GAME DISCUSSION THREAD GDT: Ottawa at Buffalo 12-10-13 at 7:00 PM EST

[LTS]

I recall a Sabres game earlier in the year where there was a delayed penalty on the Sabres. The puck went off a Sabres' stick but the play continued because he didn't have 'control' of the puck. It only touched his stick.

 

Given. If the puck glances or deflects off a stick it is usually not considered enough to blow the whistle. I think the criteria that is generally used is whether or not the player initiated contact with the puck or if the puck initiated contact with the player. Last night the puck was lying there, not moving and the Sens player touched it. Done.

 

Of course the NHL should require an explanation on the ice at the time. Last night does nothing to help the game as the fans in the arena (and on TV since they didn't know why either) and only serves to create the perception that the referees are clueless. I'm not saying fans would accept the explanation any more than they do in the NFL when the referee makes the obvious call and home fans still boo but at least the reason is stated.

[dudacek]

 

 

You are always alive with decent talent that works hard and has grit. Boston is the prime example. Lucic, Krejci, Marchand, Siedenberg....those guys are the engine. All B/C level talent but will bust their hump and drive you nuts. All those Detroit teams had guys like McCarty, Draper, LaPointe...and it helps when the talent has jam like Chara, or Chelios and Shannahan.

 

Girgensons/Foligno/Ott/Zadarov/McNabb is going to win you a Cup before Grigerenko/Hodgson/Ennis/Ehrhoff/Ristolainen will.

 

Now....those last 5 certainly have a place on a Cup team....you just need to find 2 or 3 guys with the pure talent of the 2nd group, and the mindset of the 1st group. Group A CAN succeed without Group B in the playoffs. Group B CANNOT succeed without Group A.

 

I agree with this (as I do with most of your team building analysis) almost 100%.

The almost is Ristolainen. I see a kid who is slightly cocky, fearless and not afraid to get dirty.

He's still young but I see him closer to the A's than the B's.

What are you seeing that I'm missing? it's not the hair is it?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

I agree with this (as I do with most of your team building analysis) almost 100%.

The almost is Ristolainen. I see a kid who is slightly cocky, fearless and not afraid to get dirty.

He's still young but I see him closer to the A's than the B's.

What are you seeing that I'm missing? it's not the hair is it?

 

I think he will be ok. He is cocky...offensively. On defense he made a few "deliberate" hits, but it just doesn't seem in his instinct to want to do the little things like clear out, tie up, board burn, etc. He may be there in time, but I'm penciling him in as a bigger Ehrhoff at this point with the body to be able to throw a check now and then. I hate to say it....but he reminds me of Mike Wilson.

[26CornerBlitz]

NHL Hockey Ops explains No Goal Review

 

At 15:30 of the second period in the Senators/Sabres game, the Situation Room initiated a video review because the puck entered the Ottawa net. The referee informed the Situation Room that he had a delayed hi-sticking penalty against Ottawa's Jason Spezza therefore the play was stopped as soon as any Ottawa player gained possession/control of the puck. According to Rule 15.1 "When the team to be penalized gains control of the puck, the Referee will blow his whistle to stop play and impose the penalty on the offending player." This is not a reviewable play therefore the referee's call on the ice stands. No goal Buffalo.

[Campy]

What about the talented players who work hard? You know, all the ones who keep winning Cups?

 

Ideally, sure.

 

But I read it as a choice between lazy and very talented versus hardworking and "just okay." And I'll take the hard working guy every time.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

Ideally, sure.

 

But I read it as a choice between lazy and very talented versus hardworking and "just okay." And I'll take the hard working guy every time.

 

You don't even need to be "lazy". You can be talented and just not have, "it". Considering the Sabres had a GM for 16 years that didn't know what "it", looked like.....it's no surprise many fans would think skill-set is the #1 factor. It's a valid opinion. So is liking sardines.

 

 

[TrueBlueGED]

You are always alive with decent talent that works hard and has grit. Boston is the prime example. Lucic, Krejci, Marchand, Siedenberg....those guys are the engine. All B/C level talent but will bust their hump and drive you nuts. All those Detroit teams had guys like McCarty, Draper, LaPointe...and it helps when the talent has jam like Chara, or Chelios and Shannahan.

 

Girgensons/Foligno/Ott/Zadarov/McNabb is going to win you a Cup before Grigerenko/Hodgson/Ennis/Ehrhoff/Ristolainen will.

 

Now....those last 5 certainly have a place on a Cup team....you just need to find 2 or 3 guys with the pure talent of the 2nd group, and the mindset of the 1st group. Group A CAN succeed without Group B in the playoffs. Group B CANNOT succeed without Group A.

 

I can't believe you talked about Boston's engine without Chara and Bergeron. Those other guys are just comfy seats in comparison.

 

True, but there are many levels between "Sabres under Rolston" and "Cup winner."

 

Fair. I think this is where I diverge from a lot of people in an entertainment sense: I don't find watching hard workers entertaining if they aren't talented enough. I fully admit to preferring" flashy" play.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

I can't believe you talked about Boston's engine without Chara and Bergeron. Those other guys are just comfy seats in comparison.

 

 

 

Fair. I think this is where I diverge from a lot of people in an entertainment sense: I don't find watching hard workers entertaining if they aren't talented enough. I fully admit to preferring" flashy" play.

 

How about Seguin?

 

I say...you need to find 2 or 3 of those guys....if you think Myers and Hodgson could ever be those guys....then that is where the problem is. "It"....they have to have "It". You can't build a team with Roy/Connolly/Pominville/Vanek/Stafford/Myers/Ehrhoff/Sekera....and have McCormick/Scott/Ellis/Kaleta and think it's going to average out. You just have skill with no grit and grit with no skill.

 

That's where Girgensons is so nice. He has "It", and should for the next 15 years. He may be a 12 goal scorer, or a 25 goal scorer. Give me 6 of him and you will always have a chance. You find your Bergeron and Chara and you will be a favorite year in and year out. I'll take 97 points in the regular season and 6 to 16 playoff wins over 108 points in the regular season and 0 to 10 playoff wins any day.

[dudacek]

 

 

How about Seguin?

 

I say...you need to find 2 or 3 of those guys....if you think Myers and Hodgson could ever be those guys....then that is where the problem is. "It"....they have to have "It". You can't build a team with Roy/Connolly/Pominville/Vanek/Stafford/Myers/Ehrhoff/Sekera....and have McCormick/Scott/Ellis/Kaleta and think it's going to average out. You just have skill with no grit and grit with no skill.

 

That's where Girgensons is so nice. He has "It", and should for the next 15 years. He may be a 12 goal scorer, or a 25 goal scorer. Give me 6 of him and you will always have a chance. You find your Bergeron and Chara and you will be a favorite year in and year out. I'll take 97 points in the regular season and 6 to 16 playoff wins over 108 points in the regular season and 0 to 10 playoff wins any day.

 

For sure. The Sabres may have finally grasped this with five of their top three picks in each of the past two drafts.

(One of can have an I told you so moment on Risto in 2018).

[TrueBlueGED]

How about Seguin?

 

I say...you need to find 2 or 3 of those guys....if you think Myers and Hodgson could ever be those guys....then that is where the problem is. "It"....they have to have "It". You can't build a team with Roy/Connolly/Pominville/Vanek/Stafford/Myers/Ehrhoff/Sekera....and have McCormick/Scott/Ellis/Kaleta and think it's going to average out. You just have skill with no grit and grit with no skill.

 

That's where Girgensons is so nice. He has "It", and should for the next 15 years. He may be a 12 goal scorer, or a 25 goal scorer. Give me 6 of him and you will always have a chance. You find your Bergeron and Chara and you will be a favorite year in and year out. I'll take 97 points in the regular season and 6 to 16 playoff wins over 108 points in the regular season and 0 to 10 playoff wins any day.

 

Love Seguin, and he's the type of offensive talent you need to win a Cup. He was too young to be a major piece of Boston's championship team, but he's absolutely the type of player I'd like to build around.

 

You can build around guys like Girgensons if they hit that 25 goal ceiling, and I'd suspect you'll be in the playoff mix more often than not. But I think a team built that way had a natural ceiling. In my estimation a lowish playoff seed would he typical and a trip to the second round about the best you could expect.

 

Certainly better than recent Sabres history, but not really what I'm interested in long term. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'd rather aim for a higher ceiling with admittedly a lower floor, than go for a higher floor but lower ceiling.

 

For sure. The Sabres may have finally grasped this with five of their top three picks in each of the past two drafts.

(One of can have an I told you so moment on Risto in 2018).

 

When can I say I told you so on Nichushkin? :P

[nfreeman]

I can't believe you talked about Boston's engine without Chara and Bergeron. Those other guys are just comfy seats in comparison.

 

 

 

Fair. I think this is where I diverge from a lot of people in an entertainment sense: I don't find watching hard workers entertaining if they aren't talented enough. I fully admit to preferring" flashy" play.

Love Seguin, and he's the type of offensive talent you need to win a Cup. He was too young to be a major piece of Boston's championship team, but he's absolutely the type of player I'd like to build around.

 

You can build around guys like Girgensons if they hit that 25 goal ceiling, and I'd suspect you'll be in the playoff mix more often than not. But I think a team built that way had a natural ceiling. In my estimation a lowish playoff seed would he typical and a trip to the second round about the best you could expect.

 

Certainly better than recent Sabres history, but not really what I'm interested in long term. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'd rather aim for a higher ceiling with admittedly a lower floor, than go for a higher floor but lower ceiling.

 

 

 

When can I say I told you so on Nichushkin? :P

 

First, I agree 100% on Chara and Bergeron. To be clear, though, those guys embody, IMHO, the elusive grit-skill combo that GoDD is referring to.

 

Second, you can prefer to watch flash, but you're not getting anywhere in the playoffs without heart. Malkin ain't winning a Cup without Crosby, and Kane ain't winning it without Toews (and Keith and Seabrook). The Sedins aren't going anywhere in the playoffs without Kesler.

 

Bottom line is that I think we can all agree that a true contender needs a number of top guys that have both. The grit function can't be delegated to the bottom 6 forwards -- that approach gets you a decent-to-good regular season and a first-round exit, as we saw in 2010 and 2011.

[dudacek]

 

When can I say I told you so on Nichushkin? :P

 

Right after he passes the cup to Lindy. :P

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

For sure. The Sabres may have finally grasped this with five of their top three picks in each of the past two drafts.

(One of can have an I told you so moment on Risto in 2018).

 

I'm ok with him, and he may end up very good. He does like to carry the puck. I just see him as that #2-4 guy you rely on more for offense, and his size will be good for getting in the way, but I don't sense the love and instinct for regular contact. Zadorov is probably a #2-4 as well, but he will scare the bejebbuz out of you and guys will not wander in front of the net without thinking twice. It just seems to me that you either have that in you, or you don't. I remember playing street hockey at 12 and clutching, holding and lifting sticks, getting in front and position on a guy, hooking an inside knee along the boards with your shin....you just do it. You just want to make life miserable for the other person every last way. I see that in Zadarov and Weber god bless his soul when he isn't shellshocked, and McNabb in the past. I'm hoping Risto comes around as he thickens up. Maybe he does more in Rochester.

[Campy]

I'm ok with him, and he may end up very good. He does like to carry the puck. I just see him as that #2-4 guy you rely on more for offense, and his size will be good for getting in the way, but I don't sense the love and instinct for regular contact. Zadorov is probably a #2-4 as well, but he will scare the bejebbuz out of you and guys will not wander in front of the net without thinking twice. It just seems to me that you either have that in you, or you don't. I remember playing street hockey at 12 and clutching, holding and lifting sticks, getting in front and position on a guy, hooking an inside knee along the boards with your shin....you just do it. You just want to make life miserable for the other person every last way. I see that in Zadarov and Weber god bless his soul when he isn't shellshocked, and McNabb in the past. I'm hoping Risto comes around as he thickens up. Maybe he does more in Rochester.

 

Yep. Giving a guy a little extra shove when battling along the boards, him knowing you'll be quick to play the body and get in his face at every opportunity. When I was a kid I had a coach who used to call it "Playing with an edge," and like you said, it's about being difficult to play against.

 

It's getting better with the Sabres, and I know some guys, like CoHo or Moulson, or Staff, etc, are not that type of guy - and that's okay. The problem is that there are too few guys on the roster who are..

[26CornerBlitz]

 

:thumbsup:

[Stoner]

J. Peterman catalog?

[WildCard]

J. Peterman catalog?

Likely, which means he paid for the rights for it from Cosmo

[TrueBlueGED]

First, I agree 100% on Chara and Bergeron. To be clear, though, those guys embody, IMHO, the elusive grit-skill combo that GoDD is referring to.

 

Second, you can prefer to watch flash, but you're not getting anywhere in the playoffs without heart. Malkin ain't winning a Cup without Crosby, and Kane ain't winning it without Toews (and Keith and Seabrook). The Sedins aren't going anywhere in the playoffs without Kesler.

 

Bottom line is that I think we can all agree that a true contender needs a number of top guys that have both. The grit function can't be delegated to the bottom 6 forwards -- that approach gets you a decent-to-good regular season and a first-round exit, as we saw in 2010 and 2011.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with your first couple points, although I do think Chara and Bergeron tilt more toward the skill portion of skill-grit scale than the guys Drane normally talks about (but that could be just me getting the wrong impression). That said, Malkin did win the Conn Smythe in the Pens' Cup year, so :nana:

 

As to your final point, I think it comes down to how we're going to define grit. How much grit did the Hawks, Pens and Wings have in their top-6 championship teams since the lost season? Somebody like Toews has a superb two-way game, but I guess I don't view him as "gritty", at least in what I'd consider the traditional sense of being physically imposing, and hitting, and things like that.

[dudacek]

Definitions do mess these discussions up some times.

 

Physically imposing isn't exactly the same as gritty and neither are exactly what Drane is talking about, at least to me.

I'd define "it" as battle, will to win, or — to borrow the buzzword of Darcy's last days — being relentlessly hard to play against.

 

Dan Carcillo is physical, and edgy, but he's not hard to play against because he has no skill and no smarts.

 

Toews, Forsberg, Crosby — Patty Lafontaine — none of these guys are physically imposing, but they are/were hard as hell to play against, especially when it matters most.

Drury and Briere had it, Pominville and Vanek (both of whom are excellent, first-line hockey players) did not.

 

I'd take a "gritty" team over a "tough" team any day of the week, but I'd take a smart, relentless team over both.

[Kristian]

Definitions do mess these discussions up some times.

 

Physically imposing isn't exactly the same as gritty to me.

I'd define gritty as battle, will to win, or — to borrow the buzzword of Darcy's last days — being relentlessly hard to play against.

 

Toews, Forsberg, Crosby — Patty Lafontaine — none of these guys are physically imposing, but they are/were gritty as hell.

Drury and Briere had it, Pominville and Vanek (both of whom are excellent, first-line hockey players) did not.

 

I'd take a "gritty" team over a "tough" team any day of the week.

 

Good post, though I disagree with Vanek.

 

He was parked in front of that net, getting crosschecked and high sticked night in and night out, deflecting pucks and getting to rebounds, and kept coming back for more. In my book, that's exactly what gritty is about.

 

I do however think he was unmotivated, both by not seeing eye-to-eye with Ruff, and also by the endless "non-direction" of the organisation, personified by Regier's inability to build a proper roster.

[dudacek]

 

 

Good post, though I disagree with Vanek.

 

He was parked in front of that net, getting crosschecked and high sticked night in and night out, deflecting pucks and getting to rebounds, and kept coming back for more. In my book, that's exactly what gritty is about.

 

I do however think he was unmotivated, both by not seeing eye-to-eye with Ruff, and also by the endless "non-direction" of the organisation, personified by Regier's inability to build a proper roster.

 

Yeah, I get what you are saying and was already modifying my post a bit because of it.

Vanek has a fair amount of grit, and has shown flashes of "it." but he hasn't shown he has "it" on any kind of consistent basis.

[bunomatic]

He definitely had grimace

[dudacek]

Teddy Nolan on grit:

“Everybody who plays in the National Hockey League has a certain level of talent. Not everybody has a certain level of grit. Grit is that perseverance when obstacles present themselves, you don’t stop pursuing your vision. It’s that grit factor that separates. We have to get to that level where we have people with some grit.”

[nucci]

Is "level of grit" going to replace " compete level" as the new phrase?

[Doohicksie]

I think you pay too much attention to words, nucci.