Worst team in Franchise History

[bunomatic]

If you're firmly on the "tank, fire Darcy, fire Ron" bandwagon, you should prepare yourself for the middle of November. We have Boston tonight, then a relatively weak four game slate (Florida, Tampa, Dallas, New York Rangers). But then there's an absolutely brutal stretch that we may not get a single point out of: Ducks, Sharks, Kings, Ducks, Kings, Leafs, Leafs, Blues, (Flyers are next and weak), Wings, Habs, Leafs, (Devils are weak). We may not get five points out of the month of November.

 

Wow. Just wow. Thats an epic stretch of games.

[...]

 

He coulda got 6.

 

Word up.

[sicknfla]

If you're firmly on the "tank, fire Darcy, fire Ron" bandwagon, you should prepare yourself for the middle of November. We have Boston tonight, then a relatively weak four game slate (Florida, Tampa, Dallas, New York Rangers). But then there's an absolutely brutal stretch that we may not get a single point out of: Ducks, Sharks, Kings, Ducks, Kings, Leafs, Leafs, Blues, (Flyers are next and weak), Wings, Habs, Leafs, (Devils are weak). We may not get five points out of the month of November.

 

Over that 18 game stretch I can see, AT BEST, 4-10-4. That would put us 5-18-5 with 15 pts in 28 games. Still don't think neither will be fired.

[That Aud Smell]

Pegula *probably* nixed a couple deals because he said he wants Miller to retire here? Holy leap of logic batman. The team has an asset, what the hell are they supposed to say, that they are trying to dump him? Pegula and everyone else involved making Miller seem invaluable to the team is the rational thing to do, even if they are trying to move him.

You think Terry's that sharp?

C'mon. The guy negotiated a deal that involved a Dutch concern paying him almost $5 billion dollars.

 

Have you ever done business with the Dutch? I have. Them motherfookers are as shrewd and cunning as they come -- there's a reason they were out in front when it came to new world exploration and such.

 

He may be botching a lot of things as owner, but it's safe to presume that he's sharp enough to do what's necessary to maintain the value of a business asset.

You're going to have to explain Darcy still being here, the notion Darcy's done nothing wrong, Terry's ignorance of the team being for sale in 2002, his comment to the News that the newspaper was partly to blame for the team "quitting," his request that if only they had something nice to say, it could help the cause, and so on. Ya know, hockey IQ.

I'll take a run at reconciling all o' that. But I gotta run now.

 

Looking at this in the morning light.

 

If I understand you: You're referencing the familiar laundry list of gripes with Pegula and inferring from them that he's incapable of handling a business asset (Miller's contract) in a manner that helps maintain or even improve its value. I'm also getting the sense that you think that (or at least would have people think you think that) Pegula's a naive buffoon who more or less trips over his own d!ck whenever he walks into the F'N Center.

 

And you say "ya know, hockey IQ", but the reality is that the handling of business assets is a skill that transfers from one industry to another -- whether it's a favorable supplier agreement, a bunch of gas well leases, or an employment agreement with a key employee. The idea that a guy, who took some Dutchmen for a deal that paid $4.7B, couldn't have hatched a plan behind closed doors to the effect of "Ya know, I really like Miller, he's a consummate pro, and he's great for the team's identity and our brand in the league, but I get the sense that maybe he won't want to stay here no matter what we offer him, so I'm just going to keep telling whoever asks, 'We want him here, we want him to retire a Sabre, we think he's a world-class goalie and one of the team's all-time greats, but the decision on whether to stay in Buffalo is really going to be as much if not more Ryan's than it is ours" is silly.

 

Also, your issues are taken below in turn:

 

Darcy still being here: The fact that he's loyal to a fault with his people isn't inconsistent with his ability to treat a business asset in a way that maintains its value.

 

Terry's ignorance of the team being for sale in 2002: I still don't get this one at all. Who the hell knows why the Sabres were off his radar at that point in time. We've been through this on the board. I've had times in my life when the Sabres weren't as important as they have been during others, and I've never built a billion dollar energy empire. Besides, I have no idea how this is supposed to suggest that he can't play a simple game of horse-trading with business assets.

 

the notion Darcy's done nothing wrong: Pegula's pretty clearly a proud guy, even a bit arrogant. He's also committed to his principles (whatever they may be) -- to the point of being stubborn. Those characteristics are causing problems in other areas, but, again, I don't see how they're destined to ###### up the handling of Miller's value.

 

his comment to the News that the newspaper was partly to blame for the team "quitting", his request that if only they had something nice to say, it could help the cause: And you forgot the nonsense about saying "My daughter's working to become a pro tennis team. If I said nothing but negative things to her ..." This one remains a weird one, and it's probably the closest you'll come to supporting your position that Pegula's a bit of a simpleton. I'm not sure what to make of this lien of talk that we get from him. I guess it ties in with the whole "Where's Perreault?" weepiness. Early on, there was a lot of unfiltered emotion affecting the way he interacted with his franchise. I think that's been walked back some, although not entirely. He still takes things sorta personally when it comes to the franchise, its players, its alumni, and its employees. But, again, I do not understand how that would be inconsistent with an ability to take an honest view of Miller's situation -- any such view would require the owner to acknowledge that the team may have to be prepared to move on and get what value it can from what remains of Miller's deal.

 

Whew.

 

I will add this: We will be in the darkest days yet if Miller walks in July 2014, the Sabres get nothing (or little (like a 7th rounder in June)) for him, and it comes to light that Pegula's hanging onto a vain hope of re-signing him was a factor in the same.

[Claude_Verret]

It still amazes me how people can take anything athletes, coaches, owners, GM's etc say and draw even a little insight as to what is actually happening on a daily basis with the team. But to then even take it further and spin these snippets you hear now and then in an attempt to discern what actually makes these guys tick is nuts.

[IKnowPhysics]

It still amazes me how people can take anything athletes, coaches, owners, GM's etc say and draw even a little insight as to what is actually happening on a daily basis with the team. But to then even take it further and spin these snippets you hear now and then in an attempt to discern what actually makes these guys tick is nuts.

 

Welcome to the, our, internet.

[Hoss]

Over that 18 game stretch I can see, AT BEST, 4-10-4. That would put us 5-18-5 with 15 pts in 28 games. Still don't think neither will be fired.

 

I honestly think we'll be somewhere around 10 points at the end of November. Something like 4-21-3 which leaves us with 11 in 28. But I'm also so pessimistic that I could see them stealing a couple games and ending up with something like 6-16-6 and making their way to another late top 10 pick.

[Stoner]

It still amazes me how people can take anything athletes, coaches, owners, GM's etc say and draw even a little insight as to what is actually happening on a daily basis with the team. But to then even take it further and spin these snippets you hear now and then in an attempt to discern what actually makes these guys tick is nuts.

 

You're right. We're not in for suffering.

[Stoner]

Also, Claude, there's this: yours is a solid position, but are you prepared to be consistent? You can't possibly believe Terry really loves the Sabres and Perreault — they were just words, after all. And all that stuff about the reason for existence? Again, just words. They mean nothing. To attach any meaning to them would be amateur psychoanalysis.

Edited October 23, 2013 by PASabreFan

[Claude_Verret]

You're right. We're not in for suffering.

 

Did you need Darcy to tell you that this season would involve suffering, or are you really not that sharp? See how that works?

 

Also, Claude, there's this: yours is a solid position, but are you prepared to be consistent? You can't possibly believe Terry really loves the Sabres and Perreault — they were just words, after all. And all that stuff about the reason for existence? Again, just words. They mean nothing. To attach any meaning to them would be amateur psychoanalysis.

 

The difference being I was talking about when these guys speak about things regarding the team and its day to day operations and using that information to somehow know what is going on in reality behind the scenes. Usually they are talking to local media types looking for a gotcha moment, so naturally they are going to be guarded and spewing cliches most of the time.

[That Aud Smell]

Did you need Darcy to tell you that this season would involve suffering, or are you really not that sharp? See how that works?

 

 

 

The difference being I was talking about when these guys speak about things regarding the team and its day to day operations and using that information to somehow know what is going on in reality behind the scenes. Usually they are talking to local media types looking for a gotcha moment, so naturally they are going to be guarded and spewing cliches most of the time.

 

[papazoid]

just got home from game....that was god awful.

 

Zadorov only bright spot. even without the goal, he played a good game.

[Rico7]

Does anyone seriously want to still argue that this team is not the worst in franchise history? They are well on their way to the worst in NHL history

[ALF]

Terry has the will and enough money to get it right. The quick fixes when he bought the team didn't work . Now he is rebuilding from scratch with youth. I do feel bad for season ticket holders, hope Terry can ease that pain .

[nobody]

You have to be bad to get the top picks. Normally I would say you need to play your young guys more to make sure you keep losing but maybe that is why they are still playing the current 'core'.

 

Last season was a perfect opportunity to be really bad and not infuriate the fan base too much since it was a short season. They should have been able to get one of the top picks but blew that opportunity.

[JHeinz4727]

There are definitely plenty of examples of teams who have gotten back to back #1's in the draft:

 

Montreal: 68-69: Michael Plasse, Rejean Houle

Islanders: 71-71: Guy Lafleur, Billy Haris

Quebec: 89-91: Mats Sundin, Owen Nolan, Eric Lindros

Ottawa: 95-96: Bryan Berard, Chris Phillips

Oilers: 2010-2012: Hall, Hopkins, Yakupov

 

So it is definitely possible/do-able, I guess the only questions are

 

1) Is this team that bad

-They seem to be

 

2) Can they sustain it for next year

-If they continue to be this bad this year, they'll trade Miller and Vanek, so they'll be even worse

 

3) Are the number one picks good enough to win with

-I don't know the success of the teams listed above, as far as getting consecutive number one picks, and I can't judge the Oilers yet as it hasn't been that long

 

 

 

http://www.nhl.com/i...ge.htm?id=31886

 

Side question, I know Rolston was brought in initially because he was the coach of the Amerks, and kept on because he has done work in rookie development, but does anyone else suspect Darcy kept him on in part/also because he figured he'd lead a team to a first? Besides Perreault, Turgeon (the latter of which I know nothing about) Buffalo has never had a number one pick, and we've only picked in the top 5 a handful of times including those. At some point, you have to suck enough to become good through the draft, and it seems the only thing the Sabres have ever been the best at is being just good enough to never improve, and bad enough to be illicit some sort of hope that dies come May

 

 

I'm starting to lean that way also, which is depressing considering the excitement that came with him his Calder year.

So, assuming Myers doesn't pan out (which I think is likely), do we trade him or are we incompetent enough to keep him for an absurd contract for years, watch him struggle, then lose him for nothing after paying him like he's an All-Star? Hopefully not, but this is Buffalo.

 

Assuming we trade him, and Vanek and Miller, and we get back to back firsts, (if not, at least top-threes), we should be looking at a top-four team, right?

 

The draft is a little more easy to predict as the talent is mapped out for months, but the trades for Vank/Miller/Myers are a little more iffy, and they could lend some pleasent surprises. We appear to have some stock, some pretty deep pockets actually, and the next three years could be exciting, building wise that is.

Myers is so Terrible, Just plain Bad, God awful, that we trade him. I understand the emotion due to frustration, However, who the heck wants to trade good quality players for him. I mean come on people, use your head

[Claude_Verret]

You have to be bad to get the top picks. Normally I would say you need to play your young guys more to make sure you keep losing but maybe that is why they are still playing the current 'core'.

 

Last season was a perfect opportunity to be really bad and not infuriate the fan base too much since it was a short season. They should have been able to get one of the top picks but blew that opportunity.

 

But those wins built character for the young guys!

[Drunkard]

But those wins built character for the young guys!

 

You forgot to add the momentum that those few meaningless win manage to carry over all the way from late March and early April all the way to the following October.

[IKnowPhysics]

Worst in franchise history?

 

Best in franchise history at getting top picks.

[weehawk]

2 cents on the tanking debate. No pro team is going to voluntarily tank the remainder of a season for the sake of their current team. These are pro athletes who are about money first and titles second. Now, if you're a smart pro that wants both money AND championships, the LAST thing you're going to do is be a part of a concerted (and likely obvious) effort to tank any portion of a season for the benefit of your "current" team. Besides, the draft lottery has basically killed the notion of tanking. If I was a pro, I'd immediatelty ask for a trade if my coach/GM even suggested that we tank for the sake of a pick.

 

Part two

 

Darcy; has to go...NOW. The team cant possibly look any worse and TP has to be viewed as a really out-of-touch owner by keeping him on. The team is risking serious attendance (and revenue) issues next year if they dont make an effort to turn this around now. Simply telling Buffaloians to suffer is not going to work for the Sabres. It works for the Bills for some reason, but I've seen HSBC Arena half empty in the past. Joe Crozier was calling me begging me to renew my STs in 05-06 (I think it was). There's going to be some more begging next year.

[TrueBlueGED]

Just going to drop this little nugget here...

Corey Pronman ‏@coreypronman14h

Replacement level... the point where an NHL team is about a very good AHL team... is roughly 50-52 points. Buffalo's walking that line.

[darksabre]

Just going to drop this little nugget here...

 

Corey Pronman ‏@coreypronman14h

Replacement level... the point where an NHL team is about a very good AHL team... is roughly 50-52 points. Buffalo's walking that line.

 

I just really wish we could shed some dead weight and give this team to the kids.

[Claude_Verret]

If I may speak again for the pro "tank" faction of the board. I don't believe any of us think the team at any level is asking their coach and players to go out and lose games on purpose for the sake of a high draft pick, although so far it certainly may appear that way. Rather, instead of putting the team in the best situation to succeed they have chosen to put them in a very likely to not fare so well situation.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

If I may speak again for the pro "tank" faction of the board. I don't believe any of us think the team at any level is asking their coach and players to go out and lose games on purpose for the sake of a high draft pick, although so far it certainly may appear that way. Rather, instead of putting the team in the best situation to succeed they have chosen to put them in a very likely to not fare so well situation.

 

But your team president has said that is the plan. Your GM said to prepare to suffer.

 

Can you imagine what it is like to be in that locker room right now? Who in their right mind with more than a handful of NHL games in them is going to want to go out there and risk their bodies for a team that won't even get them the support to try and win? Thankfully Miller is on the verge of free agency and it's an Olympic year. He's being a good soldier. Can you imagine what his post game pressers would be like if he was on year 2 of a 6 year contract? We could take out the windmills from the shore from the amount of air power his WTF Waves would have generated by now.

 

It's only a matter of a month or so before the kids even stop trying. The know they have secure jobs because the team doesn't care about getting better. How in the world are these guys expected to progress when you signal to them it's Mickey mouse time, and you give no incentive for the guys who actually have a backbone to go out there and give everything they have? Sooner than later, guys will start going for individual stats. Who cares if we lose 7-3 and Hodgson is a -37....Cody is going to want those 30 goals come hell or high water.

 

As more and more national guys get comfortable taking shots at the franchise, hopefully Pegula wakes up.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Ghost of Dwight Drane

[dudacek]

 

 

But your team president has said that is the plan. Your GM said to prepare to suffer.

 

Can you imagine what it is like to be in that locker room right now? Who in their right mind with more than a handful of NHL games in them is going to want to go out there and risk their bodies for a team that won't even get them the support to try and win? Thankfully Miller is on the verge of free agency and it's an Olympic year. He's being a good soldier. Can you imagine what his post game pressers would be like if he was on year 2 of a 6 year contract? We could take out the windmills from the shore from the amount of air power his WTF Waves would have generated by now.

 

It's only a matter of a month or so before the kids even stop trying. The know they have secure jobs because the team doesn't care about getting better. How in the world are these guys expected to progress when you signal to them it's Mickey mouse time, and you give no incentive for the guys who actually have a backbone to go out there and give everything they have? Sooner than later, guys will start going for individual stats. Who cares if we lose 7-3 and Hodgson is a -37....Cody is going to want those 30 goals come hell or high water.

 

As more and more national guys get comfortable taking shots at the franchise, hopefully Pegula wakes up.

 

This is exactly what is on the verge of happening and exactly why a message needs to be sent.