GAME DISCUSSION THREAD GDT: Columbus at Buffalo 10-10-13 at 7:00 PM

[JJFIVEOH]

I do remember *lots* of people wishing for the Sabres to bottom out last year for the draft pick, with or without trading people. (I don't remember what my stand was, but I can see the benefit both ways). So I guess my question is: what did all the bottom-out folks think was going to happen? The team would add a pick or two and suddenly be contenders?

 

I'd like to know as well.

 

I wanted a rebuild but not a total gutting of the franchise where you are almost like an expansion team.

 

This is hardly a total gutting.

[SabresBillsFan]

 

 

I'd like to know as well.

 

 

 

This is hardly a total gutting.

 

Once Vanek, Miller and possibly Ott leave I call that a total gut job. When you can't score goals and this team looks worse than all the Edmonton teams with top picks all those years yeah it's a gut job. We haven't even seen the bottom yet. That happens when Possibly all 3 are gone.

[dEnnis the Menace]

I wanted a rebuild but not a total gutting of the franchise where you are almost like an expansion team.

 

we're not a the level of total gutting. But it does feel like we're almost an expansion team right now. For a couple of games we've been competitive all night (see: Ottawa game, Tampa Bay game). Last night, it looked like we didn't even belong on the ice at times, and same as Pitt game.

[waldo]

looks like its chicken little time ....

[darksabre]

 

on? how much this team sucks? if you trust darcy? if seal team 6 would have defeated lord voldemort years before harry potter did?

 

Maybe current satisfaction with the rebuild, if you wanted a rebuild or not, the level/length of rebuild you would prefer, and whether or not you want Darcy doing it. I like charts.

[Assquatch]

I do remember *lots* of people wishing for the Sabres to bottom out last year for the draft pick, with or without trading people. (I don't remember what my stand was, but I can see the benefit both ways). So I guess my question is: what did all the bottom-out folks think was going to happen? The team would add a pick or two and suddenly be contenders?

No, but at least you'd have that talent on the roster moving forward. Every season the team doesn't make the playoffs, but also isn't bad enough to acquire top talent is bad for the long-term.

[TrueBlueGED]

I do remember *lots* of people wishing for the Sabres to bottom out last year for the draft pick, with or without trading people. (I don't remember what my stand was, but I can see the benefit both ways). So I guess my question is: what did all the bottom-out folks think was going to happen? The team would add a pick or two and suddenly be contenders?

 

As one of the bottom out folks, I can clearly state that we didn't get what we wanted--the team never actually bottomed out, they went an on ill-fated loser point run instead. So it's really not even a fair question. Despite that little detail, I'll answer the question anyway: I expected the team to suck this year with or without MacKinnon. The difference is, with a MacKinnon-type player, there's a foundation to build from, and hope going forward that you have a player who can elevate others. Without that player, it's a wish and a prayer that you hit on that 1% chance you get a cornerstone somewhere other than the top of the draft.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

Maybe current satisfaction with the rebuild, if you wanted a rebuild or not, the level/length of rebuild you would prefer, and whether or not you want Darcy doing it. I like charts.

 

You actually liked my idea with such a deep draft. I said trade Vanek/Miller/Myers/Stafford. We couldn't buyout Lieono because he was hurt and hadn't traded for Tallinder or resigned Hodgson. In return for those 4 guys, you would have picked up at least another 3 1st rounders, plus who knows. You would have had $33 million in cap space freed up to go into a FA marketplace where the salary cap was artificially lower FOR ONLY 1 YEAR, contenders had to let guys walk because they were over the cap, and the Sabres planned on being bad anyway.

 

You draft 10 guys in the first 2 rounds, let them all develop in juniors and the AHL the next 2-3 years along with your current young players not quite ready, you use the $33 million to sign a mix of younger possible impact guys (Clarkson,etc.), and older veterans with a history of winning, even if they are over the hill (Briere, Vinny, Iginla, Ference, Jagr, etc.). Even if you had to overpay those guys 20%+ to come to Buffalo for 3-4 years, you would still have been able to sign 5 or 6 name free agents who could guide the now overstocked cupboard of young guys who would then have the culture and skillset to fully compete 3-4 years from now when they are 21-24 instead of being thrown to the wolves as babies. At that time, all the overpriced vet contracts would be ready to come off the books.

 

A lot of people liked the idea. Many said it was stupid. All I know is that once again, not only does the GM not have any vision or creativity whatsoever, but the poor fans are being forced to eat the turdiest of turdburgers this season it looks like.

 

I thought Rolston might have been ok, but it looks like so many Sabres in the past, he did ok on instinct, novelty and chaos by being thrown into a situation...and when the dust settles, it's the SOS. Blah!

[LTS]

I'm just gonna go ahead and say they'd be the exact same team. The same goes for Bowman, Quenneville, Laviolette, Tortorella, or Al freakin' Arbour--the coach of this team is 100% irrelevant.

 

I disagree there. I think the team would be better. I'm not say incredibly better but I've referenced some of the "system" stuff they've been doing that is all on Rolston as near as I can tell.

 

I understand your point and certainly agree with you. Coaching is also a factor with regard to system, discipline, structure, and the level of respect a coach commands.

 

Roy > RR every time.

 

Based on current results I agree. But I've not seen Roy coach and given the talent disparity between Colorado and Buffalo it's hard to say. The Avs massively underachieved last season, the Sabres probably overachieved. The Sabres are, essentially, the same team that finished last season. They looked better then than they do now. Something is rotten in the State of Denmark.

 

Explain then.

 

So I wasn't on this original part but I wanted to chime in. I didn't want the team to bottom out last year. The problem I've had this year is that it seems Rolston has this this team all screwed up. The players don't appear to be on the same page. One player is dumping the puck when no one is chasing. Turnover. A defenseman hits a forward who is standing still and is covered. Turnover. Players miss each other because they keep throwing passes all over the ice. Turnover. Given that this is pretty much the same team as last year (adding Ristolainen and Girgensons who have actually looked decent) then I have to look somewhere.

 

Either the Miller/Vanek/Ott status is very concerning to people or Rolston has done something with how he is approaching this team. I had faith last season to give Darcy a chance and I thought his draft looked really good. At the time I supported keeping Rolston based on what I saw at the end of last year. However, in 5 games I've seen some mind boggling decisions by Rolston and if this is the best he is going to be when I freely admit I was wrong about him. The bigger problem is that Regier was also wrong about him and that's a huge mistake when you need to find a coach that can handle turning the team around. So, right now, I'm tired of the crap I see. Myers should be scratched, and not just for 2-3 games. I'd put him waaaaay down the list. Let him sit for 9 games while Zadarov plays even. He clearly isn't getting the message. Rolston is not making good decisions on his lineups.

 

At this point, I'm confident that this team is better than they are playing but not while Rolston is pulling the strings.

[Taro T]

All Buffalo had to do is gut the dead weight and build around your good players. Stafford, Leino, and a handful of others still need to go. But to lose all your good players(which you know Vanek and Miller are gone)and to start from scratch is brutal. Ottawa at least did the rebuild the right way. They had Spezza still under contract with Karlsson two building blocks moving forward. But to have none in the direction the Sabres are heading is beyond stupid. You people can't tell me this is exciting to watch. I'm all for getting a couple of top three picks in the next couple of drafts but at least have a team that's alittle entertaining to watch. Even the Oilers and Avs had some great games to watch the last few years but this team could set the league low for goals scored in a season. It's bad folks. Plus who in the hell trust Darcy with a rebuild ? I for one don't. I know people don't like Brian Burke but he turned that Leafs team around and Nonis is getting most of the credit.

 

 

 

You hit the nail on the head. This is how I feel as well but I have never seen a team in all my years of watching hockey could be as bad as the team we are watching right now. There not even exciting to watch. All your offense comes from pretty much Vanek and once he leaves you have nothing. Hodgson is going to be totally lost when Vanek goes.

You don't recall the Fall of '86? That team under Bowman and Ramsay was playing about as bad as anybody could. They looked good under Sator until they ran out of gas at the end and couldn't quite catch the Nords and landed Sneaky Pete.

 

This team isn't good, but I'd put the 2nd 1/2 of '73-'74 or 1st 1/2 of '86-'87 'ahead' of this start for poor nonentertaining play. '73-'74 is when Horton died and Perreault broke his leg. The were some other guys that missed significant time like Crozier and Larry Mickey. That was a rough year for a young team after a good start.

[TrueBlueGED]

First it was Lindy's system. Now it's Rolston's system. At what point is the roster, as a cohesive unit, just crap?

[North Buffalo]

I disagree there. I think the team would be better. I'm not say incredibly better but I've referenced some of the "system" stuff they've been doing that is all on Rolston as near as I can tell.

 

 

 

Based on current results I agree. But I've not seen Roy coach and given the talent disparity between Colorado and Buffalo it's hard to say. The Avs massively underachieved last season, the Sabres probably overachieved. The Sabres are, essentially, the same team that finished last season. They looked better then than they do now. Something is rotten in the State of Denmark.

 

 

 

So I wasn't on this original part but I wanted to chime in. I didn't want the team to bottom out last year. The problem I've had this year is that it seems Rolston has this this team all screwed up. The players don't appear to be on the same page. One player is dumping the puck when no one is chasing. Turnover. A defenseman hits a forward who is standing still and is covered. Turnover. Players miss each other because they keep throwing passes all over the ice. Turnover. Given that this is pretty much the same team as last year (adding Ristolainen and Girgensons who have actually looked decent) then I have to look somewhere.

 

Either the Miller/Vanek/Ott status is very concerning to people or Rolston has done something with how he is approaching this team. I had faith last season to give Darcy a chance and I thought his draft looked really good. At the time I supported keeping Rolston based on what I saw at the end of last year. However, in 5 games I've seen some mind boggling decisions by Rolston and if this is the best he is going to be when I freely admit I was wrong about him. The bigger problem is that Regier was also wrong about him and that's a huge mistake when you need to find a coach that can handle turning the team around. So, right now, I'm tired of the crap I see. Myers should be scratched, and not just for 2-3 games. I'd put him waaaaay down the list. Let him sit for 9 games while Zadarov plays even. He clearly isn't getting the message. Rolston is not making good decisions on his lineups.

 

At this point, I'm confident that this team is better than they are playing but not while Rolston is pulling the strings.

 

And with that I am going to take a break from this board and made the executive decision to take a break from my rabid support for wanting the Sabres to win. I love hockey and will still watch ocassionally, but I can no longer participate in this insanity, following a manager and a team that doesn't know its backside from a hole in the ground... Oh well and bye bye....:(

[JJFIVEOH]

You actually liked my idea with such a deep draft. I said trade Vanek/Miller/Myers/Stafford. We couldn't buyout Lieono because he was hurt and hadn't traded for Tallinder or resigned Hodgson. In return for those 4 guys, you would have picked up at least another 3 1st rounders, plus who knows. You would have had $33 million in cap space freed up to go into a FA marketplace where the salary cap was artificially lower FOR ONLY 1 YEAR, contenders had to let guys walk because they were over the cap, and the Sabres planned on being bad anyway.

 

You draft 10 guys in the first 2 rounds, let them all develop in juniors and the AHL the next 2-3 years along with your current young players not quite ready, you use the $33 million to sign a mix of younger possible impact guys (Clarkson,etc.), and older veterans with a history of winning, even if they are over the hill (Briere, Vinny, Iginla, Ference, Jagr, etc.). Even if you had to overpay those guys 20%+ to come to Buffalo for 3-4 years, you would still have been able to sign 5 or 6 name free agents who could guide the now overstocked cupboard of young guys who would then have the culture and skillset to fully compete 3-4 years from now when they are 21-24 instead of being thrown to the wolves as babies. At that time, all the overpriced vet contracts would be ready to come off the books.

 

A lot of people liked the idea. Many said it was stupid. All I know is that once again, not only does the GM not have any vision or creativity whatsoever, but the poor fans are being forced to eat the turdiest of turdburgers this season it looks like.

 

I thought Rolston might have been ok, but it looks like so many Sabres in the past, he did ok on instinct, novelty and chaos by being thrown into a situation...and when the dust settles, it's the SOS. Blah!

 

The rest thought it was totally inconceivable.

[nfreeman]

You actually liked my idea with such a deep draft. I said trade Vanek/Miller/Myers/Stafford. We couldn't buyout Lieono because he was hurt and hadn't traded for Tallinder or resigned Hodgson. In return for those 4 guys, you would have picked up at least another 3 1st rounders, plus who knows. You would have had $33 million in cap space freed up to go into a FA marketplace where the salary cap was artificially lower FOR ONLY 1 YEAR, contenders had to let guys walk because they were over the cap, and the Sabres planned on being bad anyway.

 

You draft 10 guys in the first 2 rounds, let them all develop in juniors and the AHL the next 2-3 years along with your current young players not quite ready, you use the $33 million to sign a mix of younger possible impact guys (Clarkson,etc.), and older veterans with a history of winning, even if they are over the hill (Briere, Vinny, Iginla, Ference, Jagr, etc.). Even if you had to overpay those guys 20%+ to come to Buffalo for 3-4 years, you would still have been able to sign 5 or 6 name free agents who could guide the now overstocked cupboard of young guys who would then have the culture and skillset to fully compete 3-4 years from now when they are 21-24 instead of being thrown to the wolves as babies. At that time, all the overpriced vet contracts would be ready to come off the books.

 

A lot of people liked the idea. Many said it was stupid. All I know is that once again, not only does the GM not have any vision or creativity whatsoever, but the poor fans are being forced to eat the turdiest of turdburgers this season it looks like.

 

I thought Rolston might have been ok, but it looks like so many Sabres in the past, he did ok on instinct, novelty and chaos by being thrown into a situation...and when the dust settles, it's the SOS. Blah!

 

I liked this plan a lot more than I liked what we actually ended up doing, which was basically nothing other than trading Pommer.

 

I absolutely wanted a different GM in before the deadline last year so the new guy could make his imprint early.

 

I continue to think an executive committee of posters here would do a better job than DR.

 

First it was Lindy's system. Now it's Rolston's system. At what point is the roster, as a cohesive unit, just crap?

 

It's not either/or, and I think you know this.

 

It's not a good roster, but better coaching probably could get more out of them.

 

OTOH, I also believe that a number of the Sabres' wins/points under RR last year were the result of teams taking the Sabres lightly. It's human nature to take your foot off the gas when you don't respect your opponent. That hasn't been the case yet this year because IMHO teams tend to start the season with more intensity than they have later in the year.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

First it was Lindy's system. Now it's Rolston's system. At what point is the roster, as a cohesive unit, just crap?

 

Oh, it is crappy, but one of the reasons we can't get "compete" is because we had the same culture of Groupthink running the show the past 16 years. You had to have a decisive and complete gutting of the old core and all things that reminded everyone of the status quo, soft way of playing. We have done it one by one over the past 3 years....3 years wasted.

 

I never said Lindy was a BAD coach. I said between his philosophy and Darcy's, this squad would never have the oomph to be a true Cup contender. I think this team played hard for 25 games under Rolston last year....but he was thrown into it and it looks like either the guys aren't buying into his "play hard" system, or he just looked better because of going off instinct without knowing guys last year.

 

A few of us said from day #1 when Pegula got here....fire Darcy AND Lindy, trade off the core, and start the rebuild then. We are into year 4, and just starting the bottoming out process. Darcy is still doing it half-assed as now we will have Miller and Vanek wilting on the vine, and any value for Myers or Stafford is now gone.

 

People wonder why I have always been "negative"....because you can kneel down and feel the train coming full speed as you touch the rail while everyone is dancing on the tracks....

[TrueBlueGED]

It's not a good roster, but better coaching probably could get more out of them.

 

OTOH, I also believe that a number of the Sabres' wins/points under RR last year were the result of teams taking the Sabres lightly. It's human nature to take your foot off the gas when you don't respect your opponent. That hasn't been the case yet this year because IMHO teams tend to start the season with more intensity than they have later in the year.

 

Disclaimer: I'm very much a players > coach person, probably to the tune of 90% of team success is the players, at least in hockey.

 

In almost every situation I don't believe in absolutes, and this team is no different...but it's damn close. Maybe a different coach/system could have eked out a win over Tampa, but that's about it. I truly believe we have some talented players here, who if each were in a more favorable situation, could do quite well. But they're all here, together. We have almost no quality puck possession players, a bunch of kids who shouldn't be in the NHL yet, forwards playing a line above their ability and who have little to negative defensive value.

 

A different system doesn't change any of that--the construction of the team just doesn't allow coaching to matter at all IMO. We don't have the talent to play an open game, we don't have the defensive acumen to play a lock down defensive game, and we don't even have enough defensive players to specialize in player usage. This isn't snark at all, but I have no idea what any coach is supposed to do to get anything more out of this roster.

 

Edit: posting from my phone, I have no idea how I snipped the first part of your post. Apologies. Also, I completely agree with your last paragraph. We've become the team that other teams play down to.

[bcsaberks]

As one of the bottom out folks, I can clearly state that we didn't get what we wanted--the team never actually bottomed out, they went an on ill-fated loser point run instead. So it's really not even a fair question. Despite that little detail, I'll answer the question anyway: I expected the team to suck this year with or without MacKinnon. The difference is, with a MacKinnon-type player, there's a foundation to build from, and hope going forward that you have a player who can elevate others. Without that player, it's a wish and a prayer that you hit on that 1% chance you get a cornerstone somewhere other than the top of the draft.

 

What stings is that Myers (yes not a top 3 pick, but ear-marked as one of the pieces) is a big part of the problem now. Bottom out, sure, but a 4 year vet leading the way to suck? Ugh.

[TrueBlueGED]

What stings is that Myers (yes not a top 3 pick, but ear-marked as one of the pieces) is a big part of the problem now. Bottom out, sure, but a 4 year vet leading the way to suck? Ugh.

 

Indeed. Sadly, he's my only current jersey. So it's either back to the Hasek goathead or the Miller USA jersey, both of which, luckily, have substantial staying power.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

And with that I am going to take a break from this board and made the executive decision to take a break from my rabid support for wanting the Sabres to win. I love hockey and will still watch ocassionally, but I can no longer participate in this insanity, following a manager and a team that doesn't know its backside from a hole in the ground... Oh well and bye bye....:(

 

Don't leave just yet. Pegula is busy in Penn State and will be buzzing off the high of that for a week or so....but if the Sabres keep this up for another 2 weeks or so....there may actually be pitchforks out, forcing him to do something about it.

 

Other than the quality people here, that has pretty much been the only reason to hold onto real hope and come here.

[TrueBlueGED]

Don't leave just yet. Pegula is busy in Penn State and will be buzzing off the high of that for a week or so....but if the Sabres keep this up for another 2 weeks or so....there may actually be pitchforks out, forcing him to do something about it.

 

Other than the quality people here, that has pretty much been the only reason to hold onto real hope and come here.

 

I honestly think any forced move on his part is 100% dependent upon internal expectations. If they really did expect suffering, and the plan is a total bottom out, I think they weather the storm of fan backlash. But if they thought they were better than this, say a fringe playoff team, then maybe...

[SabresBillsFan]

I see Pegs doing nothing. It's painfully obvious the worst is yet to come with Vanek, Miller and possibly Ott all leaving. It's going to be bad enough with Vanek and Miller gone that's going to take a long rebuild. Reinhart even taken 1st overall in 2014 won't be ready and even if you land McDavid in 2015 your still talking years before both of them developing and contributing on a game per game basis. It's going to be sometime before we see the playoffs the way this boat is going.

[Taro T]

Disclaimer: I'm very much a players > coach person, probably to the tune of 90

% of success is the players, at least in hockey.

 

In almost every situation I don't believe in absolutes, and this team is no different...but it's damn close. Maybe a different coach/system could have eked out a win over Tampa, but that's about it. I truly believe we have some talented players here, who if each were in a more favorable situation, could do quite well. But they're all here, together. We have almost no quality puck possession players, a bunch of kids who shouldn't be in the NHL yet, forwards playing a line above their ability and who have little to negative defensive value.

 

A different system doesn't change any of that--the construction of the team just doesn't allow coaching to matter at all IMO. We don't have the talent to play an open game, we don't have the defensive acumen to play a lock down defensive game, and we don't even have enough defensive players to specialize in player usage. This isn't snark at all, but I have no idea what any coach is supposed to do to get anything more out of this roster.

 

Edit: posting from my phone, I have no idea how I snipped the first part of your post. Apologies. Also, I completely agree with your last paragraph. We've become the team that other teams play down to.

If not for a bad high sticking call, RR would have had a W by now. Another coach that would have been willing to change his D pairings when they weren't working might have eeked out a victory last night. Waiting until it was 4-1 was way too late to make a change IMHO.

 

They SHOULD be 2-2. They aren't. Considering that playoffs were a long shot this year at best, maybe a few extra L's up front offset the inevitable charge to the 10th overall pick and they end up with top 5-7 instead.

[SabresBillsFan]

 

If not for a bad high sticking call, RR would have had a W by now. Another coach that would have been willing to change his D pairings when they weren't working might have eeked out a victory last night. Waiting until it was 4-1 was way too late to make a change IMHO.

 

They SHOULD be 2-2. They aren't. Considering that playoffs were a long shot this year at best, maybe a few extra L's up front offset the inevitable charge to the 10th overall pick and they end up with top 5-7 instead.

 

With no one else scoring besides Vanek there is no reason why they don't finish with a top 3 pick.

[Taro T]

With no one else scoring besides Vanek there is no reason why they don't finish with a top 3 pick.

They aren't going to only score 82 goals this year. Though it doesn't look like they'll win a game at this point, I'd be surprised if they end up bottom 3 unless they trade Miller & Vanek by Thanksgiving. (The real one, not that funny one the Canucks celebrate next week. ;))

[Stoner]

I honestly think any forced move on his part is 100% dependent upon internal expectations. If they really did expect suffering, and the plan is a total bottom out, I think they weather the storm of fan backlash. But if they thought they were better than this, say a fringe playoff team, then maybe...

 

Just like the turdburger (where was that when I wanted to rhyme something with Umberger!?), I have no doubt the organization knew what the fan reaction was going to be. They've planned for it. They've girded for it. An open revolt of season ticket holder next offseason might be a game-changer on the business side, but I'd expect Terry to stick to his guns in the face of millions of lost revenue (and almost admire him for it).

 

The problem remains that Terry firing Darcy is practically Terry firing himself. Terry ain't goin' nowhere. Inexplicably, unfathomably, unfrickenbelievably, I think Darcy the Cat has years left to live.