sabres versus the cap floor that will go in effect for next season, the NHL is debating on whether to change the current draft format. The Sabres may be tanking but going with cheap players in order to strengthen their draft position a year from now. If the changes are made it may be all for naught and the lottery could push therm down to 4th or 5th and they lose out on the franchise changing type of player. I don't trust the NHL at all.

[Rasmus_]

As long as Leino is off the roster, they can recuperate it on someone else who can help the team I am happy with that. I really would prefer Konopka on the roster next season and not having Scott back.

[Eleven]

Bump.

[inkman]

I didn't think it was going to be a problem but with Ehrhoff and Leino off the books, they really need to pay someone. I hope GMTM has thought this through and already has an idea of who will sign here.

[LGR4GM]

I didn't think it was going to be a problem but with Ehrhoff and Leino off the books, they really need to pay someone. I hope GMTM has thought this through and already has an idea of who will sign here.

Maybe he has some good indications from guys that they will be signing in Buffalo July 1