Hired: Tim Murray, GM and Craig Patrick, Advisor

[X. Benedict]

Meddling really is the wrong word. The entire organization is Pegula's concern. He owns it. He can't meddle. It belongs to him.

 

The issue is whether or not he micromanages. I've never heard anyone that works for him say that he does.

[LGR4GM]

The piece of evidence that raised my eyebrow was the draft video when they drafted Zadorov.

How so? I just don't understand what about that specific moment?

 

 

I think if my boss asked me everyday what was going on I would be pissed. I like being left alone to do my job because I am smartest to do it without constant oversight. Tim Murray appears to be the same way from his interviews. I would guess someone tells TP what is going on but PLF and TM and even Devine don't strike me as gentlemen who have a problem telling TP no.

[Stoner]

Meddling really is the wrong word. The entire organization is Pegula's concern. He owns it. He can't meddle. It belongs to him.

 

The issue is whether or not he micromanages. I've never heard anyone that works for him say that he does.

 

I take my car to the shop. All I know about cars is that hamsters on steroids run really fast on a belt-thingy and that powers the thing. I tell my mechanic I need a new, ya know, transmission hickey. He knows I don't. He tells me I'm meddling. He's right, right?

[That Aud Smell]

I take my car to the shop. All I know about cars is that hamsters on steroids run really fast on a belt-thingy and that powers the thing. I tell my mechanic I need a new, ya know, transmission hickey. He knows I don't. He tells me I'm meddling. He's right, right?

 

/third man in

 

You're comparing a hare-brained consumer's understanding of automotive technology as expressed to a service provider to a self-made billionaire businessman's understanding of a business he acquired as expressed to someone he employs. Granted, the businessman doesn't have a background in the business he acquired. Still.

 

Oh, and from where I sit, here's how that scene at the 2013 draft played out: Garage owner's lead mechanic comes to garage owner and car owner and says "You want the car to run with a little extra pep, right? Right?" Both garage owner and car owner nod their agreement, so mechanic says, "Then we need to install some of those power converters from the Tosche Station." Both garage owner and car owner agree again. Aaaannd, scene.

[Stoner]

It's not the narrow, legalistic definition Judge Smell came up with, but here's a good working definition of meddling from Merriam-Webster. "To become involved in the activities and concerns of other people when your involvement is not wanted." Also: "to interest oneself in what is not one's concern: interfere without right or propriety." Cambridge Dictionary: "to try to change or have an influence on things that are not your responsibility."

 

It all fits an oil and gas man sticking his nose in a business he knows nothing (or virtually nothing) about. But, hey, that's the real reason for existence of the Buffalo Sabres. To be Terry's plaything in his second life.

 

Me? I wouldn't have raised my voice above a squeak when in the presence of hockey professionals, beyond telling them to go win a Cup, money's not an object, I'll be over here listening to what Scotty Bowman or Craig Patrick is telling me about the progress of your work. Because anything else would not be logical and not add a damned thing to achieving the ultimate goal.

 

But I'm a bigger fan than Terry, and so is everyone on this board, pretty much. Let's stop kissing his ass because he has money and call a spade a spade. He's run this franchise into the ground. How much worse could things be had he Golisanoed himself to Florida?

 

You're comparing a hare-brained consumer's understanding of automotive technology as expressed to a service provider to a self-made billionaire businessman's understanding of a business he acquired as expressed to someone he employs. Granted, the businessman doesn't have a background in the business he acquired. Still.

 

I'd bet the average car owner knows more about how his or her car works than Terry knows about how the business of winning hockey games works.

[sabills]

I take my car to the shop. All I know about cars is that hamsters on steroids run really fast on a belt-thingy and that powers the thing. I tell my mechanic I need a new, ya know, transmission hickey. He knows I don't. He tells me I'm meddling. He's right, right?

 

The auto-shop analogy works really well, I think. I know enough about cars to know when somethings wrong, and just about enough to tell when I'm having the wool pulled over my eyes. I want a mechanic who knows what I need and is smart so my car doesn't die again in a week, but isn't trying to sell me on crap I don't need.

[nfreeman]

 

But I'm a bigger fan than Terry, and so is everyone on this board, pretty much. Let's stop kissing his ass because he has money and call a spade a spade. He's run this franchise into the ground. How much worse could things be had he Golisanoed himself to Florida?

 

How? By (theoretically) instructing Darcy to sign Ehrhoff and Leino? Really?

 

I think it's much more accurate to say that he trusted Darcy to deliver a good team, and Darcy ran the franchise into the ground. And if you want to say that TP is accountable for that, I'm OK with that too, although I think his heart was, and is, in the right place.

[darksabre]

The mascot of this thread:

 

[That Aud Smell]

It's not the narrow, legalistic definition Judge Smell came up with

 

Heeeyyyy ... I resemble that remark.

 

here's a good working definition of meddling from Merriam-Webster. "To become involved in the activities and concerns of other people when your involvement is not wanted." Also: "to interest oneself in what is not one's concern: interfere without right or propriety." Cambridge Dictionary: "to try to change or have an influence on things that are not your responsibility."

 

You think an owner's involvement in shaping the future of the franchise is not wanted? You think the franchise's shape and makeup is not his concern? That he has no right to involve himself in those discussions?

 

Dude.

 

Let's stop kissing his ass because he has money and call a spade a spade. He's run this franchise into the ground.

 

What you see as running into the ground, others (well, me) see a guy who had his inherited FO take a big aggressive swing for the fences by adding FAs to a middling roster, missed badly, and, once that miss was apparent, started over from scratch.

 

In the world of pro sports team owners, I'll take that every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

Keeping up on what the Browns are doing?

 

I'd bet the average car owner knows more about how his or her car works than Terry knows about how the business of winning hockey games works.

 

Of course, the car owner you created in your scenario was far from average; s/he was a numb skull of the highest order

 

As for your proposition of Average Car Owner : Knowledge of Car Workings > Pegula : Knowledge of Hockey Success, I'll take a pass.

Edited February 11, 2014 by That Aud Smell

[Stoner]

The mascot of this thread:

 

 

Let's keep your kinky sex life out of this. Thanks.

[IKnowPhysics]

Let's keep your kinky sex life out of this. Thanks.

 

If he can spin that into an analogy about hockey, I'll allow it.

 

 

Heh, analogy.

Edited February 11, 2014 by IKnowPhysics

[Stoner]

You think an owner's involvement in shaping the future of the franchise is not wanted? You think the franchise's shape and makeup is not his concern? That he has no right to involve himself in those discussions?

 

Dude.

 

 

His concern? Yes, I'll grant you that. Is his involvement wanted by Tim Murray? Why would it be? His right? Again, I'll say no. Is a right able to be purchased? I like wine. I've never made it, I just drink it. I've always wanted to own a winery and win the fleur de Merlot (totally made up wine prize). Do I have any right to walk into my new winery and start swinging my balls around?

[apuszczalowski]

The auto-shop analogy works really well, I think. I know enough about cars to know when somethings wrong, and just about enough to tell when I'm having the wool pulled over my eyes. I want a mechanic who knows what I need and is smart so my car doesn't die again in a week, but isn't trying to sell me on crap I don't need.

But do you just take your car to the shop every day/week/month and leave it there to let the mechanic look it over and fix anything they decide is wrong, while silently signing a check to cover any costs?

I guess if you aren't a mechanic and you told one whats wrong with the car you would be meddling, the mechanic should just take your car, look it over, fix what he feels need fixing and you just pay the bill without question.

 

I have no problem with any owner putting in his 2 cents worth when discussing the team that he owns. Its only a problem and meddling (I agree with the previous post that said that since he is the owner it really isn't meddling since it is his business) when he is the one making the decisions and goes against what his GM and other front office decision makers suggest or decide. If TP comes in and and tells TM he has to re-sign Leino to a 10 year $100 million dollar deal, after TM says he is going to put him on waivers, thats meddling.

[Stoner]

I have no problem with any owner putting in his 2 cents worth when discussing the team that he owns. Its only a problem and meddling (I agree with the previous post that said that since he is the owner it really isn't meddling since it is his business) when he is the one making the decisions and goes against what his GM and other front office decision makers suggest or decide. If TP comes in and and tells TM he has to re-sign Leino to a 10 year $100 million dollar deal, after TM says he is going to put him on waivers, thats meddling.

 

Meddling can be more general than that though. If Terry came in and thought the team was a few pieces away and pushed for that, and I think he did, that's meddling to me. Even if he recognized it was time to overhaul the roster and rebuild, and pushed for that, that's meddling. Remember Darcy saying the owner would determine the extent of the rebuild? Meddling. Just let the hockey braintrust make these strategic decisions. It's so simple, I can't believe I'm getting any debate on it. (Edit: And if every other team has an owner who is similarly involved, imagine the advantage it would give us if we were the only franchise doing it the "right way.")

Edited February 11, 2014 by PASabreFan

[apuszczalowski]

His concern? Yes, I'll grant you that. Is his involvement wanted by Tim Murray? Why would it be? His right? Again, I'll say no. Is a right able to be purchased? I like wine. I've never made it, I just drink it. I've always wanted to own a winery and win the fleur de Merlot (totally made up wine prize). Do I have any right to walk into my new winery and start swinging my balls around?

Aside from the health department more then likely having a problem with it and there being rules against that sort of stuff, as the owner you have every right to have things done your way. Your employees then have the choice to follow your orders and do what you say, or they can advise you of what they know is the better way of doing things. Leaving things up to the trusted and knowledgable staff that you hire to run your business is the ideal way to run a sucessful business, assuming you hired the best staff possible that can achieve the goal you set out. But those goals and how to achieve them have to be set by someone, and usually thats the person all the way at the top signing the cheques. TP comes in, says the obvious goal is to win the Cup, ideally he would love to have a perfect staff in place that can just go out and achieve that goal without any further questioning, but thats never the case. Theres always other questions like how do you want it done? Whats the time frame to get it done? What kind of budget/funding do they have to get it done? Are they able to hire/fire as they please? etc. Again, if TP steps in during a meeting of the Front office and says go out and sign player 'X', I want him on my team after the front office just talked about how he is not what they need to be successful, that could be seen as meddling, even though as the owner he has every right to do this. If he sits in a meeting and says that he likes Player 'X' after what he has seen of him, but does not make his front office sign him if they don't feel he is the right fit, thats not meddling, its just discussing.

 

the example PA is using about the car seems like TP is demanding that the Sabres go out and sign Derek Jeter to play in goal for them

 

Meddling can be more general than that though. If Terry came in and thought the team was a few pieces away and pushed for that, and I think he did, that's meddling to me. Even if he recognized it was time to overhaul the roster and rebuild, and pushed for that, that's meddling. Remember Darcy saying the owner would determine the extent of the rebuild? Meddling. Just let the hockey braintrust make these strategic decisions. It's so simple, I can't believe I'm getting any debate on it. (Edit: And if every other team has an owner who is similarly involved, imagine the advantage it would give us if we were the only franchise doing it the "right way.")

Sure, your assuming that there is only one way to rebuild and that only a knowledgable front office hockey expert knows this one way to do it. DRs comment is simple stating that the owner is going to let him know the direction he wants the team to go in. He could say I want you to mortgage the future of the franchise to win now at all costs, or he could say that he wants them to continue on how they were doing it already, or he could say I want you to remove any and all NHL caliber players from this roster and turn them into as many prospects and picks as you can so we can start over from the very begining and spend years building the team back up. Ultimately the decision is going to affect the owner because the decision being made can affect the well being of the franchises financial situation.

[That Aud Smell]

Do I have any right to walk into my new winery and start swinging my balls around?

Ew.

 

Aside from the health department more then likely having a problem with it and there being rules against that sort of stuff, as the owner you have every right to have things done your way.

This.

 

It's so simple, I can't believe I'm getting any debate on it.

 

I think this gets to the root of the ###### in your debate armor.

 

Nothing (or at least precious little) in life is simple. How to go about being a successful owner of a pro sports franchise isn't simple. Far from it. And there are many roads that lead to Rome; there is more than one way to skin a cat, and such.

 

EDIT: The filters here are so weird. I am pretty sure people can use "dick", but can't use the phrase "c h ink in one's armor"?

Edited February 11, 2014 by That Aud Smell

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Pegula has every right as owner to be as involved with the team, and do whatever he wants.

 

Good evaluators, operators, and trustworthy managers in top level positions have every right to expect a major level of flexibility and freedom without having to worry about constant hovering. They also have the right to take their wares elsewhere if hovering occurs. Pat Lafontaine already has done so once.

 

I'm giving Pegula full credit for swallowing his pride and making the executive moves. For those that don't think you can find out a lot about people through their words and how they act, you must really think this team is going to horrible forever, because the FIRST thing that came out of Ted Nolan's, Pat Lafontaine's, and Tim Murray's mouths was knowing what kind of person you have. It wasn't speed, or great skating, or a pinpoint shot. It was about who can be trusted to work hard, know their role, and bring common sense to the game. Pegula said he knows people.....he also asked, "What has Darcy ever done wrong?" That's enough evidence right there to question his hockey cognitive, and personal radar.

 

Tim Murray will talk to Pegula and I laid out responsible timelines.

 

And please don't mistake money with brilliance. People get sick of my horse racing comparisons over the years, but I have seen a lot of people come into a lot of money many different ways, including self-made. I have also seen the same people become overbearing in a hobby they attempt to take much too micro an approach in. I've also seen multiple trainers who pass up millions of dollars in ongoing business because the owner was not willing to take a passive approach and let the professionals make the important decisions. You ask the owner for permission before you make a big purchase or decide to sell a horse? Sure. You run by options for races, treatment, and other major variables when it is more than a short term goal involved? Sure. I was once asked to come to a Derby to distract and entertain owners because the group was so wrapped up in everything and distracting both the trainer and horse, the trainer had to lay down the law and needed a good cop to pump the tires and make the owners understand that their horse was about to do jack sh!t because they were getting way too involved. That's where a guy like Lafontaine comes in.....and why I have confidence that this Sabres' structure will work.

 

If indeed Pegula feels the need to be in constant contact with Tim Murray, Murray may be able to suck lemons for a few months....but he will be less effective, become resentful, and if he manages any early success at all, would be a candidate to bolt. He's already overwhelmed putting together everything on the fly. And again, I'm not the one saying Pegula is doing it.

[That Aud Smell]

Pegula said he knows people.....he also asked, "What has Darcy ever done wrong?" That's enough evidence right there to question his hockey cognitive, and personal radar.

Or it demonstrates that he's unfailingly loyal to his people, until he decides it's time to make a move.

 

That's where a guy like Lafontaine comes in.....and why I have confidence that this Sabres' structure will work.

 

If indeed Pegula feels the need to be in constant contact with Tim Murray, Murray may be able to suck lemons for a few months....but he will be less effective, become resentful, and if he manages any early success at all, would be a candidate to bolt. He's already overwhelmed putting together everything on the fly. And again, I'm not the one saying Pegula is doing it.

I can't say I disagree with this. And I think PLF is savvy enough to have said as much to his boss: "Listen, Terry. Tim's a talent-evaluating and roster-building workaholic, but he's not the sort of guy who wants to be bothered with chumming around with the team's owner. So let him do his thing. I am Tim's direct report, and I will report to you on what he's got going. And then from time to time, we'll have meetings or calls where we're all involved."

[dudacek]

I think Pegula is very curious about what Murray and company are doing to improve his team.

I think Murray is absolutely the type to chafe under a too-involved owner.

It's Lafontaine's role to strike the balance between the two.

Given his experience with Wang, I'm betting he's not overly concerned about Pegula, or he wouldn't have taken this job.

 

Edit: what Aud said.

Edited February 11, 2014 by dudacek

[X. Benedict]

 

If indeed Pegula feels the need to be in constant contact with Tim Murray, Murray may be able to suck lemons for a few months....but he will be less effective, become resentful, and if he manages any early success at all, would be a candidate to bolt. He's already overwhelmed putting together everything on the fly. And again, I'm not the one saying Pegula is doing it.

 

 

 

It seems that you've decided that Murray won't like talking to Pegula very often.

 

In fact, I think that Murray, if he's a normal human, will enjoy Terry very much.

 

Most conversations with Pegula end with him saying to his people, "Is there anything I can do to help?" If there is, and it is within his power, he'll try to do it. He really will.

 

Pegula believes in empowering people. He believes it with his company, friends and family. There is no reason for him to change with Murray.

It is really is the very opposite of PA's definition of meddling.

 

Note that empowering people doesn't lead to automatic success. It just creates a culture of empowerment.

Sometimes it means people are empowered to do stupid things. And often it means staying loyal to the people that have made mistakes.

 

But it isn't meddling, and it isn't micromanagement.

 

Murray, if he is a regular hockey guy, will love Pegula.

 

It's so simple, I can't believe I'm getting any debate on it.

 

So this isn't the beginning of a 5-8 year witch hunt?

 

That's good.

[MattPie]

So this isn't the beginning of a 5-8 year witch hunt?

 

That's good.

 

I'll believe it when I see it, really.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

 

 

It seems that you've decided that Murray won't like talking to Pegula very often.

 

In fact, I think that Murray, if he's a normal human, will enjoy Terry very much.

 

Most conversations with Pegula end with him saying to his people, "Is there anything I can do to help?" If there is, and it is within his power, he'll try to do it. He really will.

 

Pegula believes in empowering people. He believes it with his company, friends and family. There is no reason for him to change with Murray.

It is really is the very opposite of PA's definition of meddling.

 

Note that empowering people doesn't lead to automatic success. It just creates a culture of empowerment.

Sometimes it means people are empowered to do stupid things. And often it means staying loyal to the people that have made mistakes.

 

But it isn't meddling, and it isn't micromanagement.

 

Murray, if he is a regular hockey guy, will love Pegula.

 

 

 

So this isn't the beginning of a 5-8 year witch hunt?

 

That's good.

 

How do you know these things?

 

I'm not saying you don't....but at the same time, then you can't say I or others don't have just as valid a beat on the situation. I have 3 years of public statements from Pegula to go off of. I don't have as much on Murray, but I think I have a good read on him.

 

Again....there is nothing wrong with talking to and "enjoying" the person. All I am going off of is the FACT that Darcy said he talked to Pegula every day. I say there is absolutely no need for the GM to talk to the owner everyday, especially in a bloated management structure such as the Sabres where there is so much cross-involvement. If this is indeed happening, it is inefficient, and the Sabres will not have as high of a ceiling going forward as I would expect them to if everyone stays within their roles.

 

 

 

 

Or it demonstrates that he's unfailingly loyal to his people, until he decides it's time to make a move.

 

 

I can't say I disagree with this. And I think PLF is savvy enough to have said as much to his boss: "Listen, Terry. Tim's a talent-evaluating and roster-building workaholic, but he's not the sort of guy who wants to be bothered with chumming around with the team's owner. So let him do his thing. I am Tim's direct report, and I will report to you on what he's got going. And then from time to time, we'll have meetings or calls where we're all involved."

 

I am assuming this is the understanding with Lafontaine and Pegula. I am not the one saying he is talking to Murray every day. If he is though, I am saying, "Oh boy, watch out!"

[26CornerBlitz]

Is it February 25th yet? ;)

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Is it February 25th yet? ;)

 

I know. We need to see the car on the road for a while.

 

I just laugh at guys like PA and myself taking flack for "reading the temperature" on a situation. We've been taking flack for years....and look where we are now with this team???

 

People develop track records. What some see as "negativity" or "reading into things", history sees as being absolutely correct. For those in doubt, pull up the Pegula Buys Sabres thread and read the concerns from some of "Stormcloud" back then, the projected outcome 3 years down the road, and take out your red pen with a straight face. Or feel free to review the season prediction threads from the past few years.

 

Sometimes you just have to admit things you don't want to.....like Pegula did 3 years too late.

[26CornerBlitz]

I know. We need to see the car on the road for a while.

 

I just laugh at guys like PA and myself taking flack for "reading the temperature" on a situation. We've been taking flack for years....and look where we are now with this team???

 

People develop track records. What some see as "negativity" or "reading into things", history sees as being absolutely correct. For those in doubt, pull up the Pegula Buys Sabres thread and read the concerns from some of "Stormcloud" back then, the projected outcome 3 years down the road, and take out your red pen with a straight face. Or feel free to review the season prediction threads from the past few years.

 

Sometimes you just have to admit things you don't want to.....like Pegula did 3 years too late.

 

Absolutely no argument there.