What if rebuilding through the draft doesn't work?

[Mike Oxhurtz]

So let me get this straight, all of the Sabres problems/mistakes when Goilsano & Quinn owned the team were caused by solely by Golisano & Quinn, not Regier? Now that Golisano & Quinn are gone, it's all Regier's fault now for the Sabres problems/mistakes? You must be a politician...

 

:worthy: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Bingo, we have a winner!!

[nfreeman]

Those two seasons were some completely forgettable hockey and the outcomes in those playoffs were a given, Vanek or not. There were people here (I wasn't one of them) that were calling for the rebuild to begin then, when our players values were at their highest. If only Darcy had listened.

 

Well, those teams certainly weren't as good as the 2005-07 teams, but I don't think those playoff series were either forgettable or a given. They were very close to beating Philly. Then they hid under the bed in game 7 and lost in embarrassing fashion.

 

Then they brought in Ehrhoff, Regehr and Leino in the offseason and started the next season 10-5. Then Lucic ran over Miller and no one bothered to lift a finger. And then everything fell apart.

[darksabre]

Well, those teams certainly weren't as good as the 2005-07 teams, but I don't think those playoff series were either forgettable or a given. They were very close to beating Philly. Then they hid under the bed in game 7 and lost in embarrassing fashion.

 

Then they brought in Ehrhoff, Regehr and Leino in the offseason and started the next season 10-5. Then Lucic ran over Miller and no one bothered to lift a finger. And then everything fell apart.

 

Getting knocked out in '07 really should have been the wake up call though. You could chalk 06 up to bad luck, but the 06-07 team was a juggernaut and they should have won it all. I wouldn't have known well enough to call for a rebuild then, but I know others did, and I think Darcy should have realized it too. Trying to add reinforcements to the husk of a team that was left after the '07 offseason was futile.

[nfreeman]

Getting knocked out in '07 really should have been the wake up call though. You could chalk 06 up to bad luck, but the 06-07 team was a juggernaut and they should have won it all. I wouldn't have known well enough to call for a rebuild then, but I know others did, and I think Darcy should have realized it too. Trying to add reinforcements to the husk of a team that was left after the '07 offseason was futile.

 

But they didn't add reinforcements after Black Sunday -- they just pretended they were good enough to withstand the losses of the co-captains and the then-upcoming loss of Soupy. They didn't do anything to address the heart loss until the summer of 2008, when they traded for Rivet. In a familiar refrain in the DR era, it was a day late and a dollar short.

[SwampD]

Well, those teams certainly weren't as good as the 2005-07 teams, but I don't think those playoff series were either forgettable or a given. They were very close to beating Philly. Then they hid under the bed in game 7 and lost in embarrassing fashion.

 

Then they brought in Ehrhoff, Regehr and Leino in the offseason and started the next season 10-5. Then Lucic ran over Miller and no one bothered to lift a finger. And then everything fell apart.

Were you really surprised when we lost either of those series?

[darksabre]

But they didn't add reinforcements after Black Sunday -- they just pretended they were good enough to withstand the losses of the co-captains and the then-upcoming loss of Soupy. They didn't do anything to address the heart loss until the summer of 2008, when they traded for Rivet. In a familiar refrain in the DR era, it was a day late and a dollar short.

 

I don't think it would have mattered if he had made any additions in 07 as opposed to 08. That team was dead in the water either way.

 

But you are absolutely correct about the last part. DR always seems to be just a little bit too far behind the curve. A GM that is cautious to a fault is not going to make the aggressive moves that he needs to at the times when those moves need to be made.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

Getting knocked out in '07 really should have been the wake up call though. You could chalk 06 up to bad luck, but the 06-07 team was a juggernaut and they should have won it all. I wouldn't have known well enough to call for a rebuild then, but I know others did, and I think Darcy should have realized it too. Trying to add reinforcements to the husk of a team that was left after the '07 offseason was futile.

 

They weren't a juggernaut. I had no faith in that team finishing the job. We saw one of Darcy's faulty philosophies then.....instead of valuing skill players with heart and grit, he figured he could put together a line of Mair, Kaleta and peters and all would be taken care of. Problem is, only 2 or 3 of the other guys had what it took for a prolonged playoff run.

 

Also....I will never forgive Regier for what he did going into that trade deadline. We had an opportunity to TRULY have the best placed team for the Cup. Gary Roberts was available for a pittance, and a guy like Bill Guerin was also out there. Darcy came out 3 days after Afinogenov had broken his wrist and was timetabled to return 2 weeks into the playoffs by the doctors in the long end, and when Connolly had yet to play a game all year, and stated that they would both be back in the regular season. WEASEL!!!!!! He could have traded for Roberts and Guerin, the type of guys who live for the playoffs, and still fit them under the cap with Afinogenov and Connolly legitimately long term injured. You then could have played them all in the playoffs with no cap.

 

That was the 1 thing that I will never forgive him for, and what makes me to this day call Darcy a WEASEL with clear conscious. He KNEW Briere and Drury would walk, and he couldn't bear to part with Stafford, Paille and MacArthur because he knew he needed live bodies to fill the roster the next year. This team would have probably won the whole thing...and there was no excuse to not at least grab Roberts for say Paille and a 2nd. Zubrus was fine, but similar to Kotalik in his game. No excuse.....and now we have THIS........

 

In hindsight it was obvious they were going to let the captains walk. It was a slimy move, that was predicated on a slimy move to handcuff himself at the deadline.

[darksabre]

They weren't a juggernaut. I had no faith in that team finishing the job. We saw one of Darcy's faulty philosophies then.....instead of valuing skill players with heart and grit, he figured he could put together a line of Mair, Kaleta and peters and all would be taken care of. Problem is, only 2 or 3 of the other guys had what it took for a prolonged playoff run.

 

Also....I will never forgive Regier for what he did going into that trade deadline. We had an opportunity to TRULY have the best placed team for the Cup. Gary Roberts was available for a pittance, and a guy like Bill Guerin was also out there. Darcy came out 3 days after Afinogenov had broken his wrist and was timetabled to return 2 weeks into the playoffs by the doctors in the long end, and when Connolly had yet to play a game all year, and stated that they would both be back in the regular season. WEASEL!!!!!! He could have traded for Roberts and Guerin, the type of guys who live for the playoffs, and still fit them under the cap with Afinogenov and Connolly legitimately long term injured. You then could have played them all in the playoffs with no cap.

 

That was the 1 thing that I will never forgive him for, and what makes me to this day call Darcy a WEASEL with clear conscious. He KNEW Briere and Drury would walk, and he couldn't bear to part with Stafford, Paille and MacArthur because he knew he needed live bodies to fill the roster the next year. This team would have probably won the whole thing...and there was no excuse to not at least grab Roberts for say Paille and a 2nd. Zubrus was fine, but similar to Kotalik in his game. No excuse.....and now we have THIS........

 

In hindsight it was obvious they were going to let the captains walk. It was a slimy move, that was predicated on a slimy move to handcuff himself at the deadline.

 

"We like the team we have" should go on his tombstone some day.

[DHawerchuk10]

Were you really surprised when we lost either of those series?

 

Yes on both accounts. Unless you are talking about from a Buffalo "whoa is me" perspective. From that view, nothing surprises me anymore.

[dEnnis the Menace]

"we have two of the top 20 centers in hockey" I believe is what he told us with Roy and Timmay. :doh:

[dudacek]

Anyone remember the 1980 Sabres?

Scotty Bowman traded Robert for Van boxmeer, then took the rest of Punch's team to second-place overall in the league and a semi-final loss against the eventual champion Islanders.

And then he proceeded to tear it down to rebuild for the future.

 

Over the next three years, dumped were core players like Schoenfeld, Gare, Martin, Edwards, Smith, Savard, Luce and McKegney.

 

In came a slew of high picks: McCourt (1st overall), Foligno (2nd) Barrasso (5), Housley (5), Cyr (9), Lacombe (10), Creighton (11), Andreychuk (16), Dudacek (17), Tucker (31), mike Anderson (26, Not Bo-mikael, - even I don't remember this guy), Hannu Virta (38), Jens Johansen (30) and Richard Hadju (34)

 

For those counting, that's 12 first and second rounders in three years, plus a pair of top two picks traded for while they were still puppies.

The Sabres missed the playoffs in 1986 and were dead last one year later.

[nfreeman]

Were you really surprised when we lost either of those series?

 

No, but I think mostly because of my Buffalo sports fan emotional baggage, plus the utterly heartless play of the previous 2 seasons.

 

They weren't a juggernaut. I had no faith in that team finishing the job. We saw one of Darcy's faulty philosophies then.....instead of valuing skill players with heart and grit, he figured he could put together a line of Mair, Kaleta and peters and all would be taken care of. Problem is, only 2 or 3 of the other guys had what it took for a prolonged playoff run.

 

Also....I will never forgive Regier for what he did going into that trade deadline. We had an opportunity to TRULY have the best placed team for the Cup. Gary Roberts was available for a pittance, and a guy like Bill Guerin was also out there. Darcy came out 3 days after Afinogenov had broken his wrist and was timetabled to return 2 weeks into the playoffs by the doctors in the long end, and when Connolly had yet to play a game all year, and stated that they would both be back in the regular season. WEASEL!!!!!! He could have traded for Roberts and Guerin, the type of guys who live for the playoffs, and still fit them under the cap with Afinogenov and Connolly legitimately long term injured. You then could have played them all in the playoffs with no cap.

 

That was the 1 thing that I will never forgive him for, and what makes me to this day call Darcy a WEASEL with clear conscious. He KNEW Briere and Drury would walk, and he couldn't bear to part with Stafford, Paille and MacArthur because he knew he needed live bodies to fill the roster the next year. This team would have probably won the whole thing...and there was no excuse to not at least grab Roberts for say Paille and a 2nd. Zubrus was fine, but similar to Kotalik in his game. No excuse.....and now we have THIS........

 

In hindsight it was obvious they were going to let the captains walk. It was a slimy move, that was predicated on a slimy move to handcuff himself at the deadline.

 

1. Getting Zubie was a legit move.

 

2. The cap space wasn't relevant in their calculations -- it was TG/LQ's instructions not to lose money. Taking on $2MM+ in new costs for Guerin and his ilk was not in the budget.

 

Anyone remember the 1980 Sabres?

Scotty Bowman traded Robert for Van boxmeer, then took the rest of Punch's team to second-place overall in the league and a semi-final loss against the eventual champion Islanders.

And then he proceeded to tear it down to rebuild for the future.

 

Over the next three years, dumped were core players like Schoenfeld, Gare, Martin, Edwards, Smith, Savard, Luce and McKegney.

 

In came a slew of high picks: McCourt (1st overall), Foligno (2nd) Barrasso (5), Housley (5), Cyr (9), Lacombe (10), Creighton (11), Andreychuk (16), Dudacek (17), Tucker (31), mike Anderson (26, Not Bo-mikael, - even I don't remember this guy), Hannu Virta (38), Jens Johansen (30) and Richard Hadju (34)

 

For those counting, that's 12 first and second rounders in three years, plus a pair of top two picks traded for while they were still puppies.

The Sabres missed the playoffs in 1986 and were dead last one year later.

 

I will never forgive Scotty for trading Rico, Gare and Schoeny.

[Weave]

That was the 1 thing that I will never forgive him for, and what makes me to this day call Darcy a WEASEL with clear conscious. He KNEW Briere and Drury would walk, and he couldn't bear to part with Stafford, Paille and MacArthur because he knew he needed live bodies to fill the roster the next year. This team would have probably won the whole thing...and there was no excuse to not at least grab Roberts for say Paille and a 2nd. Zubrus was fine, but similar to Kotalik in his game. No excuse.....and now we have THIS........

 

I believe the bolded part was likely true. If nothing else it sure was very plausible.

 

 

2. The cap space wasn't relevant in their calculations -- it was TG/LQ's instructions not to lose money. Taking on $2MM+ in new costs for Guerin and his ilk was not in the budget.

 

And this strikes me as true at the time as well.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Anyone remember the 1980 Sabres?

Scotty Bowman traded Robert for Van boxmeer, then took the rest of Punch's team to second-place overall in the league and a semi-final loss against the eventual champion Islanders.

And then he proceeded to tear it down to rebuild for the future.

 

Over the next three years, dumped were core players like Schoenfeld, Gare, Martin, Edwards, Smith, Savard, Luce and McKegney.

 

In came a slew of high picks: McCourt (1st overall), Foligno (2nd) Barrasso (5), Housley (5), Cyr (9), Lacombe (10), Creighton (11), Andreychuk (16), Dudacek (17), Tucker (31), mike Anderson (26, Not Bo-mikael, - even I don't remember this guy), Hannu Virta (38), Jens Johansen (30) and Richard Hadju (34)

 

For those counting, that's 12 first and second rounders in three years, plus a pair of top two picks traded for while they were still puppies.

The Sabres missed the playoffs in 1986 and were dead last one year later.

 

I remember it well.

 

A tear down will not work if the players brought in are not as good as the ones dumped.

 

One of the best coaches ever in the NHL, with more cups then any other coach, IIRC. Was a terrible GM. Great guy and coach ... terrible GM.

[Robviously]

So let me get this straight, all of the Sabres problems/mistakes when Goilsano & Quinn owned the team were caused by solely by Golisano & Quinn, not Regier? Now that Golisano & Quinn are gone, it's all Regier's fault now for the Sabres problems/mistakes? You must be a politician...

I'd say your ability to completely (and intentionally) distort what I'm saying to make a point qualifies you for political office.

 

There are plenty of reasons to criticize Regier both before and after Pegula took over, but Black Sunday is not one of them. I know reality is unwelcome when you're having a temper tantrum though.

[dudacek]

 

A tear down will not work if the players brought in are not as good as the ones dumped.

 

That's why we need a new coach and GM.

Otherwise, all this suffering will be for nothing.

[Jerry Jabber]

I'd say your ability to completely (and intentionally) distort what I'm saying to make a point qualifies you for political office.

 

There are plenty of reasons to criticize Regier both before and after Pegula took over, but Black Sunday is not one of them. I know reality is unwelcome when you're having a temper tantrum though.

 

Temper tantrum? Talk about distortion… Is it Bush's fault still that the economy is still in the gutter?

 

Whether it was Regier's fault, Golisano's fault and/or Quinn's fault, Black Sunday was all their fault. If one or all knew that Drury and Briere were going to leave at the end of the season, then they should have done much more to find suitable replacements. Failing to address the losses of their two co-captians which one happened to be their leading scorer [briere] was complete stupidity, which resulted in the Sabres going from winning the President's Trophy winner & 2 consecutive Eastern Conference finals, to missing the playoffs the following two years.

[nfreeman]

Here's another way of looking at the OP: why is there any reason to believe rebuilding through the draft WILL work?

 

In particular, how many instances can someone point to of a team amassing a large quantity of high draft picks over a 3-year period -- when one of those picks is NOT a generational talent like Crosby -- and having it turn into a perennially contending team?

 

I think the most likely outcome of this "strategy" is that the Sabres end up with the #2 pick this year and the #3 pick next year and get 2 very good players -- but anything beyond that will require a major overhaul of the front office and quite a few other interrelated moves to be made correctly.

[Stoner]

I remember it well.

 

A tear down will not work if the players brought in are not as good as the ones dumped.

 

One of the best coaches ever in the NHL, with more cups then any other coach, IIRC. Was a terrible GM. Great guy and coach ... terrible GM.

 

How terrible would you be if you seeded an expansion team with Barrasso in goal, Housley on defense and Andreychuk up front?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

2. The cap space wasn't relevant in their calculations -- it was TG/LQ's instructions not to lose money. Taking on $2MM+ in new costs for Guerin and his ilk was not in the budget.

 

 

He still came out with a straight face and weaseled to the fans.

 

And any spreadsheet artist worth a salt could have convinced Golisano. "Tom...we get these 2 guys and we probably win the whole thing...at least make it to the finals. Sure, it's an extra $2 million in salary, but if you get even 3 Stanley Cup home games, that's 60,000 seats at an average ticket of $135. That's 4x your money back right there. You already know it's now or never because we aren't going to be able to afford Drury and Briere next year."

 

Freaking clueless weasel.....

 

[dudacek]

Here's another way of looking at the OP: why is there any reason to believe rebuilding through the draft WILL work?

 

In particular, how many instances can someone point to of a team amassing a large quantity of high draft picks over a 3-year period -- when one of those picks is NOT a generational talent like Crosby -- and having it turn into a perennially contending team?

 

I think the most likely outcome of this "strategy" is that the Sabres end up with the #2 pick this year and the #3 pick next year and get 2 very good players -- but anything beyond that will require a major overhaul of the front office and quite a few other interrelated moves to be made correctly.

You could say the current Blackhawks is one, certainly the '90s Avs, maybe the current Avs - if you look at the teams that have been a consistent powerhouse they all have a core group of top talent, all about the same age, that they grabbed when they were young.

And the best way to do get those players is to pick at the top of the draft.

But there is no guarantee you'll get a Stamkos or a Toews instead of a Yashin or Phillips.

And sometimes you have to get lucky and grab an Alfredsson late.

[Robviously]

Temper tantrum? Talk about distortion… Is it Bush's fault still that the economy is still in the gutter?

Yes, I can see you're taking a rational, even-handed approach, as evidenced by your random, Tourettes-like political outburst.

 

Whether it was Regier's fault, Golisano's fault and/or Quinn's fault, Black Sunday was all their fault. If one or all knew that Drury and Briere were going to leave at the end of the season, then they should have done much more to find suitable replacements.

Yes, I can see how it was Regier's fault he fought to re-sign both (and actually got Drury to agree to an extension before the Sabres pulled it) before being swatted down by his boss (Quinn) and the team owner (Golisano). All equally at fault there. Clearly.

 

Failing to address the losses of their two co-captians which one happened to be their leading scorer [briere] was complete stupidity, which resulted in the Sabres going from winning the President's Trophy winner & 2 consecutive Eastern Conference finals, to missing the playoffs the following two years.

Congrats on being the first Sabres fan to ever express the notion that the Sabres never recovered from Black Sunday. Hasn't come up around here even once in the past 6 years.

[nfreeman]

You could say the current Blackhawks is one, certainly the '90s Avs, maybe the current Avs - if you look at the teams that have been a consistent powerhouse they all have a core group of top talent, all about the same age, that they grabbed when they were young.

And the best way to do get those players is to pick at the top of the draft.

But there is no guarantee you'll get a Stamkos or a Toews instead of a Yashin or Phillips.

And sometimes you have to get lucky and grab an Alfredsson late.

 

The Hawks are a good example, but they stunk for such a loooooooong time. And Toews/Kane are not generational talents individually like Crosby is, but as a tandem they are pretty close.

 

In any case your point about Yashin and Phillips is what I had in mind.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Then it doesn't work. The best approach, of course, is to tank really bad for a few seasons and get the top player in the draft consecutive years as the Pens did.

[darksabre]

Then it doesn't work. The best approach, of course, is to tank really bad for a few seasons and get the top player in the draft consecutive years as the Pens did.

 

But that doesn't guarantee the Pens win the Cup every year either. The Pens method isn't the only tank method.