Taro T Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 OK....I'm getting sick of this "e the rebuild" stuff. Ted Black tries to allude to the fact that the Sabres have a solid plan by stockpiling draft picks in the 1st 2 rounds over a period of years....BECAUSE...the Montreal Canadiens did so in the early 70's. Those draft picks in a vacuum are just fine....however, cementing a losing culture and feeding young players to the wolves in the midst of that losing culture while under the control of the same GM that has cemented that losing culture is about as disgusting as it comes. Yes...Montreal drafted some really great players with all those draft picks. Lets look at the FACTS 1)In the 15 seasons prior to those draft picks, MONTREAL HAD WON 9 STANLEY CUPS!!!! Yes, you read that correctly. While the Buffalo Sabres are pimping a plan as foolproof, the same organization that has visited the finals ONCE in the previous 15 seasons under the current GM who has the team out of the gate to 1 win in 10 games, the Canadiens were TRULY Hockey Heaven. 9 Cups in 15 years. 2)The Canadiens WON the Stanley Cup the year that they started stockpiling those high draft picks. Yes....you read that correctly. While Ted will tell you that those picks were being stockpiled, what he doesn't tell you is that they were the Stanley Cup Champions as they stockpiled those picks. That's a far cry from zero playoff series wins in 7 years and missing the playoffs while being at or near the league lead in player spending, then starting a season 1-8-1. Montreal ALSO won the Cup in 1973 3)There were 14 teams in the league in 1971 and 18 in 1975. As those picks were being made...WHILE winning a Cup, there were half as many teams, thus making the impact of the talent at those picks twice as likely to be top level, if we are to subscribe to the numbers others have posted here about the draft slot and NHL impact. Of those 21 picks.....19 of them would be 1st round picks in the current draft. 9 picks were in the top 10 of the draft. Again...winning Stanley Cups in 1971 and 1973 as this process was happening. It just disgusts me that this is the support for the "plan" the Sabres seem to be selling. And you know what? This has Darcy written all over it. I'm willing to wager Mr. Black a dinner that Darcy was the one who brought this information to Mr. Pegula and himself. It is the type of disingenuous spreadsheet mining that Darcy has done over the years to deflect failure. Mr. Black doesn't have to answer this, but he will read it, and he will see. I just felt the need to say this since the discussion is going on in multiple threads. Couple of other interesting (IMHO) points about Pollock's drafting. Draft age was 20, so teams knew better what they were drafting. 1970 was the 1st year Moe-ray-all couldn't automatically get the top 2 French draftees. Good thing Bert and Rico were born in the '50's rather than '49. Pollock not only stocked up on picks by trading over the hillers, he'd also send decent players to teams he didn't already control the pick of to make sure they didn't finish with a better pick than his. For all of the similarities of 1971 to 2014, they might as well also have a strategy of owning the best junior team in Canada like teams tried to do in the '50's.
Robviously Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 Also assuming they don't wind up with any additional 1st round picks that find their way into the lottery. Any pick they acquire is fairly likely to be from a playoff team, but it is still very possible they get the pick from a team who winds up missing the playoffs. Also sort of implies that not finishing with the no.1 overall pick is a total disaster. The second or third overall pick should really help you too.
Taro T Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 Also sort of implies that not finishing with the no.1 overall pick is a total disaster. The second or third overall pick should really help you too. Well, if McDavid does turn into the next Crosby, getting the next Ryan could be viewed as a 'disaster.'
That Aud Smell Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 " ... but when it comes down to it...we really blow and our only hope is that we get lucky on a few lottery tickets and maybe start to get good 4 years from now." this really got me laughing.
dudacek Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 How do you get elite players: 1) trades if you are lucky (see Zdeno Chara and Cam Neely) 2) late rounds picks if you are lucky (see Red Wings, Detroit) 3) free agents, if you want to overpay for an established star, and can convince him to come here, knowing full well his best years are behind him. 4) picking at the top end of the draft. Its been 20 years since we got lucky with Hasek. It's been a generation since we tried option four, which is clearly not perfect, but just as clearly the most effective option. I'm OK with trying that the next two years. I just hope that right after he shakes Sam Reinhart's hand, Darcy gets the boot and the task of getting Connor McDavid and surrounding him with the right people is given to somebody new.
Derrico Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 Good stuff - thanks. I'm trying to group those guys, based on what I can recall and readily find via hockeydb and such. I think it's a 75% rate of success (9 of 12), with 7 of 12 being top-end players for a long period of time. Great/Elite Vinny Lecaviler D Sedin H Sedin Danny Heatly Marion Gaborik IIya Kovalchuk Jason Spetza Solid Top-6 Forward/Top 4 D-Man David Legwand Brad Stuart Decent/Marginal NHL Player Patrik Stephan Rick Dipietro Bust Alexander Svitov Ya you're probably looking at about a 50% chance of having a star player for hopefully the next decade and a 75% chance of having atleast a good NHLer. I'm not saying this tank job is or is not the best course of action, I'm just saying if and a big if they do suck big time for the next three years then this team should add some good/great players to the new core. Of course there are several alternatives to the tank job but this is the one that has obviously been chosen. The key is now to stick with it. I don't want any moves out of desperation that gives them the 6th or 7th pick instead of the top 3. Cheering against them is no fun but I would be very happy with a 12 win season.
North Buffalo Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 Ted is a mouth piece searching for straws and like any mouth piece that is still learning his product, he is prone to gaffs when the guys that are supposedly in this case "hockey knowledgeabe" are imbeciles. Ted can only do so much with the hand he is dealt.... Darcy. Which is why he describes a model, he is looking to put the best foot forward even when it doesn't fit the situation. Ted is not the problem, Darcy is.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted October 21, 2013 Author Report Posted October 21, 2013 Ted is a mouth piece searching for straws and like any mouth piece that is still learning his product, he is prone to gaffs when the guys that are supposedly in this case "hockey knowledgeabe" are imbeciles. Ted can only do so much with the hand he is dealt.... Darcy. Which is why he describes a model, he is looking to put the best foot forward even when it doesn't fit the situation. Ted is not the problem, Darcy is. That's what I'm trying to say.... Who do you think brought forward the 1970's Habs? I bet it wasn't Ted. For all of the similarities of 1971 to 2014, they might as well also have a strategy of owning the best junior team in Canada like teams tried to do in the '50's. They already do!
Taro T Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 That's what I'm trying to say.... Who do you think brought forward the 1970's Habs? I bet it wasn't Ted. They already do! :lol:
Weave Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 Who is this Jason Spetza guy that was a top pick? And does he like his pitza NY style or Chicago style?
I am Defecting Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 Pardon my ignorance, but is it against NHL rules to tank a season on purpose. Maybe the pertinent question is if it could be considered match fixing. If we were to trade Vanek and Miller, would the Sabres be at greater risk of being accused of tanking on purpose, or match fixing? Are we keeping Vanek and Miller to avoid this accusation? Inquiring minds want to know. Also, when Ted Black says that he is a recovering lawyer, what does he mean by that?
SwampD Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 Pardon my ignorance, but is it against NHL rules to tank a season on purpose. Maybe the pertinent question is if it could be considered match fixing. If we were to trade Vanek and Miller, would the Sabres be at greater risk of being accused of tanking on purpose, or match fixing? Are we keeping Vanek and Miller to avoid this accusation? Inquiring minds want to know. Also, when Ted Black says that he is a recovering lawyer, what does he mean by that? I honestly have been thinking about this. I don't know and they really need to shut up and at least pretend they are trying to win this year.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted October 21, 2013 Author Report Posted October 21, 2013 I honestly have been thinking about this. I don't know and they really need to shut up and at least pretend they are trying to win this year. Good point.... If someone came out after a horserace and said..."Yeah....we had no intention of trying to win this race. I told the jock to choke up on him the whole way around so he'd eventually give up and spit the bit. We want to do it for a few more races so by the time he's cranked up to win, the public will ignore him and we can bet him at 60-1"..... I would GO TO JAIL!!!!!!!
JJFIVEOH Posted October 21, 2013 Report Posted October 21, 2013 Did I miss some sort of press conference or interview?
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted October 22, 2013 Author Report Posted October 22, 2013 Did I miss some sort of press conference or interview? I think there was one where the owner said "The sole reason for existence of the Buffalo Sabres is to win multiple Stanley Cups....and we plan on doing it within 3 years". In all honesty, I have a tendency to consume copious amounts of alcoholic beverages from time to time....so I could have imagined it.....
JJFIVEOH Posted October 22, 2013 Report Posted October 22, 2013 I think there was one where the owner said "The sole reason for existence of the Buffalo Sabres is to win multiple Stanley Cups....and we plan on doing it within 3 years". In all honesty, I have a tendency to consume copious amounts of alcoholic beverages from time to time....so I could have imagined it..... Ah OK. I thought this was about something that happened today. You may have been drunk, but you didn't imagine that part. :P
I am Defecting Posted October 22, 2013 Report Posted October 22, 2013 I'm wondering if the FBI gives a poop. Maybe match fixing is considered more of a European problem. That's more of a job for Brit 007, swooping in to embarrass the Americans, make love to our women, and take our glory, and laugh at our ignorance. Maybe its a KGB problem, and SuperSpy Putin can write an op-ed about it in the NY Times, sealing the KHL fates of Grigorenko and Yakupov and Zadorov. I adorov Zadorov, he might say. Play for Petersburg. KHL is less corrupt. FBI? What? What? Where'd he go? Where did he go? Nah, they only said they were tanking on purpose. No big whoop. It's just like the '71 Canadiens. If I worked for the FBI, I would be pissed off at the Sabres' front office right now.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted October 22, 2013 Author Report Posted October 22, 2013 Ah OK. I thought this was about something that happened today. You may have been drunk, but you didn't imagine that part. :P Nah....on GR the other day, Black was touting the fact the Sabres were collecting all these picks, then pointed out the team to do it the most was Montreal in the early 70's. I can't see Ted searching out that information on his own. For some strange reason....I feel it was presented to Mr. Pegula. Also conveniently left out were the other occasions in the modern era where picks were accumulated....such as Regier did himself.
rakish Posted October 22, 2013 Report Posted October 22, 2013 I'm wondering if the FBI gives a poop. Maybe match fixing is considered more of a European problem. That's more of a job for Brit 007, swooping in to embarrass the Americans, make love to our women, and take our glory, and laugh at our ignorance. Maybe its a KGB problem, and SuperSpy Putin can write an op-ed about it in the NY Times, sealing the KHL fates of Grigorenko and Yakupov and Zadorov. I adorov Zadorov, he might say. Play for Petersburg. KHL is less corrupt. FBI? What? What? Where'd he go? Where did he go? Nah, they only said they were tanking on purpose. No big whoop. It's just like the '71 Canadiens. If I worked for the FBI, I would be pissed off at the Sabres' front office right now. There's notihing illegal about match fixing, unless you are gambling on it. It would have been a problem for wrestling all these years. The NBA had some court testimony about the refs fixing a Portland - LA playoff series that NBC wanted to go one way. Personally, I am convinced Nascar isn't on the up and up.
bunomatic Posted October 22, 2013 Report Posted October 22, 2013 Its more a case of running your franchise/brand into the ground than match fixing. And like RC said above unless you're gambling on it. The Sabres owner/management are gambling that losing/sukcing will bring its own reward down the road.
Derrico Posted October 22, 2013 Report Posted October 22, 2013 I was unaware the nba was taken to court over something like that.
Stoner Posted October 22, 2013 Report Posted October 22, 2013 Also, when Ted Black says that he is a recovering lawyer, what does he mean by that? He is a lawyer but no longer practices. I think he's implying that it's a dishonorable trade.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted October 22, 2013 Author Report Posted October 22, 2013 He is a lawyer but no longer practices. I think he's implying that it's a dishonorable trade. It's a tough position to be in. Your instinct is to live in a bubble of denial and protect your client, even if your head and your heart tell you otherwise. I don't envy it. I have pity actually. Recovering is the key description......not recovered. I see it yet again today. How awesome would it be if these guys actually had competent people on the job who could focus on dominating instead of evading?
rakish Posted October 22, 2013 Report Posted October 22, 2013 I was unaware the nba was taken to court over something like that. The NBA wasn't taken to court. My memory was that a ref was in with gamblers, and was point shaving, and got caught. During the trial the ref testified that fixing games wasn't unheard of from the management side. but no one cared since the NBA can fix their games if they want. Also, many people don't believe the ref, but as I remember it, the NBA didn't contest the testimony.
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