Vanek speculation on CBC's HNIC

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

This is stupid. I mean...we got Slava Kozlov for 60 games in return for Hasek.......this kind of stuff never happens......

[TrueBlueGED]

This is stupid. I mean...we got Slava Kozlov for 60 games in return for Hasek.......this kind of stuff never happens......

 

I know that you know it's not the same situation.

[krt88]

Minnesota doesn't have a lot of wiggle room with their salary cap.

[Hoss]

Minnesota doesn't have a lot of wiggle room with their salary cap.

 

Read the other posts in this thread. They will when it matters in the offseason. They'll have almost $15 mill available after Heatley and a bunch of smaller contracts come off the books (not counting a huge raise in the cap potentially). And they don't really have any free agents that they'll have to spend much money on.

[waldo]

No veteran will want to come to a rebuilding team unless he will be over compensated. Vanek has value but not much as Darcy thinks. He hung on him too long. The fire sale (Gerbe, Sekera, Roy, Pominville, Regehr, and Leopold) over the past 2 years should have included all assets of any value. This team has the feel of an expansion franchise with a few decent vets. The question is would you rather have a mediocre veteran team or a rebuilding team based on youth and a ton of losses. Long seasons ahead. 3 years away from being a playoff contender.

 

3 years ,,,lol...oh my

[HopefulFuture]

Read the other posts in this thread. They will when it matters in the offseason. They'll have almost $15 mill available after Heatley and a bunch of smaller contracts come off the books (not counting a huge raise in the cap potentially). And they don't really have any free agents that they'll have to spend much money on.

 

I don't doubt they'll have some of that 15 mil. You cannot say with a certainty that 70 mil will be the cap ceiling as I cannot say it will not be. But I'm not looking at merely next season. I'm considering the follow up years to that as well. Vanek, Pomers, Parise, Suter while seemingly a good core to build around will take up an overwhelming amount of cap space. See the Pittsburg Penguins for how that works out. Just saying, it's more likely to go that route then the other if history is any indicator.

 

3 years ,,,lol...oh my

 

My sentiments exactly waldo. I'm looking at 5 years, if we get lucky and some of this youth pans out while we inject young, all star talent from the top of the next few draft classes in. My fingers are crossed.

[Robviously]

3 years ,,,lol...oh my

The Blackhawks went from 1st overall pick to Stanley Cup Champion in 3 years.

 

I don't think it's crazy to think the Sabres will be a playoff team again in 3 years.

[deluca67]

The Blackhawks went from 1st overall pick to Stanley Cup Champion in 3 years.

 

I don't think it's crazy to think the Sabres will be a playoff team again in 3 years.

There was a huge difference between the Blackhawks then and the Sabres now, Darcy Regier wasn't the GM of the Blackhawks. It's difficult enough to turn a franchise around with a competent GM. Having Regier is going to make it tougher and means a longer turn around time.

[LGR4GM]

Yeah. Two big ones. It happens often but it makes no sense in team management. Get something in return. DR knew he was going the rebuild route early last season. His value had to be higher with most of two years left under contract. The longer he waits the less he gets.

We should discuss this idea. Honestly what happens is starting after last seasons trade deadline through 2 weeks before this trade deadline, you are correct and values plummet down down down. There is a spike at the draft and just prior to free agency but then values return low. Now at around 2 weeks prior to the current NHL trade deadline, teams with legitimate cup hopes and teams who are dreamers start to gamble the future on the now. Vanek and even Miller's value again begin to go upwards.

 

Right now we are in the declining value period and it should hit bottom probably around december. Then starting in January and heading into the deadline the value of players creeps up and up.

 

Should DR have traded Vanek and Miller last year or this summer? Yes, I believe he should have. However now he has to wait because value is currently not there. January to March is when value will again be added to these players.

[bunomatic]

We should discuss this idea. Honestly what happens is starting after last seasons trade deadline through 2 weeks before this trade deadline, you are correct and values plummet down down down. There is a spike at the draft and just prior to free agency but then values return low. Now at around 2 weeks prior to the current NHL trade deadline, teams with legitimate cup hopes and teams who are dreamers start to gamble the future on the now. Vanek and even Miller's value again begin to go upwards.

 

Right now we are in the declining value period and it should hit bottom probably around december. Then starting in January and heading into the deadline the value of players creeps up and up.

 

Should DR have traded Vanek and Miller last year or this summer? Yes, I believe he should have. However now he has to wait because value is currently not there. January to March is when value will again be added to these players.

 

Makes sense. My fear is unforeseen injuries at the crucial time for maximum return which would be devastating. Also Darcy, based on past history, may be caught with his pants down while waiting for the market to set itself instead of being proactive and setting the market .

[waldo]

The Blackhawks went from 1st overall pick to Stanley Cup Champion in 3 years.

 

I don't think it's crazy to think the Sabres will be a playoff team again in 3 years.

 

only a few million differences in the rosters ..they went ten years without a playoff appearence and won less than 40 games in eight of them.i assume they drafted pretty high in most of those shi--ty years) a pretty long rebuild huh ..is that what you want here... if you think you draft at 1 and then win,your crazy. you better have the other ten guys you need in place, skilled, mature and ready to go and playing the right system.....in those Chicago lean years ,take a look at their rosters..(98-2008) nothing like the Sabres now without Vanek and Miller.. they had tons of 25 and above first round picks during that periods... they had 7 top eight picks and one 1st pick .he a great player but .that 1st and 3rd is not what put them over the top.

[LGR4GM]

Makes sense. My fear is unforeseen injuries at the crucial time for maximum return which would be devastating. Also Darcy, based on past history, may be caught with his pants down while waiting for the market to set itself instead of being proactive and setting the market .

Agreed which is why I love the idea of firing Regier and bringing in a guy like Jason Botterill with maybe La Fontaine as his Assistant or something along those lines.

[Robviously]

only a few million differences in the rosters ..they went ten years without a playoff appearence and won less than 40 games in eight of them.i assume they drafted pretty high in most of those shi--ty years) a pretty long rebuild huh ..is that what you want here... if you think you draft at 1 and then win,your crazy. you better have the other ten guys you need in place, skilled, mature and ready to go and playing the right system.....in those Chicago lean years ,take a look at their rosters..(98-2008) nothing like the Sabres now without Vanek and Miller.. they had tons of 25 and above first round picks during that periods... they had 7 top eight picks and one 1st pick .he a great player but .that 1st and 3rd is not what put them over the top.

You "assume" they drafted high? Why not just look it up before posting a long rant comprised entirely of sentence fragments and bizarre punctuation?

 

Here, I'll do the research you didn't. This is their draft history:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005218.html

 

2007: Drafted Kane 1st overall. They have have a combined 10 NHL games out of the other guys they took that year.

2006: Toews 3rd overall. No one else from that draft class has played an NHL game.

2005: Their first pick was Jack Skille at 7th overall. He's a superstar, right? The only contributor they got that year was Hjalmarsson (4th round pick).

2004: They took Cam Barker 3rd overall. He spent time in the AHL last year. They did find Bolland and Bickell in the 2nd round, but those are role players.

2003: The legendary draft year. They got Seabrook 14th overall and Corey Crawford in the 2nd round.

2002: Their first pick was Babchuck, but they did find Duncan Keith in the 2nd round.

 

OK, so we can jettison the notion that the Blackhawks were loading up on talent for years before they finally bottomed out in 2007 to get Patrick Kane. These five years aren't super impressive if you look past Kane (1st overall) and Toews (3rd overall).

 

But maybe they kept drafting really well right after they took Patrick Kane, right? Wrong.

 

2008: Kyle Beach in the 1st round. Has never played an NHL game. Shawn Lalonde has played 1 NHL game and Ben Smith has played 23 NHL games. That's what they have to show for 2008.

2009: Dylan Olsen in the 1st round. Has played 28 NHL games with 1 career assist to show for it. Marcus Kruger in the 5th round.

2010: Joakim Nordstrom has played 5 NHL games.

 

So it was NOT a long rebuild. They got drafted their two key guys in 2006 and 2007 and made a few key trades in that same time frame (Patrick Sharp acquired from the Flyers in December 2005).

 

It doesn't take 5+ years to rebuild a hockey team. There's no reason the Sabres can't be a playoff team in 3 years.

 

Also, just to keep injecting facts into the discussion:

The Maple Leafs drafted 5th overall in 2012 and were in the playoffs last year.

The Canadiens drafted 3rd overall in 2012 and were also in the playoffs last year.

[waldo]

 

You "assume" they drafted high? Why not just look it up before posting a long rant comprised entirely of sentence fragments and bizarre punctuation?

 

Here, I'll do the research you didn't. This is their draft history:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005218.html

 

2007: Drafted Kane 1st overall. They have have a combined 10 NHL games out of the other guys they took that year.

2006: Toews 3rd overall. No one else from that draft class has played an NHL game.

2005: Their first pick was Jack Skille at 7th overall. He's a superstar, right? The only contributor they got that year was Hjalmarsson (4th round pick).

2004: They took Cam Barker 3rd overall. He spent time in the AHL last year. They did find Bolland and Bickell in the 2nd round, but those are role players.

2003: The legendary draft year. They got Seabrook 14th overall and Corey Crawford in the 2nd round.

2002: Their first pick was Babchuck, but they did find Duncan Keith in the 2nd round.

 

OK, so we can jettison the notion that the Blackhawks were loading up on talent for years before they finally bottomed out in 2007 to get Patrick Kane. These five years aren't super impressive if you look past Kane (1st overall) and Toews (3rd overall).

 

But maybe they kept drafting really well right after they took Patrick Kane, right? Wrong.

 

2008: Kyle Beach in the 1st round. Has never played an NHL game. Shawn Lalonde has played 1 NHL game and Ben Smith has played 23 NHL games. That's what they have to show for 2008.

2009: Dylan Olsen in the 1st round. Has played 28 NHL games with 1 career assist to show for it. Marcus Kruger in the 5th round.

2010: Joakim Nordstrom has played 5 NHL games.

 

So it was NOT a long rebuild. They got drafted their two key guys in 2006 and 2007 and made a few key trades in that same time frame (Patrick Sharp acquired from the Flyers in December 2005).

 

It doesn't take 5+ years to rebuild a hockey team. There's no reason the Sabres can't be a playoff team in 3 years.

 

Also, just to keep injecting facts into the discussion:

The Maple Leafs drafted 5th overall in 2012 and were in the playoffs last year.

The Canadiens drafted 3rd overall in 2012 and were also in the playoffs last year.

 

you win ..three years and the cup..who am i to impose upon your fantasy...lol

 

 

True Chicago built their team through trade (That was my point ,all those picks were useful), the draft (there are some picks you keep) and the UFA market (all those picks come in handy again). It took longer than three years to assemble the required talent. That was my point when i mentioned the years of draft picks (capital) Their run did not happen because Johnny and Patrick showed up one day.

 

What are the odds of a top five pick becoming an elite franchise player? hmmmmmmmm If the Sabres had Kane post Vanek, they would have one third of a top line and one top six player.Have the Sabres been successful in the UFA market.How would you rate thier trades.. how many top six players, first pair defensemen?

 

My spelling and typing is this way because i want it that way knowing that it bothers people like you.

 

Tell me.. what pieces do the Sabres have on their roster minus Miller and Vanek? What are the odds there is a franchise player in the top five next year. How many development years will it take to know?

[LGR4GM]

you win ..three years and the cup..who am i to impose upon your fantasy...lol

 

 

Chicago built their team through trade (all those picks), the draft and the UFA market (all those picks). It took longer than three years to assemble the required talent.

 

Tell me.. what pieces do the Sabres have on their roster minus Miller and Vanek?

That is a loaded question. What pieces did Chicago have in 2007?

[Robviously]

you win ..three years and the cup..who am i to impose upon your fantasy...lol

Actually, I win because you didn't even bother to research what you were talking about and got caught.

 

And I never said they'd win the Cup in 3 years, but of course you know that. (Nice try.)

 

Chicago built their team through trade (all those picks were useful), the draft (there are some you keep) and the UFA market (all those picks come in handy again). It took longer than three years to assemble the required talent. Their run did not happen because Johnny and Patrick showed up one day.

Of course, I never said this either. But they did go from bottoming out (1st overall pick) all the way to Champion in exactly 3 years.

 

And your rebuild doesn't start when you bottom out. It should already be underway by then.

 

What are the odds of a top five pick becoming an elite franchise player? hmmmmmmmm If the Sabres had Kane post Vanek, they would have one third of a top line and one top six player.

You tell me. You're the guy who likes to say things without researching them.

 

Tell me.. what pieces do the Sabres have on their roster minus Miller and Vanek? What are the odds there is a franchise player in the top five next year. How many development years will it take to know?

If you're not familiar with the young players the Sabres have drafted or traded for in the past 2-3 seasons, that's on you. How many of them reach their potential is anyone's guess but there's no reason they can't be a playoff team in 3 years.

 

And, again, it's worth noting Montreal drafted 3rd overall in 2012 and won the division last year. Things can change pretty quickly in the NHL.

[waldo]

 

Actually, I win because you didn't even bother to research what you were talking about and got caught.

 

And I never said they'd win the Cup in 3 years, but of course you know that. (Nice try.)

 

 

Of course, I never said this either. But they did go from bottoming out (1st overall pick) all the way to Champion in exactly 3 years.

 

And your rebuild doesn't start when you bottom out. It should already be underway by then.

 

 

You tell me. You're the guy who likes to say things without researching them.

 

 

If you're not familiar with the young players the Sabres have drafted or traded for in the past 2-3 seasons, that's on you. How many of them reach their potential is anyone's guess but there's no reason they can't be a playoff team in 3 years.

And, again, it's worth noting Montreal drafted 3rd overall in 2012 and won the division last year. Things can change pretty quickly in the NHL.

 

Post Vanek and Miller ,and probably Ott if he is smart ,they will not be a playoff team in three years without a infusion of significant numbers of mature, established NHL talent though trade and the ufa market. .. take it to the bank.. We let Miller , Vanek and probably Ott go so that we can acquire similarly skilled players in a ground up rebuild, meaning draft, trade and the ufa market...lol ya gotta love it

 

 

That is a loaded question. What pieces did Chicago have in 2007?

 

2007-08 or did you mean 8-9? you know where it is...your point?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CHI/2008.html

[waldo]

 

Actually, I win because you didn't even bother to research what you were talking about and got caught.

 

And I never said they'd win the Cup in 3 years, but of course you know that. (Nice try.)

 

 

Of course, I never said this either. But they did go from bottoming out (1st overall pick) all the way to Champion in exactly 3 years.

 

And your rebuild doesn't start when you bottom out. It should already be underway by then.

 

 

You tell me. You're the guy who likes to say things without researching them.

 

 

If you're not familiar with the young players the Sabres have drafted or traded for in the past 2-3 seasons, that's on you. How many of them reach their potential is anyone's guess but there's no reason they can't be a playoff team in 3 years.

 

And, again, it's worth noting Montreal drafted 3rd overall in 2012 and won the division last year. Things can change pretty quickly in the NHL.

 

your are comparing the Sabres organization to Montreal? have another drink

 

I would have held, Pom, Vanek, possibly Miller, and i would be trading a number of our recent picks to include Myers and, Grigs if the deal was right. Possibly one other with the right return. Ennis Stafford, and Weber are on my trade list too . Leino gets traded or bought out.

 

Not familar with our young players. lol

 

Yes it can happen in three years..but not from ground up which is what he has sold the gas driller. .

 

We will talk in five years again..

[nfreeman]

To return to the point of this thread before the wee-wee contest flared up, I heard Bucky say on shredd & Ragan that Vanek lives in Minny in the offseason and his wife is from there. If those statements are correct -- in particular if his wife's family lives there -- then I think he will end up there.

 

They will be locking themselves in with an expensive core in Parise, Suter, Pommer, Vanek and Koivu -- and I'd rather have another center and another defenseman instead of 3 expensive wingers -- but it's still a pretty good core unless they start to age soon. It's certainly a better core than Vanek, Pommer, Roy, Hecht and Stafford, which is what DR gave us when he got the keys away from TP and LQ.

[Robviously]

your are comparing the Sabres organization to Montreal? have another drink

Is there a reason we can't compare the Sabres to the Habs? Which NHL teams are we allowed to look at for parallels to our current situation, and why?

 

I would have held, Pom, Vanek, possibly Miller, and i would be trading a number of our recent picks to include Myers and, Grigs if the deal was right. Possibly one other with the right return. Ennis Stafford, and Weber are on my trade list too . Leino gets traded or bought out.

 

Not familar with our young players. lol

Yes, everyone on this board has their own ideas about what should have happened by now and what should happen moving forward. Not sure what that has to do with "can it happen in 3 years" though.

 

Yes it can happen in three years..but not from ground up which is what he has sold the gas driller. .

 

We will talk in five years again..

The bold part is true (obviously) and really the only point I was making. Thanks for coming around.

 

Not sure what "but not from the ground up which is what he has sold the gas driller. ." means, but I doubt this is an important or insightful point.

[waldo]

To return to the point of this thread before the wee-wee contest flared up, I heard Bucky say on shredd & Ragan that Vanek lives in Minny in the offseason and his wife is from there. If those statements are correct -- in particular if his wife's family lives there -- then I think he will end up there.

 

They will be locking themselves in with an expensive core in Parise, Suter, Pommer, Vanek and Koivu -- and I'd rather have another center and another defenseman instead of 3 expensive wingers -- but it's still a pretty good core unless they start to age soon. It's certainly a better core than Vanek, Pommer, Roy, Hecht and Stafford, which is what DR gave us when he got the keys away from TP and LQ.

 

50/50.... we will know soon enough where he goes...as long as he plays with real first or second line talent i really do not care.

[waldo]

Is there a reason we can't compare the Sabres to the Habs? Which NHL teams are we allowed to look at for parallels to our current situation, and why?

 

 

Yes, everyone on this board has their own ideas about what should have happened by now and what should happen moving forward. Not sure what that has to do with "can it happen in 3 years" though.

 

 

The bold part is true (obviously) and really the only point I was making. Thanks for coming around.

 

Not sure what "but not from the ground up which is what he has sold the gas driller. ." means, but I doubt this is an important or insightful point.

 

the wall wins the argument again....i concede..you were right, i was very wrong. i apologize for raising your blood pressure or blurring your vision. i am sorry my telephone typing skills are not up to you standards and my punctuation grates on you, I am sorry that i did not see the similarities between the Montreal and Sabres organizations that you imagined, or between Chicago and the Sabres. I am sorry that i did not realize that Chicago turned things around in three years .........or that your life may have not turned out the way you wanted it to .. .........or that you are an unhappy or perhaps an only child............................or that i just put too many periods in a row and you are upset again............or that i use or too much.........................you win, you win ......lol

 

please end this exchange...please

[Iron Crotch]

Garth posted a nice article about Vanek and Pommer... http://www.hockeybuz...88#.UlsW6RCBxjt

[Hoss]

I don't doubt they'll have some of that 15 mil. You cannot say with a certainty that 70 mil will be the cap ceiling as I cannot say it will not be. But I'm not looking at merely next season. I'm considering the follow up years to that as well. Vanek, Pomers, Parise, Suter while seemingly a good core to build around will take up an overwhelming amount of cap space. See the Pittsburg Penguins for how that works out. Just saying, it's more likely to go that route then the other if history is any indicator.

 

Doesn't matter if it doesn't go up to 70 mill. They'll still have $15 mill of cap space. If it goes up to $70 mill, they'll have $30 mill in cap space.

[HopefulFuture]

Doesn't matter if it doesn't go up to 70 mill. They'll still have $15 mill of cap space. If it goes up to $70 mill, they'll have $30 mill in cap space.

 

Actually, it does matter. When you look 3 to 5 years out, with other talent having to be brought in, at a price, to attempt to complete the process of a cup contender, it matters a great deal. I'm not against your point of what Minny is attempting to do, it's a solid track, but I'm also a realist when it comes to money and a ceiling to spend it within. For Minny, it's better than 50/50 that they'll compete in the playoffs, but, as I pointed out, like the Penguins and several other teams, it's not a 100% for sure thing. Not to mention if they need tweaking, it most likely will hem them in to a large extent.

 

It's neither here nor there as of now. It's all speculation on all our parts at this time, but in the end, I'll stand by my current analysis of the situation until I see real movement in progress to adjust accordingly.