GAME DISCUSSION THREAD GDT: Vancouver at Buffalo 10-17-13 at 7:00 PM

[Iron Crotch]

Miller should be extra motivated to play for the scouts in the building tonight!

[26CornerBlitz]

RR after the Morning Skate: http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/?id=461320

[That Aud Smell]

Grigs skating with Scott and McCormick. Oh goody.

 

playing him on a 4th line is one thing, but playing him with guys like scott and mccormick is whole 'nother thing. and it makes no sense -- at all.

 

Grigs against a bunch of fourth liners; it might not be a bad thing.

 

If Scott and McCormick can't create space for Grigs to work his magic, and if grigs can't capitalize off of their hard work then maybe it time to send Grigs back to the AHL.

 

Grigs should be able to out play a fourth liner that has questionable skills.

 

i take a different view. grigorenko (who of course can't go to the ahl) is playing with 4th liners, who likely can't do the things that are needed to showcase his skill set. and if the past is prelude, other teams' 4th liners, who are lunch bucket guys who play with heart and soul, routinely out-hustle and out-compete grigorenko.

[hockeyhound]

playing him on a 4th line is one thing, but playing him with guys like scott and mccormick is whole 'nother thing. and it makes no sense -- at all.

 

 

 

i take a different view. grigorenko (who of course can't go to the ahl) is playing with 4th liners, who likely can't do the things that are needed to showcase his skill set. and if the past is prelude, other teams' 4th liners, who are lunch bucket guys who play with heart and soul, routinely out-hustle and out-compete grigorenko.

 

Isn't that what they are trying to get Grigorenko to do?

 

I see it is Grigs being sent to the AHL without the demotion.

 

Grigs has brought this on himself; if this is a rebuilding year, and Grigs is not competing or hustling, and though it maybe painful, Grigs has to learn some how.

 

The Sabres top six should be carrying the offensive load, not a developing 19yr old.

 

I am sure some one will respond that it is such a waste to put such a talented guy on the fourth line.

 

O.k. where is the talent, it certainly not on the score board, and God knows he has been given a chance on the 1st and second lines.

 

RR is right, the kid is not competing at the level he should.

 

All the skill in the world is useless if you don't compete, and what about the observation that "other teams' 4th liners, who are lunch bucket guys who play with heart and soul, routinely out-hustle and out-compete grigorenko." ?

 

I look at it like this, the difference between the Sabres and many of the teams in the league is that heart and soul, compete and hustle runs through lines one through four on most teams and the only thing that separates the fourth line heart and soul guy from a first line heart and soul guy is that the first liner has a greater skill set.

 

Personally I think guys like Crosby, Malkin, Sadin's, etc. hustle and compete and hustle at a much higher level then most fourth liners.

 

If Scott and McCormick can establish a consistent fore-check and hold the puck long enough to dish it off to Grigs, then Grigs should be able to work his magic.

 

The whole idea that Grigs being put on the fourth line IMO is over blown, and really doesn't carry a lot of weight.

 

Until Grigs figures out how to play the way Enniss, Stafford, and Foligno did the other night, then he is certainly destined for the AHL at the first available opportunity.

[TrueBlueGED]

Isn't that what they are trying to get Grigorenko to do?

 

I see it is Grigs being sent to the AHL without the demotion.

 

Grigs has brought this on himself; if this is a rebuilding year, and Grigs is not competing or hustling, and though it maybe painful, Grigs has to learn some how.

 

The Sabres top six should be carrying the offensive load, not a developing 19yr old.

 

I am sure some one will respond that it is such a waste to put such a talented guy on the fourth line.

 

O.k. where is the talent, it certainly not on the score board, and God knows he has been given a chance on the 1st and second lines.

 

RR is right, the kid is not competing at the level he should.

 

All the skill in the world is useless if you don't compete, and what about the observation that "other teams' 4th liners, who are lunch bucket guys who play with heart and soul, routinely out-hustle and out-compete grigorenko." ?

 

I look at it like this, the difference between the Sabres and many of the teams in the league is that heart and soul, compete and hustle runs through lines one through four on most teams and the only thing that separates the fourth line heart and soul guy from a first line heart and soul guy is that the first liner has a greater skill set.

 

Personally I think guys like Crosby, Malkin, Sadin's, etc. hustle and compete and hustle at a much higher level then most fourth liners.

 

If Scott and McCormick can establish a consistent fore-check and hold the puck long enough to dish it off to Grigs, then Grigs should be able to work his magic.

 

The whole idea that Grigs being put on the fourth line IMO is over blown, and really doesn't carry a lot of weight.

 

Until Grigs figures out how to play the way Enniss, Stafford, and Foligno did the other night, then he is certainly destined for the AHL at the first available opportunity.

 

1) The Sabres top six can barely carry their own jocks right now, let alone the offensive load. Seriously, we have 11 goals in 8 games...why shouldn't we use our skill players to help develop another skill player? It's not like the offense will get worse.

 

2) Recent research suggests that quality of teammate (ie. the players someone actually skates with) matters more for player production than anything else, be it competition, zone starts, coach, whatever.

 

3) There is absolutely nothing to suggest Scott or McCormick have an ounce of puck possession ability. This whole thing about "making space for Grigs to do his thing" is a fallacy.

 

4) Grigs best traits are his passing and vision...even if Scott and McCormick could open up space, who in the hell on that line is going to finish his passes and convert them to goals?

[LGR4GM]

O.k. where is the talent, it certainly not on the score board, and God knows he has been given a chance on the 1st and second lines.

 

Until Grigs figures out how to play the way Enniss, Stafford, and Foligno did the other night, then he is certainly destined for the AHL at the first available opportunity.

Just two things, Grigorenko has been given a chance on the 1st and 2nd lines when? I don't think he goes the AHL next season. I think they keep him up and keep working him at the NHL level now. Whether we like it or not Grigorenko will be staying.

[hockeyhound]

1) The Sabres top six can barely carry their own jocks right now, let alone the offensive load. Seriously, we have 11 goals in 8 games...why shouldn't we use our skill players to help develop another skill player? It's not like the offense will get worse.

 

2) Recent research suggests that quality of teammate (ie. the players someone actually skates with) matters more for player production than anything else, be it competition, zone starts, coach, whatever.

 

3) There is absolutely nothing to suggest Scott or McCormick have an ounce of puck possession ability. This whole thing about "making space for Grigs to do his thing" is a fallacy.

 

4) Grigs best traits are his passing and vision...even if Scott and McCormick could open up space, who in the hell on that line is going to finish his passes and convert them to goals?

 

Great point; however, our top six has not been competing and hustling but, our bottom six have, and compete and hustle is what Grigs needs to learn.

 

I am not saying that your points are invalid, and if the top six were competing and hustling then I think you are exactly right; however, at this point the top six haven't been able to teach Grigs what he needs to know.

 

Regarding the puck possession issue; it was just a couple games ago when the Scott line had the best down low puck possession game of the season by any line the Sabers had put out up to that point.

 

It was an amazing shift.

 

My thought was not that Grigs is dishing to Scott and McCormick but that Scott and McCormick retrieve pucks and dish to Grigs and then let him go one on one with the other teams fourth line guy.

 

Yes it maybe a little unorthodox; however, when other things don't seem to be working then maybe its time to get creative.

[That Aud Smell]

I see it is Grigs being sent to the AHL without the demotion.

 

I get this. Fair enough.

 

O.k. where is the talent, it certainly not on the score board, and God knows he has been given a chance on the 1st and second lines.

 

it's that same distinction you're making: you may have talent, but if you don't play with urgency and energy, it won't show.

 

 

 

Personally I think guys like Crosby, Malkin, Sadin's, etc. hustle and compete and hustle at a much higher level then most fourth liners.

 

Or at least at an equal level, and their talent separates them from the 4th liners.

[Dannepanne]

One game with Scott and Mccormick isn't going too ruin him... He will probably get some time on a more potent line later in the game (after a few pucks behind miller).

[LGR4GM]

Okay am I wrong when I say Mikhail Grigorenko has been playing on the 3rd line this season?

[TrueBlueGED]

Great point; however, our top six has not been competing and hustling but, our bottom six have, and compete and hustle is what Grigs needs to learn.

 

I am not saying that your points are invalid, and if the top six were competing and hustling then I think you are exactly right; however, at this point the top six haven't been able to teach Grigs what he needs to know.

 

Regarding the puck possession issue; it was just a couple games ago when the Scott line had the best down low puck possession game of the season by any line the Sabers had put out up to that point.

 

It was an amazing shift.

 

I just disagree that 4th liners' effort level will rub off on Grigorenko. I think if he's with some offensive players and puts up a few points, his confidence level will grow and from that you'll see a more engaged player.

 

Regarding puck possession, McCormick's relative Corsi is -24.5 and Scott's is -25.4, 3rd and 2nd worst on the team, respectively--better than only Ristolainen.

[kishoph]

Just two things, Grigorenko has been given a chance on the 1st and 2nd lines when? I don't think he goes the AHL next season. I think they keep him up and keep working him at the NHL level now. Whether we like it or not Grigorenko will be staying.

 

I thought the same thing, he may have been given an occasional shift here and there, but that is not what I would call "given a chance on the 1st and 2nd lines." I think it'd be pretty hard to develop any kind of chemistry in three 1 minute shifts. I would try to let him center the 2nd line and move Foligno or Ennis up to the 1st line and bring Ott down to the 3rd. Removing Ott from the 1st line is not gonna hurt the teams 1 goal a game average, but it sure might help it, if you get another "scorer" on there.

[LGR4GM]

I thought the same thing, he may have been given an occasional shift here and there, but that is not what I would call "given a chance on the 1st and 2nd lines." I think it'd be pretty hard to develop any kind of chemistry in three 1 minute shifts. I would try to let him center the 2nd line and move Foligno or Ennis up to the 1st line and bring Ott down to the 3rd. Removing Ott from the 1st line is not gonna hurt the teams 1 goal a game average, but it sure might help it, if you get another "scorer" on there.

Yea or give the 3rd line of Girgensons - Girgorenko - Flynn more minutes and see how the cope with it. I actually thought that line looked more like a 2nd line than our actual second line. Grigs was even starting to show signs of life before the stupid benching and subsequent demotion of stupidity that scores a 9.9 on the wtf rolston scale.

[hockeyhound]

Okay am I wrong when I say Mikhail Grigorenko has been playing on the 3rd line this season?

I just disagree that 4th liners' effort level will rub off on Grigorenko. I think if he's with some offensive players and puts up a few points, his confidence level will grow and from that you'll see a more engaged player.

 

Regarding puck possession, McCormick's relative Corsi is -24.5 and Scott's is -25.4, 3rd and 2nd worst on the team, respectively--better than only Ristolainen.

 

I apologize, you are all right; however, how do you solve the problem.

 

I must have missed it but I thought even though Grigs was on the first or second line roster position, he was still getting intermediate shifts with the first and second line. I am pretty sure RR was rotating Grigs into those lines during the previous games; however, maybe I am completely wrong.

 

They must be seeing something that they can exploit; I don't think they are putting Grigs on the 4th line just because, RR seems to be way to analytical to make a decision based on emotional bias.

 

Would you agree that the difference between the Sabres and many of the teams in the league is that heart and soul, compete and hustle runs through lines one through four on most teams and the only thing that separates the fourth line heart and soul guy from a first line heart and soul guy is that the first liner has a greater skill set?

 

If the top six are not competing then what do they have to offer?

 

Good passing, down low puck possession, tick tac toe passing plays, creativity...I get it; however, you have to agree none of this has been a part of the top six.

 

I wouldn't want to be in RR's shoes, and I am sure that there are some days when he rethinks his decision of taking the job.

 

Either way I like what I see out of the current top six players and it seems to me that things are turning around.

 

By the way, my thought was not that Grigs is dishing to Scott and McCormick but that Scott and McCormick retrieve pucks and dish to Grigs and then let him go one on one with the other teams fourth line guy.

 

Yes it maybe a little unorthodox; however, when other things don't seem to be working then maybe its time to get creative.

 

Let's Go Buffalo!

[TrueBlueGED]

I thought the same thing, he may have been given an occasional shift here and there, but that is not what I would call "given a chance on the 1st and 2nd lines." I think it'd be pretty hard to develop any kind of chemistry in three 1 minute shifts. I would try to let him center the 2nd line and move Foligno or Ennis up to the 1st line and bring Ott down to the 3rd. Removing Ott from the 1st line is not gonna hurt the teams 1 goal a game average, but it sure might help it, if you get another "scorer" on there.

 

This is basically how I feel. I understand that people want players to earn their spots, particularly younger players who haven't proven anything, I get that, I really do. But what exactly is the downside here? The team has a single win in eight games, via shootout no less, and is averaging barely above one goal per game all while losing the puck posession battle in hilariously lopsided fashion. Let's say the entire locker room becomes angry that a kid didn't "earn" his ice time (as if half the roster earns it anyway) and gets alienated...do things get worse? Can they? Meanwhile, the upside is you might get your best prospect (and arguably most talented offensive player not named Vanek) some traction and confidence. I'm not saying he will start producing, but isn't it worth a shot?

[LGR4GM]

This is basically how I feel. I understand that people want players to earn their spots, particularly younger players who haven't proven anything, I get that, I really do. But what exactly is the downside here? The team has a single win in eight games, via shootout no less, and is averaging barely above one goal per game all while losing the puck posession battle in hilariously lopsided fashion. Let's say the entire locker room becomes angry that a kid didn't "earn" his ice time (as if half the roster earns it anyway) and gets alienated...do things get worse? Can they? Meanwhile, the upside is you might get your best prospect (and arguably most talented offensive player not named Vanek) some traction and confidence. I'm not saying he will start producing, but isn't it worth a shot?

Yes exactly why it doesn't make sense. For instance with Risto I get what they were doing. They sat him so he could get some perspective than they put him back in the same role the next game. They even gave him some PP time. Mikhail is the like the bastard son where he has a bad shift and he gets benched and demoted. My issue was the game he played in previously he looked pretty damn good (compared to previous) and I was hoping it would be a spring board. Instead he gets benched again. Red Headed Step Child much?

[hockeyhound]

This is basically how I feel. I understand that people want players to earn their spots, particularly younger players who haven't proven anything, I get that, I really do. But what exactly is the downside here? The team has a single win in eight games, via shootout no less, and is averaging barely above one goal per game all while losing the puck possession battle in hilariously lopsided fashion. Let's say the entire locker room becomes angry that a kid didn't "earn" his ice time (as if half the roster earns it anyway) and gets alienated...do things get worse? Can they? Meanwhile, the upside is you might get your best prospect (and arguably most talented offensive player not named Vanek) some traction and confidence. I'm not saying he will start producing, but isn't it worth a shot?

 

I think you are right in wanting to put Grigs with the skill guys; however, if the Enniss, Foligno, Stafford line continue to build off of their last game, and Vanek, Hodgson, and Ott continue to be consistent, would you want to upset those lines to start a new experiment?

 

Ott has played a crucial role game in and game out as being a puck retriever, and on most nights it has paid off even though Vanek and Hodgson haven't buried their chances. Ott vs Grigs in the long run, Grigs wins every time; however, Grigs hasn't demonstrated the kind of hustle Ott brings which seems to be exactly what the they need out of their first line winger.

 

I would love to see Grigs replace Ott but, I think it only sticks when Grigs can show the kind of hustle and compete needed to execute plays on that line.

 

Yes exactly why it doesn't make sense. For instance with Risto I get what they were doing. They sat him so he could get some perspective than they put him back in the same role the next game. They even gave him some PP time. Mikhail is the like the bastard son where he has a bad shift and he gets benched and demoted. My issue was the game he played in previously he looked pretty damn good (compared to previous) and I was hoping it would be a spring board. Instead he gets benched again. Red Headed Step Child much?

 

Do you think RR is that petty?

 

RR seems way to deliberate, and he looks to be a guy who carefully looks at all the angles; I just think it will all work out for the good of Grigs.

 

After all we don't see what is going on behind the scene; we really have a limited scope of things.

[Wyldnwoody44]

This GDT turned into the Grigo thread lol.....I say what the hell, why not give him first line minutes for a game or two, its not like this team is lighting it up on either end of the game. Secondly, I don't see the sabres winning tonight, mostly because ill be there, but secondly because the canucks seem to be a pretty solid team, and torts will prolly have them playing a sound defensive game, which does not bode well with our anemic offense.

[dudacek]

I think Grigo on the the fourth line is stupidity, and I was shocked when Rolston benched him after what I thought was perhaps his best effort of the season in his last game.

 

That said, of Rolston's core mandates is establishing that hard to play against mentality.

Grigo has consistently been the least hard Sabre to play against.

It would be hypocritical to play him anyway.

It's not just about building Grigorenko, it's about building a team.

 

II don't think Rolston has handled this perfectly. But, thanks to the CBA, it's a tough line to walk.

[LGR4GM]

Do you think RR is that petty?

 

RR seems way to deliberate, and he looks to be a guy who carefully looks at all the angles; I just think it will all work out for the good of Grigs.

 

After all we don't see what is going on behind the scene; we really have a limited scope of things.

I honestly do not know what Ron Rolston is yet. He seems smart and clever but I have to doubt every member of this organization because they have lost my trust in their ability to have a long term plan and execute it.

 

In other news, Grigorenko Girgensons is skating with a full face mask and will not play tonight. He is expected to play against Colorado Saturday.

[26CornerBlitz]

I honestly do not know what Ron Rolston is yet. He seems smart and clever but I have to doubt every member of this organization because they have lost my trust in their ability to have a long term plan and execute it.

 

In other news, Grigorenko is skating with a full face mask and will not play tonight. He is expected to play against Colorado Saturday.

 

Of course you mean Girgensons.

[Weave]

Grigs against a bunch of fourth liners; it might not be a bad thing.

 

If Scott and McCormick can't create space for Grigs to work his magic, and if grigs can't capitalize off of their hard work then maybe it time to send Grigs back to the AHL.

 

Grigs should be able to out play a fourth liner that has questionable skills.

 

Oh no you di'nt!!!

[wjag]

Hey Carp, where's the charts? We could actually see a flat line..

[hockeyhound]

Oh no you di'nt!!!

 

I don't know :w00t: I am just trying to enjoy some hockey talk this afternoon.

 

It's been fun.

 

Let's Go Buffalo!

 

This GDT turned into the Grigo thread lol.....I say what the hell, why not give him first line minutes for a game or two, its not like this team is lighting it up on either end of the game. Secondly, I don't see the sabres winning tonight, mostly because ill be there, but secondly because the canucks seem to be a pretty solid team, and torts will prolly have them playing a sound defensive game, which does not bode well with our anemic offense.

 

Have fun at the game; I still have to wait until they play the Kings on their west coast trip.

 

I think Grigo on the the fourth line is stupidity, and I was shocked when Rolston benched him after what I thought was perhaps his best effort of the season in his last game.

 

That said, of Rolston's core mandates is establishing that hard to play against mentality.

Grigo has consistently been the least hard Sabre to play against.

It would be hypocritical to play him anyway.

It's not just about building Grigorenko, it's about building a team.

 

II don't think Rolston has handled this perfectly. But, thanks to the CBA, it's a tough line to walk.

 

Good point regarding the mandate.

[LGR4GM]

Of course you mean Girgensons.

lol maaaaaaayyybbeeee