GAME DISCUSSION THREAD GDT: Buffalo at Philadelphia 11-21-13 at 7:00 PM EST

[Eleven]

No only unecessary, it was complete lunacy - No team ever managed succesful rebuild, flipping their entire roster over with youngsters and draft picks, no matter how high those might have been.

 

I've said it a million times, you need veterans to play the youngsters alongside. And our veterans are worthless.

 

There are some good import veterans (Ott, Moulson, Ehrhoff) and some not-so-good (Scott doesn't have skills, Leino is a shithead, etc.). The home-grown ones (Stafford, Flynn) are crappy for various reasons. Problem is, if they trade away Ott and Moulson, who's left? Just Ehrhoff?

 

I do like a couple of players who aren't really "veterans" but aren't too young anymore, either, like Hodgson and Ennis, but they're sophomores and the team needs some seniors.

[Kristian]

There are some good import veterans (Ott, Moulson, Ehrhoff) and some not-so-good (Scott doesn't have skills, Leino is a shithead, etc.). The home-grown ones (Stafford, Flynn) are crappy for various reasons. Problem is, if they trade away Ott and Moulson, who's left? Just Ehrhoff?

 

I do like a couple of players who aren't really "veterans" but aren't too young anymore, either, like Hodgson and Ennis, but they're sophomores and the team needs some seniors.

 

This team really could've used a guy like Brenden Morrow coming in last off-season and Regehr, Pommer and Vanek never should've been traded.

 

At this point they should do their best to keep both Ott and Moulson, simply because nobody else is left.

[Eleven]

This team really could've used a guy like Brenden Morrow coming in last off-season and Regehr, Pommer and Vanek never should've been traded.

 

At this point they should do their best to keep both Ott and Moulson, simply because nobody else is left.

 

Agree w/ most of it, but I don't mind the Vanek trade as much, with a real player coming back.

[sicknfla]

 

 

Agree w/ most of it, but I don't mind the Vanek trade as much, with a real player coming back.

 

I know we have beat this into the ground but Vanek should have been resigned or traded last year.

 

DR mismanaged this team in so many ways it's ridiculous. This thing is a mess. It is going to take time. I hate to place this all on one player but McDavid is the key. With him we are respectable in 2-3 years. Without this could go 4-5.

[Iron Crotch]

Crazy thought that will never happen... maybe Myers should be tried at wing.

 

On another note, one of the things that bothers Nolan is guys not finishing their checks. We have plenty of those on the roster.

[darksabre]

Crazy thought that will never happen... maybe Myers should be tried at wing.

 

On another note, one of the things that bothers Nolan is guys not finishing their checks. We have plenty of those on the roster.

 

Myers at wing is something I would love to see, if not just "for the lulz" as the kids are wont to say these days. And it makes sense. He loves carrying the puck. There aren't a lot of guys on this team who seem to enjoy that aspect of the game.

 

What do we have to lose, right? Just have some fun with this season.

[Derrico]

I know we have beat this into the ground but Vanek should have been resigned or traded last year.

 

DR mismanaged this team in so many ways it's ridiculous. This thing is a mess. It is going to take time. I hate to place this all on one player but McDavid is the key. With him we are respectable in 2-3 years. Without this could go 4-5.

 

I'm not a DR supporter, trust me. But Vanek didn't want to resign with us and I'm very doubtful we obtain more in a trade by moving him in the offseason than when we did. If Moulson can start putting up some points again then the deal is atleast as good as the Pommer trade and Pommer had another year left on his contract. Of all the things to bust DR about I don't think the Vanek trade is remotely close to one of those things.

[nfreeman]

And this always was my problem with the full tear-down. It was completely unnecessary.

No only unecessary, it was complete lunacy - No team ever managed succesful rebuild, flipping their entire roster over with youngsters and draft picks, no matter how high those might have been.

 

I've said it a million times, you need veterans to play the youngsters alongside. And our veterans are worthless.

This team really could've used a guy like Brenden Morrow coming in last off-season and Regehr, Pommer and Vanek never should've been traded.

 

At this point they should do their best to keep both Ott and Moulson, simply because nobody else is left.

I'm not a DR supporter, trust me. But Vanek didn't want to resign with us and I'm very doubtful we obtain more in a trade by moving him in the offseason than when we did. If Moulson can start putting up some points again then the deal is atleast as good as the Pommer trade and Pommer had another year left on his contract. Of all the things to bust DR about I don't think the Vanek trade is remotely close to one of those things.

 

I generally agree with all of this, including Derrico's take on Vanek. He wasn't going to re-sign here, even if the Sabres didn't stink this year.

 

I also caution you -- you're tempting fate in the form of a Robviously temper tantrum.

[sicknfla]

 

 

I'm not a DR supporter, trust me. But Vanek didn't want to resign with us and I'm very doubtful we obtain more in a trade by moving him in the offseason than when we did. If Moulson can start putting up some points again then the deal is atleast as good as the Pommer trade and Pommer had another year left on his contract. Of all the things to bust DR about I don't think the Vanek trade is remotely close to one of those things.

 

Trading Vanek last year allows us to draft the picks we received for him in 2013 instead of 2014. The 2013 draft was stronger and it gets the guys in the system a year earlier. No matter how you slice it the rebuild is prolonged a year. Trade him last March and you get your players in June 2013. So keeping him in your lineup for approx 20 games (April and October) cost you a year of rebuild. It was horrible asset management on DR's part. ESPECIALLY when he knew he didn't want to resign!!!

[LGR4GM]

Trading Vanek last year allows us to draft the picks we received for him in 2013 instead of 2014. The 2013 draft was stronger and it gets the guys in the system a year earlier. No matter how you slice it the rebuild is prolonged a year. Trade him last March and you get your players in June 2013. So keeping him in your lineup for approx 20 games (April and October) cost you a year of rebuild. It was horrible asset management on DR's part. ESPECIALLY when he knew he didn't want to resign!!!

I agree. I do believe that Vanek was injured right around the deadline last year and I think that impacted some of his trade value. That being said I think it is also becoming more clear that Vanek should have been traded before the deadline and Pominville should have been kept and resigned. Jason was exactly what we needed and his presence albeit soft spoken and calm was useful on the ice. Of course i don't think Pominville made a good captain but when your RW side is Pominville, Stafford and ???????????? You shouldn't go trading him. Darcy never worried about making a team he just was a hoarder of pieces

[sicknfla]

 

I agree. I do believe that Vanek was injured right around the deadline last year and I think that impacted some of his trade value. That being said I think it is also becoming more clear that Vanek should have been traded before the deadline and Pominville should have been kept and resigned. Jason was exactly what we needed and his presence albeit soft spoken and calm was useful on the ice. Of course i don't think Pominville made a good captain but when your RW side is Pominville, Stafford and ???????????? You shouldn't go trading him. Darcy never worried about making a team he just was a hoarder of pieces

 

I agree as well. Pominville was not a captain but he was a good Sabre. One of the few guys we have traded that I was sad to see go.

[Derrico]

Trading Vanek last year allows us to draft the picks we received for him in 2013 instead of 2014. The 2013 draft was stronger and it gets the guys in the system a year earlier. No matter how you slice it the rebuild is prolonged a year. Trade him last March and you get your players in June 2013. So keeping him in your lineup for approx 20 games (April and October) cost you a year of rebuild. It was horrible asset management on DR's part. ESPECIALLY when he knew he didn't want to resign!!!

 

Who knows if the Isles wanted to make that trade last deadline? As was already brought up he was playing hurt around that time of the year. I'm surprised we got as much as we did for Vanek and that includes whether he was traded then or now. Isles were a boarderline playoff team last year so they may not have been willing to give up a more guarenteed mid first round pick. They probably thought earlier this year that by adding Vanek they would shoot up the standings and it would be a later first rounder they were giving up. Again, of all the things I'm knocking Darcy on, I'm not touching the Vanek trade.

[Two or less]

Myers at wing is something I would love to see, if not just "for the lulz" as the kids are wont to say these days. And it makes sense. He loves carrying the puck. There aren't a lot of guys on this team who seem to enjoy that aspect of the game.

 

What do we have to lose, right? Just have some fun with this season.

 

His development.

 

As Pat LaFontaine has mentioned, one of the biggest regrets by the Islanders is giving up on Zdeno Chara too early on. I don't think the Sabres will. They'll give him every chance possible. The reward is greater then the risk IMO.

[LGR4GM]

His development.

 

As Pat LaFontaine has mentioned, one of the biggest regrets by the Islanders is giving up on Zdeno Chara too early on. I don't think the Sabres will. They'll give him every chance possible. The reward is greater then the risk IMO.

Minus his penalties I actually thought he played a decent game against Philly.

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

His development.

 

As Pat LaFontaine has mentioned, one of the biggest regrets by the Islanders is giving up on Zdeno Chara too early on. I don't think the Sabres will. They'll give him every chance possible. The reward is greater then the risk IMO.

This. Myers is certainly playing better than the past few seasons. Sure his contract may be way larger than warranted at this moment in time, but here's the beautiful thing. IT DOESN'T MATTER RIGHT NOW. If anything it'll help us reach the cap floor next year. There is absolutely no reason to move him right now when you look at it from a risk reward perspective. The kid is still young, he's still growing into his body, and we know he has a very high ceiling. Worst case scenario we have a middle of the road defensemen who is overpaid. we have an owner who can buy him out over the long term so it's really a non issue.

 

I still think he is going to be great. And theres really no reason at this moment in time to abandon that hope.

[Drunkard]

This. Myers is certainly playing better than the past few seasons. Sure his contract may be way larger than warranted at this moment in time, but here's the beautiful thing. IT DOESN'T MATTER RIGHT NOW. If anything it'll help us reach the cap floor next year. There is absolutely no reason to move him right now when you look at it from a risk reward perspective. The kid is still young, he's still growing into his body, and we know he has a very high ceiling. Worst case scenario we have a middle of the road defensemen who is overpaid. we have an owner who can buy him out over the long term so it's really a non issue.

 

I still think he is going to be great. And theres really no reason at this moment in time to abandon that hope.

 

I agree but I'd still be willing to move him if the offer was right. I keep seeing that Edmonton is willing to move it's #1 pick for a good defenseman. I think I'd move Myers for that and even toss in a 2nd round pick to boot. Then we can draft Reinhart and Ekblad and get to the cap floor by signing a couple of overpriced free agents. Hopefully one of them can be a defensively minded center that can show Girgensons the ropes until he develops.

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

I agree but I'd still be willing to move him if the offer was right. I keep seeing that Edmonton is willing to move it's #1 pick for a good defenseman. I think I'd move Myers for that and even toss in a 2nd round pick to boot. Then we can draft Reinhart and Ekblad and get to the cap floor by signing a couple of overpriced free agents. Hopefully one of them can be a defensively minded center that can show Girgensons the ropes until he develops.

Would Myers at this stage of his career given his current performance warrant that high of a first round pick? I don't believe it would. Even with the addition of a second rounder. I know i raised a question earlier on in the season, and that was would you be willing to trade Ristolainen for the Oilers first rounder?

[Iron Crotch]

The logic seems to go something like this: Chara is a tall defenseman. Myers is a tall defenseman. Therefore Myers will progress as Chara did.

 

It seems fairly ridiculous to me to compare players based only on height... Chara has always been a nasty, physical player, even when he was with the Isles. He was a stay-at-home guy at the beginning of his career who later developed an offensive game. Myers early on has more offensive game than Chara did and is a better skater, but is far less physical. ... I personally think it is hard to teach nastiness to someone (Myers) who just doesn't have a natural mean streak. I think we're all hoping that Myers gains 25 lbs. and just starts burying opposing players ala Chara... but I just don't see that mean streak in Myers. Chara is the son of a wrestler - it is in his DNA!

[sicknfla]

Oh what the hell. Myers, Weber, the NYI pick, and a #2 for Yak and the Oilers #1. I know Yak is a risk but so is Myers.

 

Then turn Moulson and Miller into 2 more #1's - maybe!! Start packaging up some of these and turning them into guys that can step in NOW!! Keep Ott.

 

 

[darksabre]

 

 

His development.

 

As Pat LaFontaine has mentioned, one of the biggest regrets by the Islanders is giving up on Zdeno Chara too early on. I don't think the Sabres will. They'll give him every chance possible. The reward is greater then the risk IMO.

 

It would be good for his development to have some fun and see the game from the forward position. Dustin Byfuglien has done both and he's turned out fine.

 

It wouldn't be permanent. Don't mistake it that way. I just think it would be fun for him.

[TrueBlueGED]

The logic seems to go something like this: Chara is a tall defenseman. Myers is a tall defenseman. Therefore Myers will progress as Chara did.

 

It seems fairly ridiculous to me to compare players based only on height... Chara has always been a nasty, physical player, even when he was with the Isles. He was a stay-at-home guy at the beginning of his career who later developed an offensive game. Myers early on has more offensive game than Chara did and is a better skater, but is far less physical. ... I personally think it is hard to teach nastiness to someone (Myers) who just doesn't have a natural mean streak. I think we're all hoping that Myers gains 25 lbs. and just starts burying opposing players ala Chara... but I just don't see that mean streak in Myers. Chara is the son of a wrestler - it is in his DNA!

 

I agree, and they should stop trying. I've been saying it since last season: Just let Myers fly and play to his offensive instincts, to hell with the tough defensive assignments. That's not what we thought we'd be getting from him at this point, but it's what we have, so may as well use it.

[Drunkard]

 

Would Myers at this stage of his career given his current performance warrant that high of a first round pick? I don't believe it would. Even with the addition of a second rounder. I know i raised a question earlier on in the season, and that was would you be willing to trade Ristolainen for the Oilers first rounder?

 

Myers has proven more than Ristolainen at this point but I would definitely make that deal, mostly because we'd still have Zadarov who I think will be even better once he develops.

[Robviously]

I generally agree with all of this, including Derrico's take on Vanek. He wasn't going to re-sign here, even if the Sabres didn't stink this year.

 

I also caution you -- you're tempting fate in the form of a Robviously temper tantrum.

It's nice that you think about me when I'm not around.

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

The logic seems to go something like this: Chara is a tall defenseman. Myers is a tall defenseman. Therefore Myers will progress as Chara did.

 

It seems fairly ridiculous to me to compare players based only on height... Chara has always been a nasty, physical player, even when he was with the Isles. He was a stay-at-home guy at the beginning of his career who later developed an offensive game. Myers early on has more offensive game than Chara did and is a better skater, but is far less physical. ... I personally think it is hard to teach nastiness to someone (Myers) who just doesn't have a natural mean streak. I think we're all hoping that Myers gains 25 lbs. and just starts burying opposing players ala Chara... but I just don't see that mean streak in Myers. Chara is the son of a wrestler - it is in his DNA!

I think that the parallel most people see, at least in terms of development, is simply body type. It's been noted that myers has trouble putting on muscle and that hes still growing into his body. The kid has talent. Im not excited about myers because i think he's going to become the most physical D man in the league, I'm excited because we have a defenseman with a huge reach, who is incredibly mobile and clearly has talents offensively. Physical play will probably come with someone of his size, but i dont expect a mean streak. I think giving up on a player who has his size and skating ability is just at the bottom of a list of projects we need to abandon. He has upside. Lets move on from leino and stafford and then we can see where we are with myers, but he is far from the biggest issue or liability on this team right now.